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Jewish Holidays proofs the pre-tribulation Rapture!

posted 13 years ago by ergomane
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I had to change my view of rapture to pre-tribulation as this movie states. Jews (in Old Testament of the Bible) have 7 festivals, and four of those Jesus fulfilled in His first coming in the spring festivals. BUT there are still three (3) festivals to be filled in autumn. Now prepare to be surprised.

http://www.bibleprophesy.org/feasts1.htm
Spring festivals:
**************
1. Pesach (Passover) / Easter
- Feed from the slavery of Egypt vs freed from bond of the sin
- Blood of lamb protected from the death

2. Hag HaMatzah (Feast of Unleavened Bread) / Crucifixion
- unleavened bread vs Bread of Life
- The going out of Egypt vs The burial of Jesus

3. Bikkurim (First Fruits) / Resurrection
- Crossing the Red Sea vs The resurrection of Jesus

4. Shavout (Feast of Weeks) / Pentecost
- Moses got the Law in stone tablets, but Christians got the Law written in their hearts (Holy Spirit)
- 3000 died in Sinai, but in new covenant 3000 got Holy Spirit
- Book of Ruth. A gentile (Ruth) saves a jew (Naomi).
- "The First Trump" blown and associated with Pentecost!

Autumn festivals:
**************
5. Rosh HaShanah (Festival of Trumpets)/ The RAPTURE (and the resurrection of the dead)
- "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, in the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation." -Leviticus 23:24
- The gates of Heaven are opened on Rosh HaShanah so the righteous nation may enter (Isaiah 26:2, Psalm 118:19-20).
- Prior to Festival of Trumpets, they sound one trumpet per day, except Sabbath, and the last trumpet is blown at the start of festival!
- Christ comes to save people, only non-righteouss are left, and meets them in clouds.
- In jewish wedding, the bride (The Church) is "stolen" by bridegroom (Jesus).
- "The Last Trump" blown and associated the Feast of Trumpets!
- Yom Teruah is always celebrated for two days, because the moon cycle, thus nobody knows "the day or hour"
- Waiting for Day of Atonement starts at Rosh HaShanah
- Don't wait until after Rosh HaShanah, or you will find yourself in the Days of Awe.
- Also known as Yom Teruah (the Day of the Awakening Blast) and Yom Hakeseh (The Hidden Day)

6. Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) / Christ's Second Coming
- Christ comes to judge people, only righteous are left
- "The Great Trump" blown at the Day of Atonement (Isaiah 27:13)
- Must be a Jubilee year (2015, 2022 etc)
- Read more: http://www.bibleprophesy.org/feasts7.htm

7. Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles) / Great Rejoicing
- Entering the Promised Land vs The Messianic Era (1000 years)
- Time of rest, Sabbath of the Sabbaths, the millenial era (1000 years) is the "last day" of 6000 years
- Read more: http://www.bibleprophesy.org/feasts8.htm

Why the pre-tribulation Rapture?
- Revelation 19:11-12 does NOT speak about resurrection of the dead (because it happens in Rapture) nor does Zechariah 14:1-15!
- Returns with army of saints (where did they come from?)
- Why would be we Christians be chearing and happy about the tribulation?
- Jesus said that it's not for YOU to know the times or the seasons, when apostoles asked about restoration of Israel (Acts 1:7). But why is it so explicitly stated (1260 days, 3,5 years etc.) when Jesus comes to Judge people?
- Apostle Paul told about the last trumpet before Revelation was written!
- The term 'rapture' comes from the Greek word 'harpazo', which means "to seize, catch away, catch up, pluck, pull, take by force"
- Why did Jesus went to prepare rooms for us, if He is (just) coming back?
- In resurrection we do not have sex, thus no children. Paul stated that we're going to change when this happens, thus who is going to populate the millenial era is the rapture happens at the end.
- Jesus is (now) Prince of Peace, but he is going to return as King of Kings, with the Queen (The Church)
- Anticrist will NOT appear, "until he be taken out of the way". Who is taken out of the way? Answer is the righteouss and their prayers. (2 Thess. 2:6-8)

