Was literally handed to him by Kevin Nash. So you non-complainers can all stop complaining already about John Cena surpassing The Nature Boys recognized record.
They call me the Mayor, 'Cause I spend all my days here
Flair's record is more important in context of his time. Most guys were lucky to hold the world title once. Hulk Hogan holding it five times or Harley Race holding it seven were considered the absolute height of achievement. Even by the time Flair got that lost title run, guys like Austin and Rock only had about 6-7 world titles at most.
Cena, Batista, HHH and Orton have eclipsed that. Sure, it's only a select few who get into or close to the double digit title reigns, but that has become what being a 5 to 7 time champ used to be. Consider that Chris Jericho is a 6 time world champ now and he never had the company built on him like those four had.
'I don't make deals with someone pointing a gun at me.'
'A principle?'
'A Habit.'
Yep.. adding to that (correct me if I'm wrong) Ric Flairs title reigns are over something like a 25-30 year period.. Cena is set to equal that in half the time.. which is just *beep* ridiculous if you ask me.. if cenas hangs around another 10 years at this rate he will be a 40 time world champ...
shareCena also had the advantage of 2 separate world titles that he was eligible for at any given time that both counted towards his total.
DAMN
Overall, to me this era is the Money in the Bank generation. That concept has ruined the perceived prestige of the World Heavyweight Championships. Because why flesh out a compelling story when you can just test the people you push by giving them a quick, cheap Title win? It must be good because the city always pops big. Just listen to that reaction Dolph Ziggler is getting!
John Cena understandably deserves his success. He's a fighting Champion through and through. Ric's last couple of reigns in WCW are sort of a joke.
They call me the Mayor, 'Cause I spend all my days here
How's MitB any different than the Royal Rumble...? You win either you get a shot at the title, and the Royal Rumble has been around a while.
Yeah, MitB, if used on a champ after a good match, is basically a gimme. The concept is the same though.
But Cena's record isn't as impressive as Flair's for reasons already mentioned in this thread...regardless of how Flair got his 16th title.
According to me, yes. I am the person it's usually according to when I'm talking.share
The concept of MITB is not the same as the rumble; when you win Money in the Bank, you can get a title shot whenever you want while a show is going on, the rumble winner already has a predetermined title shot. There's a big difference there no matter how you look at it. I think it's beyond played out now, the MITB, there's only so many scenario's you can do before you run out of ideas.
When it comes to Cena he had a lot of title reigns that were unneccesary, that devalued the hell out of the championship at the time. Flair had a legendary career, and Cena's will never reach that height no matter how many times he wins the belt.
How will Cena never reach Flair's height? For the first half of his career Ric was a regional guy. Nobody wants to admit it because Cena is still active and the distaste for him is all too recent, but he has reached Flair's height and even more. And I'm sure Ric will be one of the first people to admit that.
They call me the Mayor, 'Cause I spend all my days here
but he has reached Flair's height and even more.Not even close. Nothing Cena has done is revolutionary, original, or even memorable. He's just been putting up meaningless stats in meaningless feuds with meaningless promos in a meaningless era in a predetermined sport. He doesn't belong in the conversation with ANY wrestling greats, which is more disturbing than his phony stat padded title wins. No one remembers a wrestler for selling the most sweat bands, which is the only reason he is rewarded with title shots, and we all know how slanted and biased his marketing sales are. share
Why complain about people complaining about Cena reaching Flair's record? Why have there been posters on this board who come right out and say they hope Cena matches and/or surpasses the record? They are likely from the newer generation(s) of fans who don't know how much more seriously pro wrestling was run at the time of most of Flair's reigns than any of Cena's. I remember very well when it seemed like a legitimate sport and Vince McMahon had not done his infamous kayfabe breaking yet. I think that occasion preceded all Cena's reigns. Once the Attitude era was over, wrestling really went downhill as far as fans being able to take it seriously and suspend belief.
