Martial artists who act vs. actors who fight - Bulletproof Monk (2003) Discussion

[–] brutalmuscle 22 years ago

Darn right, I'm so sick of these sorry atempts by ACTORS to TRY to do gung fu, it's really irritating if some ACTOR is supposed to be a REAL martial artist's equal. That reaaalllllly ticks me off.

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[–] illeatyourdog 22 years ago

Matt Damon did a god job I think. And the actors do go through intense training, yes even Ben Affleck, but you have to remember that they only train for like 4 or 6 months. So obviously, 6 months of training will not look as impressive as a lifetime of training.

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[–] mystique_3 22 years ago

I think Keanu Reeves did a good job in the matrix. I'm not sure how much training he had though. I do find it annoying though when some actors think they know everything after learning a few moves.(not pointing the finger at sean w s though cos i luv him!) The best martial arts fighter I have seen is Jackie Chan, he is ace in rush hour 1 and 2.

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[–] KoondoggSaints 22 years ago

The only thing worse then an actor who cant fight is a fighter that cant act. Action films can teach an actor to throw a punch a lot easier then they can teach a martial artist to speak english and/or act. I like authentic martial arts in a movie as much as the next guy but I also hate terrible acting, so an actor trying to do martial arts is better then a martial artist trying to act. This is why I am a big Wesley Snipes fan, he is a decent actor and he is a true martial artist. Why is it do you think that a movie like DareDevil is so successful and a movie like Operation Condor sucks, because good acting is much better then accurate martial arts. Jean Claude Van Damn happens to suck at both of these.

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[–] illeatyourdog 22 years ago

The reasons why Daredevil is more popular then Operation Condor are becuase 1)It is American made and got better advertisement 2)American audiences dont have the patience for eityher dubbing or subtitles 3)Operation Condor was out for years in China before anyone, in America, knew anything of jackie Chan (unless they have seen Cannibal 1&2 or The Protector) and only git released in the U.S. after the success of Rumble in the Bronx and Rush Hour 4)teenage girls perferr to see Ben Affleck in tights then true and amazing stuntwork 5)DareDevil has Jennifer Garner 6)Operation Condor does not suck, Jackie Chan does more amazing stunts and fighting in the first 5 minutes, then ben Affleck does in the entire movie of Daredevil and he did not use or need CGI 7)Most Jackie Chan movies are meanmt to be comedic and slapstick which people either love or hate. And by the way, Ben Affleck isnt that great of an actor either and judgin by the way the action scenes were edited and shot in Daredevil, one can assume that his fighting was not too impressive too watch which forced the director to use really close shots and other tricks to fool people to thinking what Ben was doing was actually impressive.

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[–] HtosDrol 22 years ago

You forgot Jackie Chan's greatest role in the 1980's classic, "Cannonball Run".

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[–] bananaman2000 22 years ago

Operation Condor suck? If you are talking about the dubbed, re-edited version that was released in the West, you can't judge it for it's acting since you can't even hear the original dialogue. Operation Condor kicks Daredevils ass. And besides, the acting in Daredevil wasn't great anyway. It wasn't a very good film. It was pretty damn rotten.

Whether you love or hate the Matrix, it is the movie that popularized actors fighting. It started the trend. It worked in the Matrix. It did not work in Daredevil. It looked bad. Ben Affleck looked awkward, no matter how rapidly the editing was.

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[–] S-Reisner 18 years ago

van damne is the best non asian martial artist ever. i love those sick kickboxing moves he pulls. Matt Damon and Keanu Reeves both did good jobs (though i hate Keanu Reeves) in thier films, i loved watching Damon take down those security guards in bourne identity, i thought he moved quite fast and almost as good as Jet Li, Keanu had outstanding fight scenes in MAtrix reloaded which is one of the best movies ever. Though none live up to thier Asian predecessors (Bruce, Brandon, Jet, Jackie, Chow, Robin, TOny), these actors are outstanding at martial arts (except affleck and garner)

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[–] MtnMan13 9 years ago

Jean Claude Van Damn happens to suck at both of these.

No comment on his acting, but I'm pretty sure Van Damme was a very successful competitive kickboxer.

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[–] lartrak 22 years ago

I should mention that Chow Yun-Fat doesn't really have any training as a kung fu fighter. Not everyone from Hong Kong does. He looks like an oaf in many fight scenes in his early movies.

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[–] illeatyourdog 22 years ago

Well, Chow Yun Fat didnt pursue martial arts. He has basic training in martial arts but he is no where near the skill of Jet Li or Jackie Chan. Chow Yun Fat focused more on becoming a good actor.

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[–] Speedy_Lube 22 years ago

I will only point out a movie that nobody saw, Dragon the Bruce Lee story.