About Jewish Wedding (analogue to Lamb's Wedding between Jesus and The Church):
- The virgin girl shows that she accepts the written covenant agreement of the marriage by drinking a glass of wine
- The bride price is paid by the groom for the bride.
- The groom departs to build the bridal chamber where they will live together
- When finished, the groom would return at a time unexpectedly(!) to fetch, or take away (rapture) his bride, like a thief in the night.
- At the end of this bridal week (7 years tribulation), the bride and groom emerge at the wedding feast or marriage supper (millenium).
- The slaughter (Armageddon) at the marriage supper, is pictured in Judges 14 as Samson kills the Philistines.
- read more: http://www.bibleprophesy.org/introwedding.htm

My point here is to BE READY and you need to repent, and accept Jesus as your saviour. See this movie! "12 Biggest Lies": http://www.tv7.fi/vod/player/?program=21507

PS. Pure speculation about the timing, but norwegian Olav Rogden had prophecy about the rapture and it occured day after sunday (monday). So, we need to follow when Festival of Trumpets when it's monday(ish). This year (2012) it's 17th and 18th of September (monday and tuesday!), but if it doesn't happen this year then the following years have monday(ish) Festival of Trumpets: 2015, 2016 and 2018. Check from here: http://www.when-is.com/rosh-hashanah-2015.asp

[–] julielb67 13 years ago

Yes, Jesus does indeed come at the last trump to meet us. But antichrist is here at the 6th.

The Thessalonians thought that Christ's return was imminent as well -so Paul had to write them a second letter and told them not to be shaken in mind or confused (even by letter by them, 1st Thes) that that the day of Christ was at hand. He said that day "shall not happen" until the falling away (apostasy) and the son of perdition was here sitting at the throne proclaiming to be God. Anti in the Greek means "instead of", he will be here instead of Christ at first proclaiming to be God and that's why people "fall away". This warning is for Christians because falling away is falling away from one's faith. Unbelievers don't have anything to fall away from. This is why when the real Christ comes at the 7th, there will be gnashing of teeth and the people praying for the mountains to fall on them. They will be ashamed.

Christ has foretold us all things. In Matthew 24 the disciples as for signs of his "coming" and what the end of the world will be like. Christ lays it out perfectly and tells us not to be deceived, as does Paul in 2nd Thes.

So I'd rather heed their warnings and wait for the real Christ who comes at the 7th trump, which is the last.

[–] ergomane 13 years ago

Please, read my post again. I don't believe the rapture is going to happen at the 7th trump, but instead at the Festival of Trumpets which is the NEXT event before the tribulation (Days of Awe).

Agree though on the Anti-part. Satan does not like atheists as much as believers of him (Satan). He wants to be Christ and worshipped.

PS. I used to think as well post-tribulation rapture, but after understanding the jewish holidays and the wedding the pre-tribulation makes a lot more sense to me.

[–] julielb67 13 years ago

Yes, but provide scripture in the new testament where first Christ teaches a rapture and where the festival of trumpets is documented by Paul. He teaches Christ comes at the last trumpet. and we know in Revelation there are 7.

If Christ himself doesn't teach rapture but instead describes his coming as "immediately after" the tribulation than I have to go with his teaching. I mean surely when the disciples ask him about it he would have told them not to be worried, right? Because he comes to take the church but instead he says beware that many will come in his name, etc. And he goes on to give out the signs. Christ has also told us that he has foretold us "all" things. Well then, where is his teaching on the rapture, coming for the saved before the tribulation? There's nothing.

And Paul as a second witness tells us again, to not be deceived, that the day "shall not happen"..... I just can't go against their teachings.

And I for one used to believe in a rapture but just don't see it backed up in scriptures, just the opposite.

ETA although I do believe in the three festivals, the last being the feast of tabernacles which is to be celebrated.

Also, I don't like to make dates either but I think 2014/2015 are interesting because of the blood red eclipses, two each year one around passover and one around the feast of tabernacles. Because I believe the time of antichrist has been shortened, (Christ tells us this) and that the time will be just a 5 month period as described in Rev 9. Which is the exact time of the locusts (May thru Sept) So I could possibly see antichrist here in the spring with Christ here in Sept. But this is just speculation as well and we should always be on watch no matter what.

