MovieChat Forums > Waking Life (2002) Discussion > I really think there is something to the...

I really think there is something to the Ethan Hawke scene


A collective conscious has always made sense to me. That is partly why I think religion does nothing for us and drags us down as a society.

Imagine there was no religion and we all spent our time looking for answers on who we are and why we are here. This life riddle may eventually be solved. But instead, people are satisfied in believing in something passed down to them for reasons they couldn't ever possibly explain logically.

We are stuck in this quagmire of a minority of people who want to seek truth and a majority who have their minds made up and would never denounce their faith. I understand the latter. Who would want to admit they were wrong? Their entire belief system and years spent to obtain it and all the arguments defending their beliefs over the years to eventually be in vain?

The whole thought of this is deeply depressing to me because it will never happen

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You're going to need more substance than that, or people will just turn the argument around on you.

The fact that your theory makes you depressed is a sign you've got something wrong.

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What are you talking about? I'm not married to the idea. And the thought of a collective consciousness had been around for ages. Transcendental Meditation is big into this theory. It's not "my" theory. Its just a possibility.

I would never argue for an idea. That's all an idea is. It's all possibility. If you cant prove it, don't preach it. It's perfectly fine to talk of possibilities but people become outraged. The whole reason I said this depresses me is that reason alone. Most people are not open to ideas like this or anything that's not in a book



"I did not hit her.... I did not!" Oh hi imdb.com

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"A collective conscious has always made sense to me. That is partly why I think religion does nothing for us and drags us down as a society."

This is your theory.
Why wouldn't the religious experience be part of the collective unconscious?
I think if you substitute 'religion' with, say, 'christianity', you make a clearer point.

"Imagine there was no religion and we all spent our time looking for answers on who we are and why we are here. This life riddle may eventually be solved. But instead, people are satisfied in believing in something passed down to them for reasons they couldn't ever possibly explain logically."

A lot of that goes for science too. People can't usually explain how their stuff works and what the logic behind it is.
I would concede that humans without a religious drive aren't humans. Religious behaviour exists even in the most the devout atheist. You can't escape it, only refine it.

"We are stuck in this quagmire of a minority of people who want to seek truth and a majority who have their minds made up and would never denounce their faith. I understand the latter. Who would want to admit they were wrong? Their entire belief system and years spent to obtain it and all the arguments defending their beliefs over the years to eventually be in vain?"

Well, society is still advancing so who cares about ignorant majorities? Numbers don't mean anything, evolving ideas and their applications do. And you don't want to that progress to happen too easily either, however tempting it may be to just get rid of all those religious loons so science can march unhindered.

"The whole thought of this is deeply depressing to me because it will never happen."
And this is where I think you have missed the point of it all. Of course I can't say how much this deep depression fills your life, but it seems like a waste of emotion.

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It's the scene where he is talking about the experiment with the crosswords, right? A crossword which was already solved by another human being gets solved easier a second time. That means an idea which was already thought by someone gets into the collective consciousness and another one can have this idea then more easily.

Sorry to say, that's just plain wrong. This experiment has been done and the theory was falsified.

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"Sorry to say, that's just plain wrong. This experiment has been done and the theory was falsified."

Well, I'm sorry to say that if there was an experiment done, there is absolutely no way to prove or disprove this. You can't gauge a collective conscious. Think about it. You just gonna stick a bunch of people in the same building and expect them to tap into the ether together? How are you supposed to come to any type of conclusion?

I would accept that they came to the conclusion that it can never be proven. I agree. We have no idea and never will. But it could never be written off as an impossibility .

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Uh... whatever...

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"You can't gauge a collective conscious."

But the point here is that Ethan Hawke's character WAS attempting to gauge a collective consious. He did so using faluty evidence…so his attempt failed.

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Speaking purely from my own perspective (who elses?) I'd have to say I don't buy the idea. We do all clearly share common threads, many of us think alike, we can think the same thing at the same moment as someone on the opposite side of the planet, but I don't think these are causal.

Rather than being something that physically connects our subconscious with other people's in real-time, we have animal instincts many of which are left-overs from our earlier days on earth. Like the way many different cultures managed to start different types of religions at roughly the same time as a way of coping with our self-aware existences. The fact that none of these religions yielded any of the same deities proves (to me) that, first none of them have any objective truth and second, as is relevant in this case, that the collective unconscious doesn't really exist.

Obviously I take a very Darwinian approach to these issues. I personally wouldn't put any faith in any theories that could be interpreted as being in any way paranormal, as I think this may.

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There's nothing paranormal about the idea of collective consciousness (or "the collective unconscious", as Jung called it). There are very good and obvious reasons for why we share so very much of the elements of consciousness. For instance, we share 99.n% of our genetics, and thus we live in environments that, even with the discernible, so-called "big" differences, are very similar because that's where we can survive, and these environments and us have evolved via universal physical laws and a-bit-more-subtle-but-nevertheless-still-universal psychological laws.

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Don't worry man. In 200-300 years religion will be a minority. United States being one of the last countries to let go of it. With advancement in medicine and when we finally perfect AI...our thinking levels will be more logical than primitive as they have been. There are scientists, theorist, and authors who all believe that we will integrate ourselves with machines ( AI nano machines ) in the next 50 years.

With AI accelerating our thinking and keeping out bodies in top form we'll have figured out so much more than what we know now. Most likely dropping religion as it is illogical banter and finding ways of bettering our species as a whole. I find ingratiation of machines as our evolution. As waiting for it naturally will take to long and we'll most likely destroy ourselves without AI's help.

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As someone who was originally trained as a psychologist, I think that Carl Jung came closest to helping us visualize the concept of the collective unconscious. But many amateur/pop psychologists misinterpret the meaning of this concept.

The best way to think about a collective unconscious is via evolutionary theory. The collective unconscious is best thought of as a collection of genetically programmed readinesses to respond in a fairly predictable way to stimuli in the world, even when we first encounter those stimuli.

A simple example is our natural fear of snakes. This fear entered our collective unconscious because enough of our ancestors reacted with fear at the sight of a snake, and these individuals were thus more likely to survive and pass along that readiness to respond in that manner.

But we are social animals; so the collective conscious appears to extend into the social realm as well. This is why we speak of archetypes such as the Hero, the Wise Old Man, etc. However, the more abstract and social the archetypes, the more they are likely to be the result of cultural transmission rather than the result of biological natural selection. But even here, there is probably a Darwinian/biological natural selection element going on; because those who respond appropriately to a social archetype may be more likely to be socially acceptable to others, and thus may have a higher probability of procreating and passing along those elements of the social collective unconscious to their offspring.

But the Lamarckian idea that learned behaviors can be passed along via evolution is not correct. So that theory does not lend itself to a notion of the collective unconscious, which is, as I said above, simply an evolutionarily based readiness to respond to particular types of stimuli in particular ways that are fairly standard/predictable.

And because humans have the capacity for rich, abstract symbolism, some of these archetypes can be rather elaborate. Here's a decent summary of some standard archetypes:
http://www.billstifler.org/HUM2130/files/4D-006-archetypes.htm

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I like that. I wish there were more of you.

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