There Jason Scott Lee, who was primarily an actor did go through rigorous training in Jeet Kune Do from one of Bruce Lee's own students. As a result you have a good movie with good action, no vice versa. I prefer an actor first, but he should go through the training that a real person would have to do, think of it as a type of method acting.

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[–] illeatyourdog 22 years ago

Jason Scott Lee had numerous doubles for the fighting scenes. If you dont beleive me, look at the trivia section for Dragon: The Bruce Lee story, its explained there.

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[–] plasmadragon 22 years ago

A fact that some people seem to be missing is that ALL fighting in movies is choreographed. Thus, it doesn't matter whether the actors are professional actors, or martial artists. Anyone can be made to look good with a bunch of wires and the right camera angles. What separates a good fight sequence from a poor one is the choreography and how many "takes" a director is willing to shoot to get the action just right.

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[–] RexDartEskimoSpy 22 years ago

Chow Yun-Fat could just shoot Jackie Chan and Jet Li with his mad firepower like in "The Killer" and "Hard Boiled." Those two movies far outweigh any movie with Jackie Chan or Jet Li. And as for the best martial artist, you people must have never seen a Bruce Lee movie.

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[–] illeatyourdog 22 years ago

Jackie Chan and Jet Li can shoot guns too and you are comparing shoot out movies with martial arts movies. Thats like comparing war movies against the one man hero action movie saying that Black Hawk Down is far superior to Commando or vice versa.

p.s. it is difficult to say whether or not Bruce Lee really is the best becuase he is not alive anymore. Keep in mind that Jackie Chan was trained as a very little kid (like 5 or 6 years old) where Bruce Lee didnt start training until he was 10, similar to Jet Li. Of course, although Jackie Chan has revolutionised fighting scenes and stunts in movies, he has yet to revolutionise martial arts by creating his own style of fighting like Bruce Lee.

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[–] Vandalx21 22 years ago

THANK YOU!!!!!! people haven't even mentioned him. Bruce was an actor before he became a martial artist yet he studied to become best at both. this is why I as well as many people around the world still love his movies. Even though he only made 4 or 5 (Fists of Fury, Return of the Dragon, The Chinese connection, Enter the dragon, and Game of death which sucked without him) they are so powerful, and the action is so real and true to the spirit of the martial arts, he has become a staple for all martial arts actors. He would be 62 today and he still has no equal in the action movie business.

Dream as if you'll Live forever,
Live as if you'll Die tomorrow.

Enter the VANDAL!!!!

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[–] ljfong 22 years ago

Ehm, Bruce Lee was a STREET FIGHTER already long before he started to become an actor. Rent Bruce Lee : A Warrior's Journey and see who Bruce Lee really was and why so many people are inspired by him till today.

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[–] Vandalx21 22 years ago

I've seen that documentary already and if YOU would look at his FILMOGRAPHY you'd see that bruce did his FIRST movie at the age of 6 months old. I doubt he was out brawling in the streets of Hong Kong at 6 months, i know what i'm talking about, his father was an opera singer for god's sake he was practically born a celebrity, he was doing commercials from age 5 on, he didn't start street fighting probably till he hit puberty. don't talk to me about Bruce Lee I WORSHIP Bruce Lee.

Dream as if you'll Live forever,
Live as if you'll Die tomorrow.

Enter the VANDAL!!!!

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[–] bananaman2000 22 years ago

I beg to differ. No regular actor can perform nearly half the things most martial artist can perform, because their bodies aren't trained too. Yes, choreography plays a big part, but the person needs talent too.

Look at Jackie Chan and his films. He uses his stunt team and he choreographs all the movies he is in, no matter where he makes it, yet it's obvious that the fighting in his Hong Kong films is leagues better than that of his Hollywood films. Why? Because the people he is fighting are not of the same caliber as the people he normally fights. The same goes for Jet Li using Corey Yuen. The films they do in Hong Kong are much better, because the people there have more talent than say DMX.

All the camera work and wires in the world won't give some one the ability to do the standing splits like Ken Lo in Drunken Master 2. You needs skill. I don't think you understand how martial arts work if you think that that is all it takes. As someone who is a Martial Artist, I also find it a tad insulting that you assume it doesn't take much to be able to do some of the things the masters are able to do.

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[–] illeatyourdog 22 years ago

Whats more important then camara angles, wires, and CGI effects is serious training by the actors. Even Ken Lo had to train for months before shooting the fight scene with Jackie Chan. Also Just becuase a person is a great martial artists does not mean they will do well on film. Take the end fight scene in Who am I for instance. That guy could also do the standing splits but they had to use a double fir him becuase he was not used to shooting fight scenes for movies and had trouble with his timing and placement.