[–] ergomane 13 years ago

The Rapture (1 Thessalonians)
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (only up to clouds, not ground) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (Not angel's trump!): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (Getting away from the tribulation is pretty comforting...)" - 1 Thess. 4:16-18

The Rapture (1. Corithians)
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (no angels gathering people from 4 corners), at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." - 1. Cor. 15:51-53

The Rapture (Isaiah)
"The righteous perisheth (vanishes), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness (in Father's house)." - Isaiah 57:1-2

The Rapture (Isaiah II with resurrection)
"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation (wrath) be overpast." - Isaiah 26:19-20

The Second Coming (Matthew, no resurrection)
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together (not rapture!) his elect (144,000 jews + new congregation) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." - Matt. 24:29-31

The Second Coming (Revelations, no ressurrection) - see also Zechariah 14
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (The saints from the Wedding)" - Revelation 19:11-12

What is holding back Antichrist from appearing:
"And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way (The congregation is taken out of Antichrist's way!). And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" - 2. Thess. 2:6-8

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (He is going to save us from the wrath)." - 1 Thess. 1:10

Interestingly the New Testament parts directed to the jews (Matthew and Hebrew letter) don't have resurrection of the death, because they are pointed to those 144,000 jewish evangelists. Also chapters 1-3 in Revelation speak about many times (~30 if memory serves) about the congregation, but the latter chapters 0 times. Funny coincidences, but I don't think God believes in coincidences...

When Paul wrote the letter to Thessalonians to comfort them and making it more clear what is about to happen, then why would he confuse them with term like "The Last Trumpet", if it wasn't clear for them. Book of Revelations was written ~40 years later than the letter. It's going to be like in days of Noah and Sodoma, God is going to save the righteous before letting (THE) Anticrist to stand up...

Age of gentile is about the end, and age of jews to start, to fullfill their destiny as priests of God.

PS. Why so many people are seeing prophetic dreams about the rapture, even though they never believed in it? Search Youtube: "rapture 2012"

[–] julielb67 13 years ago

Well I can see that you've aligned with the rapture believers that have separated Christ's second coming (singular) even though as I said Christ didn't teach such a thing. You have to separate them into two to make your beliefs fit and the bible does not read this way. Last trump is God's trump, it's number 7.

Again, I say, if there was such a thing as a rapture before the tribulation why does Christ not teach this in Matthew 24?

We are "all" changed. That means everyone, all means all at the last trump. Because in the 1000 yr reign all must put on incorruptible bodies. This is the first resurrection. 2nd resurrection comes afterwards as well as the 2nd death, which is the death of the soul.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (only up to clouds, not ground) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (Not angel's trump!): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (Getting away from the tribulation is pretty comforting...)" - 1 Thess. 4:16-18

But did you read 2 more verses down where Paul calls this very event, the day of the Lord? (again singular) and going on into 2nd Thes he's on the same subject, the day of the Lord, Day of Christ, etc.

When Paul wrote the letter to Thessalonians to comfort them and making it more clear what is about to happen, then why would he confuse them with term like "The Last Trumpet", if it wasn't clear for them.

That's just it, he wrote the second letter to clear up the confusion and told them not to be confused or shaken in mind that the day (again, singular) was at hand. He says that day "shall not happen".....He can't make it any clearer than that.

It's Michael that's holding Antichrist (Satan) at bay.

And of the 144, 000 -you do realize that you can't fit all the tribes into Judah (the Jews), there are 12,000 from every tribe. The 144,000 are not all Jews.

PS. Why so many people are seeing prophetic dreams about the rapture, even though they never believed in it? Search Youtube: "rapture 2012"

I'd rather do as God says and rely on his word than man's. The Bible needs to be read chapter by chapter verse by verse as not to lose context.

I can see this is another case of we'll have to agree to disagree. I am firmly planted in my beliefs.

