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What Fundamentalist Christians need to understand

posted 13 years ago by Mystic_Fox
8 replies | jump to latest

The reason movies like this suck is not because of the production values or the acting. It's because the belief system being pitched does not make any sense. It says there's a god out there who's going to torment anyone who doesn't worship him the right way, when he never even makes it clear how he wants to be worshipped. The film tries to spin this to be a positive thing, but they obviously can't. So the film essentially commands the viewer to love God and dislike the Anti-Christ even though they have the same basic personality.

[–] life4all 13 years ago

This film promotes an idea not found in the Bible itself (Rapture)! However if you look close at the "Book of Revelations" you tend to see the "punishment" as being an attribute of reaping what we ourselves have sown. Man (not Satan) is the primary cause of trouble on earth. Nuclear War is the real focus of God’s warning and that is a torment which comes to man from man. Newton's third law is quite similar in regard to punishment that results from a particular course of action. It tends to suggest a "circular" or "cyclical" nature incorporated into the physical universe. If you touch the + and – side of an electrical circuit the energy is directed at you but I would not really call it a punishment. I think we like to bend the rules of even science sometimes and swimming upstream is just more difficult by default.

[–] tyrshonor 13 years ago

And if we look even briefly at Mathew 25:41 we see that we don't need some extrapolation or hazy interpretation to know that Hell was crafted by God for punishment, it is not some accidental happenstance caused by the sins of man. If we then even glance over Mathew 13:41,50 we see that it's through God's conscious actions that people get sent there, not through a natural 'cause and effect' reaction of their own sins.

Look, I appreciate your attempt to inject a bit of eastern Karma to make sense of western Christianity, but for you to reach this rationalization requires a significant misunderstand or just plain lack of understanding of the holy text.

I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care.
G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

[–] life4all 13 years ago

Thank you for your insightful response. You flatter me as I was raised in the church and have studied the Bible for over 40 years. Sir Isaac Newton strongly believed in God and has been called the father of modern physics. Many of his “laws” clearly came from studying the Bible. The “reap what you sow” message is repeated throughout the 66 books of the Bible (there used to be 72 books). The responsibility of what happens on earth rests clearly upon the shoulders of man or there would be no reason for anyone to be held accountable for their actions by God.

My friend does Mathew 25:41 say what actually occurs inside the "everlasting fire" (hint: better think a little before you respond)?

Romans 6:23 says, "the wages of sin is death". Now why didn’t Paul just say “the wages of sin is everlasting fire"? Is it even remotely possible that he used the word “death” for a reason?

John 3:16 promises eternal life to believers. Now what happens to those who do not receive eternal life? Doesn’t John say that they will perish? Have you ever looked up the word “perish” in the dictionary (hint: this is not a translation or trick question)?

Do you know what Joel 3:10 (i.e. let the weak say I am strong) actually refers to?

My friend, do you believe there will be a “Rapture”?

[–] tyrshonor 13 years ago

I must have missed that part in Principia where he credited his discoveries to your creative reinterpretation of the bible.

My friend does Mathew 25:41 say what actually occurs inside the "everlasting fire" (hint: better think a little before you respond)?

Mathew 25:41? The single verse that describes God crafting hell? No, it does not mention what happens in hell, for that you have to go a few verses down to Mathew 25:50 which mentions plenty of weeping and gnashing of teeth, or you can go to Mark 9:48 which mentions that you don't die and the fire is never quenched, if you insist on a literal statement that you are burning to death in this lake of fire you can go to Revelations 14:10 which states explicitly that you are tormented with fire, or if you're interested in a bit of drama you can go to Luke 16:24 which describes a man in hell begging for even a simple drop of water to cool his burning tongue.

Now, as for Romans 6:23, we already know from Revelations 20:14 that torture in the lake of fire is called the second death so we don't need to draw any kind of significance from the use of the word 'death' here. But what's more, we know from Daniel 12:2, Mathew 25:46, again Mark 9:48 and again Luke 16:24 that there is life eternal, and torture eternal, even for those who get sent to hell. Now, I will ask you, if you believe that hell is some karmic purgatory reflecting our sin back upon us, why did Revelations 14:10 say he will be tormented with "fire?" Do you think "fire" could have some special significance here, why didn't it say he will be tormented with "irony" or "punished with the fruits of his sin?" No, the book writes about torment with fire because there is torment with fire.

Your attempts to read metaphor into a very literal description of hell confirmed over at least 4 different books of the bible does not make for a very compelling argument.

I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care.
G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

[–] julielb67 13 years ago

The second death is the blotting out. (the death of the soul)

Jesus says very clearly in Matthew 10:28 that both body "and" the soul do indeed perish in hell. They're destroyed. God is a consuming fire -and this is eternal. There's no coming back after that. Jesus uses the words "to destroy" and when taken back it means "to destroy fully". I don't think that needs any interpretation.

Sometimes things do get lost in translation But many words like everlasting, eternal and even hell have many different meanings, etc and have to be used in the context it's given.

For example the word hell in Mark is actually the word geena and Jesus is using this as an analogy for hell. Geena was the garbage pit behind Jerusalem and the fires were constantly burning as they were using them all of the time. (I'm sure they were full of bugs, maggots, worms etc). These fires were never put out because of the constant use and like these God's fire will not be put out as well. You can't quench it. It's going to destroy both body and soul. And no one is in the lake of fire now as some people teach. There's a gulf that separates until judgment day. I'm sure it's torment because the others can see the other side and Jesus is the living water that they crave. And there are other books that describe this kind of torment, etc.

After the millinium, all of this is destroyed and then comes in the new earth, etc.

[–] life4all 13 years ago

I did not mean to imply that all of Newton's ideas came from the Bible but the laws of conservation (energy, mass, matter) are derived from Newton's 3rd law (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction) and seem to be reflected repeatedly in the Bible. God is constantly warning us that evil is not random and there is a cause for every effect.

julielb67 has put it very well. It is a "cleansing fire" that the Bible refers to at the 2nd death. It is not meant to promote suffering but rather to bring a final end to those who have even after being resurrected, chosen to remain at odds with God's agenda. Their reward is simply to be totally consumed by an unquenchable, cleansing fire until they no longer exist. The weeping and gnashing of teeth does not last very long. Here are a few Bible verses that we should not ignore:

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Psalm 146:4 His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecclesiastes 3:19 For that which befalls the sons of men befalls beasts; the same thing befalls them: as the one dies, so dies the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man has no advantage over a beast: for all is vanity.

[–] Livana_Faolan 13 years ago

There is a Scripture (Forgive me for not remembering the address) that explains that Hell was originally meant to be a prison for Satan and the angels who fell with him.

[–] Livana_Faolan 13 years ago

I think God makes it perfectly clear, how He wants to be worshiped.

Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God, the God of my salvation, and my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness. O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth shall show forth Your praise. For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart— These, O God, You will not despise. (Psalm 51:14-17)

The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”

Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:19-24)

“When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courts? Bring no more futile sacrifices; incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies— I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates; they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands, I will hide My eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not hear. Your hands are full of blood.

“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, rebuke the oppressor; defend the fatherless, plead for the widow.

“Come now, and let us reason together,” says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword”; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken. (Isaiah 1:12-20)

Scripture makes it clear that the only worship that is meaningful to God proceeds from humble, sincere, truth-seeking hearts. He doesn't want insincere worship.