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[–] bananaman2000 22 years ago

Yes, serious training is the most important thing. Yes, Ken Lo and Jackie Chan trained for 6 months for the end of Drunken Master 2. That is why the Matrix and it's martial arts is steps above anything else in Hollywood, because the actors trained long and hard. But, if the person who is training is already a martial artist, they will be so much better. Yuen Woo Ping said he spent a great chunk of time on the Matrix teaching the actors how to even punch properly, because most Westerners, unless trained in martial arts, don't know how. I have no doubt the fighting in the newest films will be much much better because the actors trained even more and had that 4 month base to work off of. But, some of the new characters that partake in the martial arts frenzies are real martial artists. During the scene with the 100 agents Smiths, they are all Yuen Woo-Pings guys, with the exception of the close ups of Hugo Weaving. But the Matrix works so well also because Yuen Woo-Ping has a talent for making non martial arts look great. Not through CGI, not through fast editing, but because he, like Bruce Lee, adopts the fighting style to what the person is capable of. Of course, in Hong Kong they are usually capable of a lot more because even if they aren't true martial artists like Jackie Chan, they have had some exposure to it at some point in their lives. I think, in the end, the Matrix started a trend in Hollywood that really shouldn't be a trend unless, like the Matrix, the people train long and hard. There is an obvious difference between the martial arts in The Matrix and Dare Devil, the Matrix being good and the Dare Devil being awful.

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[–] gluey_98 22 years ago

I think the question that you're all trying to answer really opens out a larger consideration of American tastes.

Someone mentioned Operation Condor and compared it with Daredevil. Well, without getting too specific, HK action movies (from Shaw Bros and onwards, even to the modern day kung fu and HK gangster films) are very different from their Hollywood counterparts because the audiences they are aiming for have differing expectations.

In American action/kung fu, there is a certain pattern that American audiences don't like to have disrupted. The same goes for HK movies. When the odd movie that comes along and pushes the barriers a little bit, it sends out a little ripple across the world that suddenly makes Hollywood realise that this ripple is one they can turn into a wave to surf all the way to larger bank balances. And thats all it boils down to with American action movies etc.

Folks like Jackie Chan, whilst not uninterested in making the odd buck here and there, are also auteurs of their particular art. They certainly may not make the slickly produced, fantastically lit and hyper-edited orgies of guns and explosion with the true-blue hero emerging as the dust settles a la Hollywood, but they have a go at what they think will work, and sometimes its cheesy with some brilliance and sometimes its what us Westerners consider low-grade schlock.

Hollywood cant afford to take any chances, the bottom line, the opening weekend gross etc, thats all that counts here. Thats why we get Jet Li waiting around for someone to actually challenge him in movies like Cradle to the Grave etc. I am not letting Hollywood off the hook; I personally cannot stand the vast majority of American movies simply because of their American-ness and how they bring the American world view to nearly every aspect of everything that happens in any part of the world. Even supposedly ground-breaking American movies like Donnie Darko (which was fantastically popular here in England), I cannot abide. But there we are. Kevin Smith was right...and him I do like!

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[–] bananaman2000 22 years ago

The expectations they have aren't that different. Jackie Chans films, regardless of what country they are made in, always open huge in Hong Kong. The Matrix is huge in Asia. Some things can transcend cultures.

I was the one who compared Operation Condor and Dare Devil, because someone else said the acting in Operation Condor was terrible and it was great in Dare Devil, which I don't agree with. They are also very very different films.

I don't think it is neccessarily the American ideology that seperates Cradle 2 The Grave from something like Once Upon A Time in China, it is the style of film making. In Hong Kong and the rest of the world, the directors and producers have much more freedom and much more control. In Hollywood, the executives, in the end, have the control. And these are people who know nothing about film making. Plus, Hollywood is saturated in MTV style film making of rapid editing and flashy camera work. Yes, Hong Kong films are sometimes stylish beyond belief, but nothing bothers me more in an action film than having such rapid editing that you can't tell what is happening, especially in martial arts films, like Cradle 2 The Grave. So, maybe, that is a bit of Hollywood ideology, but I think that is the problem.

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[–] illeatyourdog 22 years ago

What really bugs, and confuses, me about movies like Daredevil, SPiderman, Star Wars Episode 2, and even Blade 2 is the use of CGI doubles in action scenes. Now, I beleive it is somewhat a universal feeling that no one likes the CGI doubles. I mean do the directors and producers actually think people wont notice that the people are polygons?

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[–] bananaman2000 22 years ago

I think in some instances, even though it doesn't always look the best, it is excusable, to a degree. For Spiderman, I think it worked well, one, because it would be impossible to do it like that any other way, and too, because lots of the time when Toby Mcguire is in the suit, it is sometimes CGI on his body, so it always looks the same. I didn't mind it in Blade 2 either, because again, it would be impossible to do it any other way, and it fit with the story. It bugged me the most in Daredevil, one, because I think it looked worse, two, because Daredevil isn't suppose to be Spiderman, and three, because it seemed that it the director thought, hey, that looked cool Spiderman, so lets put it into Daredevil for no reason at all.