[–] ergomane 13 years ago

Here's the same thing elobarated in a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qOyM1yDEuc

It does not say in the Scripture that Michael is going to be taken away at any moment.

Forcing two separate things into one just does not work.

Isaiah told about the rapture and resurrection already more than 2,500 years ago:
"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers (rooms in Father's house), and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation (wrath) be overpast." - Isaiah 26:19-20

And also in 57:
"The righteous perisheth (vanishes), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away (raptured), none considering that the righteous is taken away (to where?) from the evil to come. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness (in Father's house)." - Isaiah 57:1-2

Day of the Lord can be considered as the seven year period of the wrath.

[–] julielb67 13 years ago

It does not say in the Scripture that Michael is going to be taken away at any moment.

Have you never read Daniel?

And it does not say the church is taken at any moment. He says "he".

Michael stands up, there is a war in heaven and Satan and his angels are cast down.

Forcing two separate things into one just does not work

That's just it as well. You don't have to force it, it reads that way. Every time Christ's return is mentioned, it's always the day of the lord, the day of Christ, the Lord's day. And it's always at the last trump or the trump of God, which is the last and 7th trump -not a minute before.

The Day of the Lord is not the tribulation. This is the beginning of the 1000 yr reign. Why would antichrist/Satan's time on earth be called the Day of the Lord??

Especially when Paul says the day shall not happen until after antichrist is here- he says this in 2nd Thes. You really need to read 2nd Thes right after the 1st to get the full context of the second coming. The subject has not changed. Paul wrote the first and then after he saw that they thought Christ could come back at any time (just as the rapture believers today) he had to write the second to clear up this confusion. He lays out specific events that must happen before the day of Christ - the great falling away and antichrist sitting on the throne.

We are protected from God's wrath but we must be sealed with the truth so we won't be deceived and fall away in the apostasy that is about to take place.

[–] ergomane 13 years ago

You need to check the original greek language to uncover what Paul says as "secret/mystery". There is no "He" in the orignal manuscript. And most scholars agree that restrainer is Holy Ghost of the chruch (christians), for example Amplified Bible. So I believe finnish translation with word "it" is more correct, Read the original text on textus receptus and you won't find word "He" there: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/2th2.pdf

"Day of the Lord" is the tribulation period. Millenium is not dreadful as Malachi says about the day (see bottom of this post for Malachi). Here's what Hesekiel says about the "day" and how it starts with a war and lasts for 7 year perioid when they do fight. You also need to understand, that Hesekiel couldn't use words like bazooka, rifle or rocket, so that's why it says "burn the weapons with fire":

"So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more (like they are doing now): and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day (of the Lord) whereof I have spoken. And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years. So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD." - Hes. 39:8

But there are more and as we know, Luke wrote the gospel to Gentiles, while Gospel of Matthew is written for (messianic) jews. One good example is the family tree. Matthew starts with Abraham ("Grandfather" of the jews), but Luke starts from the first human, Adam. David Pawson explains this very well, see the video on Youtube. Now, considering that Luke should tell that you're not going to escape these horrors, while Matthew should tell that you need to endure to the end; if there is going to be rapture and that's by the way what it actually says.

In Gospel of Luke it tells to get ready for escape: "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy ('kataxioo ' to account worthy, judge worthy) to escape('ekpheugo' to escape/flee out/seek safety in flight!) all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." - 21:36

Also Luke tells that when things are starting to look bad, the redemption is close and you should "cheer up": "And when these things begin (not at the end) to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption ('apolutrosis' meaning liberation/deliverance/redemption) draweth nigh." - 21:28

It's Gosple of Matthew which tells those horrible events (judgements) very detailed, and it tells to endure to the end: "But he that shall endure ('hupomeno' means to remain/endure/preserve) unto the end, the same shall be saved ('sozo' to be safe/preserve)." - 24:13

And Matthew continues about saving: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved ('sozo' to be safe/preserve): but for the elect's (messianic Jews) sake those days shall be shortened." - 24:22