But the main thing of concern is that it was easier to win a title, let alone get a shot. Politics got more involved than ever, and rewarding with a title shot or reign got more common. Many of Cena's were to reward and encourage more Make-A-Wish
requests and Cena merchandise sales, since he sold much more than anyone. There was also the rewards for being the company spokesman for the causes WWE was supporting and to push his movies. I think many reigns were also because of his appearance an image- that they appealed so much to kids who were buying up all that merchandise, so WWE wanted to encourage them to be his fans and generate more money for the company. Maybe it was that way with Hulk Hogan back in the 1980's too, but it got ridiculous with Cena. I don't remember Hogan supporting so many causes or ever being a spokesman. In the 1980's and 90's, focus was more on the wrestling alone.
Flair went a tougher, more commendable route. Most of his reigns were in that era. He wrestled all over the world, appearing in different companies, but mostly wrestling in NWA Georgia/Mid-South. There was no "superstar" making desire in those companies like their is today. You just had to strive to be the best in the eyes of the company heads. Now, you strive more to gain favor in a general sense. Men were really men in those days. If You took a 2008 Cena and had him start fresh in 1980's NWA, he'd be crying like a baby over how much tougher it was- not to mention how life in the locker rooms was. He might stay a jobber or get no higher than the midcard. Roddy Piper's book detailed how hard the whole experience of a wrestling career was back then- and in his appearances after WCW, he wore that black jacket out of discontentment for how much of a joke the industry had become compared to his day.
So Flair's record is much more commendable than Cena's and it's a crying shame that Cena even came near it.
Bill Gates was here 👉 X
Dude, Flair was never really a tough guy and neither was Piper. Guys like Sammartino (who drew more than him) and Scott Steiner think he's a joke. I imagine if Cena started out in the '80s he'd be Hogan's main adversary in the WWF. He would have been similar to Sting, only a bigger deal and a bigger draw.
They call me the Mayor, 'Cause I spend all my days here
Lol, everything you said about Cena can be said for Flair, he's not a legitimate tough guy, they're both performers.
shareI think Flair only had two wwe titles. That means 14 in the WCW which wasn't as good.
But titles aside. I'll take Flair when he was jet plane riding, limoscene riding WOOOOOO over any appearance Cena ever made. And the 4 horsement were so classic.
His persona as a rich guy was fantastic. What the hell does loyalty, hustle, respect mean, it's incoherent.
And how does Cena take a beating. Nothing compared to the Flair flop. Or the crawl up the ringpost slow so the other guy can slam you.
And I think guys who can be heels and babyfaces are superior. I loved when Flair in WWE poked someone in the eyes and the announcers said, dirtiest player in the game, and it was a compliment.
I'll change my mind if Cena goes heel for his next tittle. hahaha
I've never put too much stock in wrestling "records" . Even Undertakers streak, while a great storyline, was just that, a storyline. the WWE lucked into it cause they never had him lose during the early years of it. Flairs 16 world titles were mostly just a product of how the NWA did business. Up until his loss to Sting in 1990 hed pretty much win the belt back right away. During Hogans 4 year WWF title reign Flair lost his belt 3 times for a total of 3 months combined. It was just how the companies did business. the WWF would have their non transitional champions hold the belt for long periods while the NWA would have dominant champions(like Flair and Race) who would lose their titles more often. thats why you cant judge greatness by title reigns.
To be honest, and i know ill catch heat for this but i always found Ric Flair to be a bit overrated. now let me say he is one of the greatest performers in wrestling history and one of the main reasons the NWA was able to withstand the WWF expansion in the 1980s. but i don't think Flair was as big of a name as he thought he was. i just think that back then alot of the midcard WWF guys(Dibiase,Roberts,Duggan,Rude,Hennig) were bigger names than Flair was and certainly others like Warrior and Savage definetley were. and while many may not want to hear this WCW didnt get anywhere until Hogan came on board. now would i say John Cena has had a better career than Ric Flair? no, but Cena, in my opinion, has been a bigger name and draw than Flair ever was. i look at it this way. if there is a top level of the greatest names in the history of wrestling Hogan, Austin, and Rock are right on the top. Flair and Cena are on that next level just under them.
just think that back then alot of the midcard WWF guys(Dibiase,Roberts,Duggan,Rude,Hennig) were bigger names than Flair was
and while many may not want to hear this WCW didnt get anywhere until Hogan came on board.