I think it serves a purpose when it is impossible without it, and it fits the story.

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[–] illeatyourdog 22 years ago

Im curious, have you seen Iron Monkey, Hero, Twin Warriors, Duel to the Death, or any old wuxia movie? They do even crazier stuff and they dont need CGI doubles. Now I don't mind if they find some clever way to use a blue or green screen (like in The Matrix) but to actually use 100% CGI doubles, as in the doubles are nothing more then polygons being manipulated in a computer, it almost completly ruins the action scene no matter how good it was before.

p.s. In Blade 2, im referring to the fight scene between Blade and Nyssa in the beginning. For like two 4 second shots, they used CGi doubles when it was not at all neccessary to do so. As for Spiderman, Im referring to when he was jumpion from building to building, if they would have played around long enough, they would hjave found a way to use a blue screen to accomplish the impossible feat (again, the Wochowski bros. were able to do so in The Matrix so why can't any other director seem to, not to mention the guy who wrote and directed the Evil Dead, I mean The Evil Dead is loads more fun then spiderman and he didnt even have the luxury of using computer effects.)

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[–] bananaman2000 22 years ago

To answer your first question, yes, I have seen numerous old Wuxia films, although Iron Monkey is hardly old. Yes they do even crazier stuff in those films, but they are a genre of films that is huge in Asia. I get several Chinese channels here in Korea, and the Wuxia shows are on almost 24 hours a day. For Wuxia it serves a purpose. They are fantasy movies.

I do agree with that particular part in Blade 2, it was completely unneccessary. As for the Matrix Reloaded, yes, they seem to have found a way to create CGI doubles, but, there is a catch. Joel Silver has been quoted as saying that no one will be able to duplicate some of the effects in this film for a very long time, because they cost so damn much. The budget is $300+ for two films. There was an article in Wired about how they did it, and about the new virtual cinematography they use, but even still, they still use the actors to create the doubles. For the scene with the hundreds of Agent Smiths fighting Keanu, they created a massive motion capture studio and had Yuen Woo Pings guys act out the scene an incredible number of times so that they had the entire battle from every conceivable angle captured so that they could perform any camera movie they wanted. Hence, virtual cinematography.

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[–] illeatyourdog 22 years ago

I was referring to the first Matrix but still, niether Spiderman or Daredaredevil had scenes anywhere near the complexity of ones hinted at in Reloaded and Spiderman had a very big budget as well -- 139 million -- and they will most likely have the same budget, or even more, for the Spiderman sequal so they cant use "We didnt have the money . . ." excuse for Spiderman. As for Daredevil, its a comic book which is fantasy (I doubt you will get sight through sound and superhuman strength by spraying radiation is your eyes), and using wires would have been much cheaper then using CGI doubles (more work for the actors or stunt doubles, director etc. but less money). Again, in the first Matrix, some of the coolest things ( Neo being thrown into a wall, the triple kick, Trinity jumping off the wall, neo smashing Agent Smith into the cealing, the Morpheous/ Neo fight) were accomplished with well done wire-work and no computers other then to remove the wires.

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[–] melis232 22 years ago

This sort of contrast is painfully illustrated in the first Mortal Kombat film. Robin Shou and Linden Ashby (to a lesser extent) were clearly well-trained in martial arts, their moves looking professional and effective. Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa was also pretty good. Bridgette Wilson, however, was clearly NOT a fighter. Her one single fight scene involved about four total punches, wimpy girly ones (like mine, actually). She even takes a few practice swings before the fight starts, which only served to demonstrate her ineptitude.

Interestingly, François Petit (who played Sub Zero) was another amateurish fighter, arms and legs flailing uselessly everywhere. I would have thought the producers of the film could find someone better suited to the role, considering all Sub Zero does is fight. I mean, the extent of his conversation is "YAAA!"

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[–] 22 years ago

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[–] bananaman2000 22 years ago

Although Bruce Lee is one of the greatest Martial Artists of the 20th Century, on screen, he was not the best because didn't play for the camera. I guess that can be argued that that makes him a better Martial Artist, but in my opinion, that doesn't make him a better Cinematic Martial Artist. Jet Li and Jackie Chan play for the camera. There moves are designed to look good on camera, but not to be used in real life combat, where as Bruce Lee was the complete opposite.

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[–] peterburch 22 years ago

donnie yen is the man! it's such a shame he was so underused in blade 2, but check out iron monkey or once upon a time in china 2 for his fight with jet li :)

also, i was under the impression that jackie chan was never a 'true' fighter. jackie's history is as a stuntman who can do movie gung fu, but cannot fight to the same degree as jet li who was national champion of china.