Read the whole chapters again and compare Luke 21 vs Matthew 24. Times of the Gentiles is about to end (or fulfilled), but the times of the Jews is coming up, and soon those 144,000 Jews will stand up and continue spreading the Gospel, where we (Gentiles) left it. Paul tells about the current status of Israel and it's future:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." - Rom. 11:25-27

Revelation (chapter 11) speaks about two witnesses appearing up in Jerusalem during the tribulation, and it's generally accepted that they are Elijah and Enoch, both yet to face the death. Now, interestingly again the Old Testament ends with a promise:

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." - Mal. 4:5-6

[–] julielb67 13 years ago

As I said before we're going to just have to agree to disagree. Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 all give the same account written by three different men. Nothing in those chapters teach rapture, just the opposite. And we are to heed both Christ and Paul's warnings for us not to be deceived on this very subject. If Christians were not to worry, they would have told us so. Instead they both say beware.

The Day of the Lord will bring God's wrath on those that fall away in the apostasy and have worshiped Antichrist/Satan- and this starts the 1000 yr reign. Christ himself says he comes "immediately after" the tribulation. And I have to take his word for it.

And again, the 144, 000 are not all Jews. Only 12, 000 are. The rest are from all the tribes of Israel as stated in Rev.

And most scholars agree that restrainer is Holy Ghost of the chruch (christians)

And most scholars don't agree. Only Protestants that have been teaching the rapture doctrine since the 1800's. It's actually a relatively new doctrine in the grand scheme of things. And it doesn't make any sense for the Holy Spirit to be removed when those that are delivered up, it will be the Holy Spirit speaking through them. As stated in Luke.

What's sad is so many Christians are expecting Christ first so they will be primed and ready to worship Antichrist (which in the orginal greek means instead of) when he's here sitting on the throne proclaiming to be their savior. This is the great apostasy. And if all the saved people are gone how is is possible to have a great apostasy? Again, it makes no sense. Unsaved people have nothing to fall away from.

But as Christ says, he comes at an hour most do not expect....

[–] ergomane 13 years ago

You can ignore all the things I've put out from the Scripture and I've shown how consistent it's about it. The rapture before tribulation has came up year 300 or so, but as usually with prophetic messages, they come more clear when the time is getting closer and closer. And it doesn't matter if you call them jews, hebrews or isrealites; they all mean the same folk non-Gentile.

And it makes perfect sense why Hollywood is marketing UFOs "capturing" people; just because satan knows what's the next event and he wants to use the occasion to fool people.

If you are waiting for Antichrist; you end up think about the earthly things and survival of the upcoming catastrophes. True followers of Christ (reborn in Holy Spirit) wouldn't fooled up by Antichrist and would reveal him for the big audience. But if you wait for Christ, then you can raise your head as Luke says and you can smile. Luke actually warns about that kind of mental attitude: "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth." - Luke 21:34

With all these supporting places in the Scripture, I had to change my mind from post-tribulation view. But I understand your view also, because I used to think that way. Most probably we're both wrong, but just try to understand that other people can interpret the scripture differently than you. None of us has the perfect view of it; only He has.

And as you said, He is coming and makes a surprise!

[–] julielb67 13 years ago

I've not ignored anything you've put down in scripture but pulling out verses here and there loses the context of how things should be read. When you posted some verses I even asked but did you read further down so you wouldn't lose context? Like 1st Thes chapter 5 and even 2nd Thes after you posted 1st Thes chapter 4. And when you posted Corinthians I said, it says "we are all" changed at the last trump. All means all. Show me in that verse that supports just the church being changed. And you notice it says changed, not raptured away. That verse does not support a rapture, just the opposite.

That's why I actually read the entire Bible for myself about 10 years ago so I wouldn't be deceived anymore by what people had taught through the years. It was something I should have done as a Christian years ago but chose to put my faith into man rather than as Timothy said, study to show myself approved. I went out, bought a Greek/Hebrew King James Bible (as it's the only bible that can be translated back properly, non of the new versions can with a Strong's Concordance as well.