Sorry for the late reply here. heres what i meant:
I meant that in 1988 if you showed random people pictures of those people i mentioned and a picture of Ric Flair more people would know the WWF guys. WWF was just much more of a national scope. their stars were on talk shows and other things that non wrestling fans watch so theyd be more recognizable(which was probably the word i should have used).
for the other thing, yea, i should have been more specific. i meant WCW never really got anywhere until the NWO storyline began. I'm not downplaying Flair at all and what he meant to wrestling. im just saying its a tad overblown.
I'm assuming you grew up in WWF territory as did I. So, yes, to me growing up, any WWF midcarder was a bigger star than Ric Flair. When I grew up, most people in NYC didn't have cable so we didn't get to see Jim Crockett Promotions. For one season, it aired on broadcast TV at the same time as Superstars. JCP was popular in Long Island where they had cable.
But having done some research on the history on the subject, I learned that Flair was only second to Hogan in drawing power during the height of the Hulkamania era. Before Hulkamania, Flair was consistently one of the top draws in wrestling throughout the 70's and early 80's. It fell apart for Flair when JCP officially became WCW and their business crashed for a while. It picked back up for Flair when he joined WWF and he was second to Hogan again. By the time Flair went back to WCW, most people had cable and he was drawing new fans. In the pre-Nitro era, Hogan didn't draw for a couple years until his famous heel turn. They were both big draws during the Nitro era until that fell apart. Hogan moreso due to NWO's popularity.
Flair was consistently a top draw in the 70s, 80s and 90s. He definitely deserves to be on that tier with Hogan, Austin, and Rock.
George Carlin: It's all bullsh-t and it's bad for ya.
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I think Flair only had two wwe titles. That means 14 in the WCW which wasn't as good.
I agree with you about flair not being as big as HE thinks. Henning was and is at the top imo because he came at you from a multitude of moves. He rarely ever used the same 2-4 moves like flair and hogan did. The up over the top rope--OLD and the dazed, walking a couple steps( sometimes shadow boxing) then falling flat on his face(yawn). It only took me 2 matches to figure out his moves. Same thing for Hogan. Now Cena is the same if you ask me as far as moves go. He's a bigger name because of his marketability(Tv talk shows, movie's,etc). Some of the names you mentioned have a variety of moves to choose from. And it's a shame to say but most of today's wrestler's are ripping off moves,gimmicks,looks,and so on from the wrestler's of the past. I know the OP posted about Rick(yawn) Flair's 16 WC but one day 16x WORLD champ will be a forgotten number..
sharePeople can't the handle that John Cena is Thee WWE (not F) guy. He's carried the company for almost 15 years not had it in a chokehold, Ric Flair is a legend, with a legendary record. If anyone deserves to break that record it's John Cena. He's the biggest wrestling household name there's been since Hogan and Austin and hes arguably done the most for the WWE as a talent. He didn't leave like Hogan, he didn't walk out like Austin (or Punk lol) he's not a problem like HBK used to be, and he's never faltered from Pro Wrestling like Rock. He deserves it, plain and simple.
sharethis is another thread (overall) about how meaningless the titles are now. let john cena have it, the titles stopped meaning anything years ago by allowing so many guys to hold them and by allowing so many wins. it's dead, wwe killed off the meaning. i'm not a big fan of his but there is no legitimate denial for now recognizing that cena is an alltime great for being at the top for as long as he has. the greatest wrestlers are those with the star power.
Larry Gaylord: "a billion people come in on a day off, and they don't flip out!"
What kept him on top for so long? It was that WWE wasn't making any new stars and they refused to give many good potential stars a chance to show they could be a top guy. WWE just loved the bucks Cena was raking in with his merchandise, his WWE films, the fact that he raised WWe stock, the fact that his image was a big help for the shows to be and stay PG and the fact that his make A Wish requests were getting the company positive attention for the image that they (supposedly) care about people outside the company. Sting wasn't used in any ratings direction for WCW shows and the company didn't make a big deal (if any) about his Make A Wish requests and WCW didn't bother so much with charities and other good causes. Yet Sting was the man in WCW- a big draw, hero to kids, and very popular among others. Even Hulk Hogan in his WWF heyday wasn't quite to his company what Cena has been to his era's WWE. Hogan's era WWF didn't care near as much about getting an image of caring about special causes.