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[–] bananaman2000 22 years ago

Jackie Chan was never trained as a stunt man, he became one because his teacher at the Opera School suggested it. He is trained in kung fu, along with singing, dancing and acrobatics. Yuen Biao, Sammo Hung and Corey Yuen were all his classmates.

I think Jackie IS trained to the same degree as Jet Li. Yes, Jet Li was the national Wushu champion, but Jackie Chan was also a member of the Seven Little Fortunes, which was famous throughout China as a touring Opera group. They are both trained in Martial Arts, and both of their forms are geared towards show, not combat, like Bruce Lee was.

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[–] hudson2_3 22 years ago

Bulletproof Monk, The Matrix, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, has no one spotted the fighting in these films is impossible. Actors train to perform choreographed moves, not to be martial artists. And it isn't possible to fly whilst doing martial arts, limbo under bullets, jump off buildings, spin like a top, run along walls, and most importantly take the kind of punishment that the film stars take. You just have to look at the end credits of a Jackie Chan film to realise that even a trained performer/fighter needs a few goes a bit of luck to get it right.

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[–] hudson2_3 22 years ago

Bulletproof Monk, The Matrix, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, has no one spotted the fighting in these films is impossible. Actors train to perform choreographed moves, not to be martial artists. And it isn't possible to fly whilst doing martial arts, limbo under bullets, jump off buildings, spin like a top, run along walls, and most importantly take the kind of punishment that the film stars take. You just have to look at the end credits of a Jackie Chan film to realise that even a trained performer/fighter needs a few goes a bit of luck to get it right.

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[–] bananaman2000 22 years ago

Yes, you are indeed correct. In the Matrix, the actors trained for 4 months, practicing the same moves over and over again until they could do it right. It took them months. On the other hand, people like Jackie Chan and Jet li improvise much of the fighting on set. If you watch any of the Rush Hour DVD's you can actually watch Jackie Chan in action, doing this with his stunt team. That is one of the biggest differences, and I think that is one reason why with Actors it is much more forced, where as with real Martial Artists you can get real magic because they are constantly coming up with new ideas on set. You can't do that with actors, because they don't have the talent.

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[–] jackiex 22 years ago

A lot of good things were brought but I think something was missed--EDITING.

With martial artists their moves look so good that the director allows more in one shot. Compare this to the fight between Jade and Nina in this movie. It was so chopped up I couldn't tell what was happening. Same with Bourne Identity and a lot of movies where the actor undergoes training for a role.

This is why I was so impressed with the Neo/Morpheus fight scene. It should well paced action in enough frames instead of being so chopped up.

I blame the director/editor more than the actor.

I don't recall Bruce ever receive praise for his acting.

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[–] EboMike 22 years ago

True. My statement is:

The Transporter is to Ronin what Bulletproof Schmuck is to a real martials arts movie. (Instead of Ronin, you might alternatively say Bullitt).

Transporter is just an assembly of close-ups of the steering wheel, shift stick, wheels, and every now and then a wider shot of a car actually racing through the streets.

Ronin had a team of highly professional stunt drivers, John Frankenheimer keeps pointing out that he didn't use any blue-screen or CGI tricks. Of course, the actors weren't driving, but that's not an issue since the cars were the focus there.

In the same way, Bulletproof Dork is just bunch of close-ups spliced together, no match to a movie with real actors proficient in martial arts. I'm looking forward to see a movie where you can actually enjoy a longer action shot that hasn't been hacked to pieces by the editor.

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[–] illeatyourdog 22 years ago

Compared to other recent car chase scenes, like in Gone in Sixty Seconds and Swordfish, The Transporter is not so poorly edited or shot. And other then Bullitt, or the original Gone in 60 seconds from 1974, there arent really any movies, old or recent, that can rival the ones done in Ronin. Might as well compare the Fight Scenes in the Matrix to the fight scenes in Drunken Master 2 and declare that the Matrix has some of the mots poorly done fight scenes ever.

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[–] brutalmuscle 22 years ago

I think a major problem in American action films is that no one has a clue how to film a fight scene! I recommend seeing a film by Sammo Hung or Lau Kar Leung ( a real master of Hung Gar Kung Fu ) to see a great effort from the preformers and the directors. Americans are total idiots in this case, they think that having the camera too close to the fighting and do really stupid camera angles with quick cuts so you don't know what the heck is going on is cool and what people want. Another thing is the inclusion of rap or techno music. It is distracting. Some of the greatest fights ever put on film have no music. The viewer can really get into the fight. So the use of simple, clear, camera angles, no music, and having a director who is also the coreographer can make a great movie. Hollywood needs to learn how to make a good film with martial arts, there hasn't been one yet!

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[–] illeatyourdog 22 years ago

I am in total agreement with you droog but I would say the Wachowski bros. did a commendable job filming fight scenes, even though they had to include the techno music.