Read entirely it flows together perfectly, the old with the new, and I never read any evidence while read chapter by chapter verse by verse that supports Christ coming back before the tribulation. Nothing. And nothing you have posted supports it as well. You talk about me ignoring (which I haven't) but you have purposely chosen to ignore both warnings by Christ and Paul. If Paul says that day is not going to happen until Antichrist is here, that's all I need to know. Those verses are not left up to interpretation and neither is Christ's teaching in Matthew 24. The disciples specifically ask for signs of "his coming" and the signs for the end of the world and Christ lays it out perfectly. And yet people would still choose not to believe him. If you choose to ignore his teachings than you wouldn't be a true believer to begin with, so yes, you would set yourself up to be deceived.

If you are waiting for Antichrist; you end up think about the earthly things and survival of the upcoming catastrophes

We are to put the full amour on at this time to withstand the fiery darts of satan. We are to be watchmen and studying, not thinking of earthly things, quite the opposite. But be not mistaken, he comes in peacefully and prosperly and as Paul says he comes in disguised as an angel of light. And in Revelation he's described as a lamb (wants to play Christ) but speaks like a dragon. This is how he deceives the whole world. Anti means instead of Christ. He comes instead of Christ. Paul makes no doubt about it in 2nd Thes. And because people would rather believe the lie God will send this strong delusion.

God himself says in EZek 13 he's against those people that teach his people to fly away to save their souls. But they still want the first boat out instead of waiting for the true one.

The irony of this conversation is I used to believe in the rapture until I actually read the Bible for myself -taking out any preconceived notions and wanting just the truth period. And I found it. And I didn't have to change scripture or take verses out of context to support it.

And there are many different believers as well as scholars that believe this as well.

[–] Mithrandir-Olorin888 13 years ago

The "Gathering" of Saints IS the Rapture, so your simply twist Matthew 24.

There is no basis for saying the "Congregation" is the Restrainer.

[–] Mithrandir-Olorin888 13 years ago

Lots people like think the "Last Trump" is one of the other of the 7 in Revelation or of the Feast of Trumpets. But if the Fall Festivals are Prophetic of the 2nd Advent, then logically their in fact the same, the Trumpets sounded to Herald the Jewish New Year are symbolic of the 7 Trumpets the herald the End of The Age.

[–] Blueghost 13 years ago

Are you really this much of a nutcase, or is it just the day you posted this nonsense?

Get a clue, get real and get a life.

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Mithrandir-Olorin888 13 years ago

I've come to lean towards Mid-Trib, I just posted a thread explain my problems with the Pre-Trib view.

The Jewish Fall Holy Days are probably Prophetic of the 2nd Advent, but how that plays we don't know for certain yet. The Jews of 1st Century Judea wound up being pretty wrong on the 1st Advent.

Prior to Festival of Trumpets, they sound one trumpet per day, except Sabbath, and the last trumpet is blown at the start of festival!!

The 7 Trumpets (Hence first half of the Tribulation) are probably what the allegory here is.

The Tribulation is in 2 parts, the 2nd Half is the Wrath is is the only part you can argue The Church is promised not to go through.

Another note, the years the Jews count as Jubilees now may not be accurate anymore. For one there have been disagreement repeatedly as to whether it's a 49 year period or 50 years.

In resurrection we do not have sex, thus no children

This statement is false, it's based on what Yeshua said in Matthew 22:30

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

He only says there is no Marriage. Reproduction isn't addressed.

It certainly doesn't mean we're not biologically capable of Reproduction, because the point is comparing us to the Angels, who have reproduced with Humans (Geneses 6, 2 Peter 2:4, and Jude 6). The only reason they don't reproduce amongst each other is that their all Male.

The Resurrection is Man's Restoration to how he was Before Adam's Fall. Adam and Ever where already ordered to reproduce before the Fall.

At the start of the Millennium the Earth is populated only be Resurrected Believers who's Eternal Destiny is already decided, so the people Satan Temps at the end of it can only be people born during the Period.

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] life4all 13 years ago

Can you elaborate a bit regarding Jesus not fulfilling Jewish Messianic prophecies?

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] julielb67 13 years ago

That's why Jews are still waiting

And that's exactly why many of them will fall into antichrist's hands. He's primed and ready to bring that one worldism to them.