Now, what kept Ric Flair on top? It was his work in the ring, his character and charisma, his work with the Four Horsemen and his willingness to put people over and help make new stars. Without him and what the company let him do, Sting wouldn't have gotten big and Dusty Rhodes wouldn't have been so popular after the late 1970's/maybe the very early 1980's.
WWE messed it up for Cena. He could have been used well enough to be worthy of being compared with Sting, but he was given a corny gimmick, corny outfits, corny catchphrases, never allowed to put people over like Flair did and help make new stars- WWE just wanted a "golden boy" to help them appease people who have been against pro wrestling and so the company can rake in money doing it.
If Cena had an ounce of integrity and any true love of the business, he wouldn't have let WWE use him to drag wrestling (especially WWE) down, even if it meant quitting or being fired. He could have gone to ROH or TNA or MMA (with new, extensive training). But Ric Flair did nothing but help the industry. I don't think it would be a huge stretch to say that without him, there would be no current pro wrestling today. Any fan interest in the industry would have probably died with WCW, or soon after- assuming WCW would have made it near as long as it did.
As for the titles meaning nothing, maybe they mean less than they used to, but it's not like they might as well put them on the likes of David Arquette or Vince Russo, right? It's not like they should put them on Shane or Stephanie. They should still be used as the titles for the divisions they represent, and they should go back to meaning a lot. So they "might as well" not give Cena the title. Let AJ or Dean have it- and I hope they make Cena and WWE feel like Cena isn't heavyweight champion material anymore.
Bill Gates was here 👉 X
Cena didn't drag WWE into PG, Linda McMahon and Chris Benoit did. John Cena was the only guy they could turn PG and still keep taking in the same or even more loads of cash with. He's actually responsible for carrying the company through one of its publicly darkest times.
shareIf anyone deserves to break that record it's John Cena.
At this point it's about as meaningful as Jerry Lawler winning the southern title 40 something times or whatever it was.
shareWho cares if Cena breaks Flair's record? The Nature Boy is actually a 23-time world champion anyway.
shareI wouldn't be able to stand hearing that Cena reached it- especially that he broke it. Most or all fans of Flair and his era would say the same.
Bill Gates was here 👉 X
It's not like they should put them on Shane or Stephanie.
stephanie was the ladies champion for months. and vince mcmahon was the world champion one time. shane wouldn't be much more of a stretch at this point if they in fact did do that.
Larry Gaylord: "a billion people come in on a day off, and they don't flip out!"
Ric Flair don't lose that number
It's the only one you own
You can use it to pay your bar tabs off
When you get home
They call me the Mayor, 'Cause I spend all my days here
It is all about context.
Those who claim that Cena has had too many short, meaningless reigns to pad his record with should note that nobody has had more short, meaningless reigns to pad his record with than Flair himself.
For the length of his reigns, Flair was unremarkable in his era. His longest reign paled in comparison to those by Sammartino, Morales, Backlund and Hogan in the WWF, Gagne and Bockwinkel in the AWA and Race in the NWA. Flair was the original Edge. On the contrary, Cena has been a remarkable champion in this era. His longest reign was the longest in WWE in 20 years. Only Samoa Joe and Daniel Bryan in ROH had longer world championship reigns. His second longest tied the HHH and JBL Reigns of Terror.
Flair also existed in an era where the top stars were spread across various territories. It’s easier to be the Man when Hogan is wrestling elsewhere. You might argue that Cena has existed in a weaker era; however the top stars in his era have been in his promotion and Cena rose to the top and became the Man in wrestling, something Flair never did because Hogan was the Man. In fact, Flair only held the top world championship twice, in 1992, in the WWF.
Flair also had a monopoly on the world championship by virtue of being one of the only wrestlers who could afford the mandatory deposit for the belt. I believe Dusty Rhodes, Tommy Rich and others had to take out loans or pawn items to afford the deposit. How many reigns would Cena have if the same practice existed today and only he could afford it? Alas, Cena hasn’t had the benefit of being able to buy his championship reigns.
Cena will break Flair’s record in half the time. If you consider that disrespectful, spare a thought for Lou Thesz. Thesz wrestled on and off for 58 years and only held the world championship three times. His third reign came 14 years after his first. Race did it in six. Flair in three. I doubt Thesz cared then, and nor will Flair care when Cena surpasses him.