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[–] bananaman2000 22 years ago

I agree. By far, the Wachowskis did a great job filming the fight sequences. No quick cuts, it wasn't filled with close-ups. But they are real students of Asian cinema. But most Western films shoot the fight scenes like they shoot music videos. Which doesn't work.

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[–] illeatyourdog 22 years ago

Well, shooting the fight scenes like music videos worked when fights were merely the hero and villian taking turns hitting each other in the face heh.

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[–] mbwun5 22 years ago

I think a lot of what has been said is right, but I do think that comparing some of the movies that you have been doing don't match up right. I enjoyed Bulletproof Monk, because I didn't go in expecting a Jackie Chan or Sammo Hung movie. As to the question in the subject line, I would rather have a good actor do wire work fighting (Chow in Bulletproof, Jennifer Garner in Daredevil), than bringing in a fight who just can't act at all to get the fighting to look more realistic. As to the question of would I rather see movies with good realistic fight scenes or good CGI fight scenes, I would rather see both. Its the movies with bad CGI fight scenes (Spiderman, and most recent action movie) and the bad movies with realistic fight scenes (Kiss of the Dragon).

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[–] illeatyourdog 22 years ago

Kiss of the Dragon was an awsome movie. As was Spiderman, but for very different reasons.

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[–] bananaman2000 22 years ago

True, but even the alley brawl in They Live wasn't all quick cuts. And that was a great fight!

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[–] illeatyourdog 22 years ago

There are a few exceptions and the entire movie is awsome: "I am here to chew bubblegum and kick ass. I'm all out of bubblegum" hehe classic!!!

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[–] Scoarch 22 years ago

-Jackie Chan has admitted to having his fight sequences sped up to create the illusion of near super-human speed.

-Jet Li didn't start out, nor was he trained as a martial artist. He admits to being more of an acrobat than a martial artist.

-CGI duplicates in films, though often unconvincing human replacements, do not have "polygons".

-Bruce Lee did start out as a martial artist first and acted 2nd.

-And finally, asking a martial artist to act truly is asking too much. Actors make their career out of pretending to be something they are not. When Silence of the Lambs was filming they didn't hire a real FBI agent to act the part of Clarice Starling. They hired Jodie Foster for that and hired the agent as an advisor.

Next you'll be asking movie studios to hire real murderers for the parts of the bad guys in films to add to the believability of the murder scene.

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[–] clocksnmirrors 22 years ago

Or perhaps they'll start hiring real sluts to do porn instead of actresses who are classically trained to act like sluts....

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[–] illeatyourdog 22 years ago

First off, Jet Li is a trained Wu-Shu champion and started training around the same age Bruce lee did ( about 9 or 10 years old)

Jet Li is most likely referring to how he is supposed to ACT, when he said he was more of an acrobat, instead of how he really fights.

True Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Donnie Yen, etc. probably do use speeded up film at some points but at least they are really doing the actions.

I dont care whether the CGI duplicates use polygons or not becuase they look like *beep* anyway with or without them and if you are referring to one of my posts where I said ploygonal double or somethin it is becuase they looked so bad that a polygonal VIrtua Fighter character looks better then what was actually used in whatever film I was talking about.

Theres no beef with Bruce Lee, hes great nuff said

Steven Seagal started off as an martial arts advisor (he did one of Sean Connery's James Bond films and he broke Sean's arm in the process) and he went on to make some very successful films. Also, in Stanely Kubricks Full Metal Jacket, there is character by the name of Gunnery Sgt. Hartman who was a sadistic drill sargeant and he was very beleivable is doing so. Want to know why he was so beleivable? Becuase he was a REAL drill sargeant and was hired to do the roll becuase the director saw him drilling someone, for real, and wanted that same attitide for the role.

And, finally, yes I would like to see real murderers in movies, in fact, I would like to see real murders as well. I would really like to know what it really looks and sounds like to beat some one to death with a hammer or how one would remove a liver with nothing more then a spork and a toothpick.

Which reminds me, you cant have a real discussion about martial artists who become actors without mentioning Sonny Chiba. If you want to see the closest thing to real martial arts portrayed in movies, other then Bruce Lee's enter the Dragon, check out Sonny Chiba's Street Fighter series. There are no quick cuts (in fact the camara just roles, roles, roles, then roles some more then a cut or 2), speeded up film, CGI doubles, wires, or dance-like/acrobatic choreography. Just good old fashion Karate in all of it's brutal detail.