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] life4all 13 years ago

Do you believe it is possible to predict the future?

[–] julielb67 13 years ago

Come on, one doesn't need to be brainwashed to see how it's all going to fall into place.

Many Christians are waiting on their rapture, many Jews on their Messiah, and the list goes on with the many different religions. The world is going more global everyday, people crying peace, peace peace, boom, here comes Antichrist (which in the Greek means "instead of")/Satan bringing that peace and fixing the economy, etc and he's going to play everyone's messiah. Then after everyone feels that peace (although it's a fake peace) the real Christ comes at that hour most do not expect, suprise. But it's not just Revelation that predicts this, Daniel as well as others do too.

If you feel I'm brainwashed so be it, to each his own and we all have to sail our own ship.......

[–] bloopville 13 years ago

I am fairly conversant with ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek. I could go into a long dissertation as to why Christian Apologists are all wrong, but it would be futile.

Instead, I will just point out that the god you believe in must be either extremely cruel, or not very powerful. If he is who you say he is, he would know how difficult it is to understand the bible, and would have known before it was written that millions of well meaning people would fail to understand it, because of the limitations in human intellect that he, himself, created. This thread is a clear indication of that. There are christians here well versed in the bible, using their best intellectual tools to understand what it means, and yet they come to opposite conclusions on the Rapture, Tribulation and all those other eschtological things.

There are a few choice:

1. God is cruel and built the universe so that many people who truly tried to follow him would fail.

2. He is not a very competent god and couldn't influence the writing of the scripture and the versions handed down sufficiently to make them clearly understandable.

3. God is a joker with a good sense of humor. He doesn't really care if you get it right, as long as you try.

4. There is no god and humans who desperately wish to believe life has a purpose project their own wants and desires into words that are very difficult to understand.

5. The bible has nothing to do with whatever god might be out there.

You decide. Your chances of being right are just as good as anybody else's.

[–] julielb67 13 years ago

I am fairly conversant with ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek..

Just curious from this as well as your post, have you read the Bible?

[–] samanthaseaotter 13 years ago

What a strange place for a religious discussion. The issue is the MOVIE MADE FROM THE LEFT BEHIND BOOK, not religion.

If you want to critique that what is in the movie is not or is in the book upon which it is based, this IS the right place.

If you want to critique what is true/not true in the Rapture/Bible, etc., you are in the WRONG place.

Samantha
"I didn't say that. The camera must have misheard me!"

[–] julielb67 13 years ago

I don't think it's strange at all given the subject matter of the movie. I would think there would be a lot of stranger places than this one.

[–] life4all 13 years ago

It is somewhat intrinsic for such discussions to be part of the thread.

[–] samanthaseaotter 13 years ago

"Somewhat" yes. But it's been turned to a "who is right in their opinion on the incident" not what happened in the movie.

Samantha
"I didn't say that. The camera must have misheard me!"

[–] julielb67 12 years ago

Well, I just see it as the perfect springboard to plant seeds about the timing-which yes often turns into a debate. But for myself as a Christian, I often see that other Christians take this movie as absolute truth when it's not biblical. That's all.

But you can go over all of imdb and see that many movies as well as tv shows turn into religiious, politics, left vs right discussions and so on. Some even stranger than this-having nothing to do with the subject matter, etc. So that's why your post surprised me.

[–] NovaIncognito 12 years ago

Yeah. What kills me is that despite these nutjobs have just as much chance at getting it right as anybody else, these are the kinds of nutjobs who KNOW they are right. They have absolute faith, leaving no room for doubt or question, making them, of course, close minded. No truly open minded person can believe they know for sure that there is a single supreme creator, much less the ego it has to believe that not only that they know that there is a single supreme creator, but that they believe they can comprehend this supreme being's intentions, and master plan.

I am sorry, but how idiotic do you have to be to think that a being powerful enough to create what these people believe he has created, yet believe he is still somehow very human with human ideas, thoughts, plans, and petty emotion. I mean, think about how petty they think their god is. He knows everything, therefore, he knows whether we are going to be faithful followers of him well before he even creates us. What kind of god would create humans despite already knowing that they are not going to believe yet creates them anyway just so they can ultimately be punished and tortured...for ETERNITY, of course...when they really had no chance, and god knew it.