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[–] bananaman2000 22 years ago

Jackie Chan speeds up SOME of the fight sequences, and he isn't the only one. They do it all the time! Even in American films. And Jet Li IS a Martial Artist. He WAS trained as a Martial Artist in Wushu by the best instructors all over China. He performed for Nixon at the White House. Why don't you just look up his name on this wonderful website called the Internet Movie Database, and it will have all this information their. And no one said anything about Bruce Lee. Most Martial Artists in film trained as Martial Artists first and actors second, like Bruce Lee. That is nothing new. And no, having a Martial Artist to act is not asking too much. If you compare fight scenes in Asian films and Hollywood films, the Asian films are so much better, because the people they are fighting ARE Martial Artists. There are plenty of Martial Artists who actually do act. Mark Dacascos, Donnie Yen, Micheal Wincott, Stephen Seagal, Richard Norton, Jet Li, Jackie Chan, Brad Allen. Yes, some of them are old. But, unless you have someone like Yuen Woo-Ping choreographing the scenes and your actors spend 4 intensive months training and are very dedicated, it just looks like crap. The Matrix is the only film that has completely pulled off using non-Martial Artists.

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[–] illeatyourdog 22 years ago

Hey, you furgot about Ray Park who did Star Wars Episode 1 (the best part of Episode 1), X-men, and Ecks vs. Sever (the movie sucked but Ray Park was awsome). He is another accompished martial artist who his making a name for himself in hollywood.

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[–] bananaman2000 22 years ago

Yes, I remembered him moments after I finised the post. In short, there are plenty of people they could get to fill these parts, instead of DMX. Even Michael Jay White, who was in Exit Wounds and Kill Bill is a trained Martial Artist. Why don't they use him instead of DMX! Because they don't care whether it looks authentic, they want money!

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[–] tekhazard 22 years ago

I disagree with your comment about bruce lee, as we have said Bruce did not start training as a martial artist untill he was 10. But if you look at his filmography he appeared in four films before he was 10.

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[–] sasowa 22 years ago

Haha I love these boards, they get so messy after a while. Great entertaiment.

First of all, someone please lock up "illeatyourdog" for wanting real murderers and real murders on screen. Please dont tell me you are a yank too.

Second Bananaman2000 mentioned "There are plenty of Martial Artists who actually do act" and included Steven Seagal???!!! He acted in his movies? Surely he was just constipated, said a few things, frowned a couple of times and let the director film a closeup of his hands moving while he ate another greasy gut expanding burger/hotdog/tub of lard.

Thirdly, CGI doubles currently always look terrible (lets hope RELOADED proves this wrong) ESPECIALLY in Blade 2. The scene was so unnecessary and could easily have been done with some wires and a few takes. (or written out of the scene altogether)

Anyway, something to do with the actual thread.

I think I have to say I prefer actors who fight for a movie that I expect some substance from. Though for a movie where I expect some madly over the top kung fu then I want the real deal. Unfortunately the Wachowski brothers have shot this to *beep* and have done a f***ing brilliant sci-fi/kung fu film with actors.

In other words, if the director/editor is skilled enough then an actor who was a bit shitty at kung fu can be made to look like an incredible martial artist. Though the director and editor will never help a martial artist become a great actor (or help Steven Seagal with his ongoing constipation problem) with decent camera angles and editing.

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[–] siberiantiger 22 years ago

Come on guys!! Lets just enjoy the movies these guys make and stop arguing over whether to use CGI or not, whether they can act or not!
as long as you enjoy the movie thats all that matters.

Bruce Lee was a martial arts first before a actor!!! DONT MAKE ME LAUGH!!!

Bruce Lee was a child actor at the age of 4!!!!!!
He studied the same martial art as myself (Wing Chun) but never completed the art form due to problems with him and Yip Man and Williem Cheung!
and thats why he created Jeet Ket Do (to fill the gap of the wing chun he lost!!!)
But Brucee Lee is what you call a born fighter - i wouldnt call him a true martial artist but i would call him a very good fighter and the single reason why martial arts is so popular today!!! Thank you Bruce

Jackie Chan - like Bruce Lee grow up Fighting - but Jackie Chan fought alot because he was picked on for being so damn poor!! yes he went ot the Opera house! But in the opera is some of the hardest form of fighting and strictest training you can think of. p.S when growing up Sammo Hung used to kick Jackie Chans ass! (Wouldnt happen now though). Jackie Chan like Bruce Lee is another true fighter as they both grew up fighting - having to fight to stay alive etc.
Bruce Lee learned is art from a grand grandmaster in Yip Man, Jackie Chan learned from some of the greatest opera and chinese martial artists.

Alot of people dont like Jackie Chan or dont rate him because of the way he fights in his movies! But alot of you u americans seem to think that jackie cahns first movie was "Rumble in the Bronx"" - man hes made some many movies its just silly!! When he started he was billed as the next bruce lee so in his early movies he used to just kick the *beep* out of everyone without a scratch! But it didnt sell, so chan and some others came up wiht a new form of fighting which involved comedy (Drunken Master and Snake in the Eagles were some of the first! and the best) and this is why jackie chan acts the way he does in his movies, I also like the ethos of jackie chan, in that he doesnt believe in having to kill anyoone in his movies in order to sell them, he doesnt like to see too much blood too (exception being - "Rumble in the Prison" - Island on Fire")

Jet Li again another great artist but he only studied wu shu - which is A SPORT!! its the national sport of Chinese - it follows rules!! Yet Jet Li was one of the best at Wu Shu even having an audience with the president because he was so good. Also he trained with Donnie Yen whose mother was a wu shu championship.

In conclusion all these fighters are great showman and great at everythign they do.

So lets not compare their styles, and ask silly questions like who would win in a fight! (man its just silly)

lets just enjoy the movies and have fun.

PEACE OUT GUYS

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[–] Angarr 21 years ago

1. I have to agree Steven Segal is no actor and yes he does need help with his ongoing constipation problem, A few good enemas or something might help clear him up and probably help him lose a good 50-60 pounds in the process and then maybe he could act.

2. While Jackie Chan is a good fighter he also is no actor... let me amend that He is not an english speaking film actor. He english is too forced for my personal tastes but I am sure in his native language he is probably a good actor.

3. Bruce lee is a god nuff said.

4. DMX probably bought his role or had some dirt on the casting directors again nuff said.

5. Techno music during fight scenes is great, even hard rock is good. It tends to get a viewer more into the action because the music sets the mood.

6. Over cutting film is a huge problem and probably won't change until people quit tolerating it.

7. While someone earlier said that Jean Claude Van Damme sucks at both martial arts and acting I have to disagree and point towards the movie BloodSport where there was very little cutting during the fight scenes.

8. Sometimes in a fight scene a close up is necessary just to get a good angle of the action however getting to close is a mistake, I don't want to see a foot and an object that may or may not be somebodies face I want to see the body connected to that foot and the Head connected to face.

9. Using real murderer's in a film is just plain ignorant and whoever said that is ignorant, besides if you wanna see real murders and real death just watch a faces of death or traces of death movie neither will you find in your local blockbuster but you should be able to find them if you have a small rental store that also rents lots of cult classics.

10. If a martial artist wants to be an actor they should therefore learn how to act, I would not try to get a job as a pilot and not know how to fly a plane. If said actor does not know english and wants to act in an english film they should therefore become fluent in english and not force it out.

11. I don't particularly like Jet Li, but he does seem to be a good fighter, he does need to work on his acting though.

12. The question is a moot point however because hollywood is going to use whoever they want to use and whoever is likely to draw in the most money, exception being the Matrix because at the time it was filmed most people hated Keanu Reeves and thought he couldn't act, I guess he surprised alot of people.

anyway that's my 12 cents.

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[–] the_darkness_of_poetic_humor 21 years ago

I agree using serial killers in movies is absurd , but I think he was saying having a actor be under the influence of a serial killer as some kind of method acting , but even then how are you going to go on a long 'method acting' journey with a serial killer before he takes a fork and starts digging in for your liver??? But if I read it wrong and he did say he wanted the actual murderer in the movie than ya , the guy obviously has psychosis and needs to seek help!

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[–] etf-3 19 years ago

Before i did any martial arts, fight scenes seemed a lot more convincing. If they are aiming to impress the everyday cinemagoer, then the MA does't have to be great.

I'd rather see unknown actors with great whoopass-can-opening skills though.

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[–] vnorian 18 years ago

Please do not tell me you think guys like Jackie Chan and Jet Li are great fighters. Hey I have an idea, what about using REAL figters who would whip the living *beep* out of Jackie Chan or Jet Li in a real fight. People like Matt Hughes, Royce Gracie, or Don Frye wouldn't that be great!! No that would suck because they don't know how to act, the fact is that movies require actors and fighting requires fighters.

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[–] etf-3 18 years ago

Making a good movie fight requires different skills than actually beating the *beep* out of people for real, although it must help.

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[–] tiger86-2 18 years ago

vnorian:
Please do not tell me you think guys like Jackie Chan and Jet Li are great fighters. Hey I have an idea, what about using REAL figters who would whip the living *beep* out of Jackie Chan or Jet Li in a real fight. People like Matt Hughes, Royce Gracie, or Don Frye wouldn't that be great!! No that would suck because they don't know how to act, the fact is that movies require actors and fighting requires fighters.

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Oh no! Not again!

Why there is allways some guy who involves Gracie in topics like that?

Well, Jet Li is a real martial artist and a real fighter. And he is a very good actor. Very good. See his acting skill in "Unleashed" or "Hero" or "Fearless". So?

The fights in the "Matrix" are pretty great and Keanu Reeves, Laurence Fishbourne and Carrie Ann Mos did almost all of their fight scenes. So I do not see a problem an actor to play martial artist or martial artist to act.

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