There is open-mindedness, which accepts all possibilities, however, tends to lend more weight to more realistic ideas while not committing to any particular belief. That of course is agnosticism.

Then there is a personal belief in a supreme being that one has. They simply believe in one thing more than the other things, and generally keep that belief to themselves without harrassing other people, judging other peoples' way of life, or feeling the need to preech at other people or recruit other people into their "cause." Finally, while this type happens to believe in one thing more than other things, they still are not "certain" nor do they believe they are right, they just happen to have their opinion.

The last group are the dangerous ones who are close-minded, mostly through brainwashing, just like most peoples' beliefs on other issues, only, religious brainwashing is so much worse because its started at a young age and driven into children while their minds are still developing, and is purposefully done this way by these religious groups so that these people will have a difficulty believing in anything else, and will do everything they can to force them to pass their beliefs on to THEIR children, to assure the continuance of their power of this group of people. In the United States, one of the more powerful examples of this is the Republican Party's endorsement of these religious beliefs, and their belief that the United States, despite the original purpose people came to the US was explicitely for freedom to believe in any form of religion, is a nation built on the principles of Christianity, despite the lack of religious affiliation among many of our founding fathers and their writings on the belief of separation between church and state.

However, despite the fact there is supposed to be a separation between church and state, religions do not have to pay taxes despite being able to purchase and acquire land with the money their followers tithe to them, only to do nothing with this land. These religious groups exercise power through their economic advantage of not having to pay taxes, as well as their more powerful members being allowed to donate money to the religion or their "church" in order to be able to write that money off on their taxes as a charitable donation. However, people use this system, like Romney, who gave 4 million to the mormon church, and because of that and using other loopholes, only paid 14% income tax on the 12 million dollars he earned in 2011. Who do you think has to make up for that loss of taxes on that 4 million? The rest of the nation. Is it right the rest of the nation has to pay money because Romney would rather give it to the church than to his government? And then of course, all the mormon church has to do is name Romoney as one of their activists, and they can use that 4 million romney gave to them to pay for his transportation around the nation, his food and lodging expenses, etc.. Basically, this allows people like Romney and other powerful religious figures to get of paying taxes on their money and still being able to use all of it for themselves.

And funnily enough, despite these religious people actually believing they are religious because of some morally superior viewpoint (I pity you if you need a bible to know the difference between right and wrong), yet they and their republican party are the ones who start all the wars the US fights and has to pay for. These are the people who want to tell other people how to live their lives, to judge others and decide which groups of people should have certain rights and which group of people should not. These religious people believing they are morally superior, yet they are some of the most hateful, fake, selfish, and just outright cruel people on the planet.

I think whats the funniest is that these people think they are better than muslims because muslims believe they can gain entry into heaven by killing "infidels" (despite the pope sanctioning word that the killing of muslims back during the crusades gained you entry into heaven). However, these Christians believe that ultimately god is going to come back and save THEM, and the rest of us non-believers will suffer an endless eternity of agonizing pain, suffering and torture. Yeah, those are much greater beliefs than Muslims, only that, at least the Muslims are brave enough to take credit for the lives they take. Christians hide behind their god when it comes to their moral inedptitudes, proclaiming that it was gods will when certain people they dislike die. Yeah, thats much better.

Why is it 99% of Christians are almost the antithesis of everything Jesus Christ was and stood for?

Sorry, no animals in the discussion hall. You have to dismount your high horse to participate.

[–] julielb67 12 years ago

What kind of god would create humans despite already knowing that they are not going to believe yet creates them anyway just so they can ultimately be punished and tortured...for ETERNITY, of course...when they really had no chance, and god knew it.

He doesn't know, everyone has free will but the elect- and there is no eternal hell. That's unbiblical.

I'm not here to debate with non believers but I will say that it's the traditions of men that have been handed down in the name of religion that hurts the religion itself many times.