MovieChat Forums > Mansfield Park (1999) Discussion > Doesn't anyone has issues with Sir Thoma...

Doesn't anyone has issues with Sir Thomas?


Having read the book a few times and seen all of the film versions, I am left wondering how each adaptation could have possibly missed the true character of Sir Thomas. Though he wishes Fanny to accept Crawford, he does not force her, he merely feels that she doesn't realize her own feelings and how the match would help her family etc. He is never shown to be anything but an upstanding moral man, not cruel and hypocritical as the films show. I guess the cause is simply people from our time who do not understand Austen's world.

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I disagree. I understand the reason why the Mansfield adaptions have portrayed Sir Thomas as they have. Sir Thomas was stated throughout the book as being someone who was "oppressive". Fanny was said to have been frightened of him in the beginning of the book, and as much as his children loved to pretend that they weren't afraid of him, they were. Their wild behavior when he was gone showed how much he oppressed them by their desire to rebel. Tom and Maria couldn't wait to rebel and Julia eloped a man she didn't love simply to get out of her father's house and away from the oppression that she feared. He may have found Fanny a comfort because she, unlike his own children did not rebel against him, but she shriveled in his shadow. I wouldn’t say that Sir Thomas was so unkind and feeling though. He did ask Maria if she wanted out of her engagement and he didn’t force Fanny to marry Mr. Crawford although he pressed it on her well enough.

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I have never read the book, but I was personally creeped out by Sir Thomas. He seemed to have this attraction to Fanny that was extremely wrong! I don't know, maybe it's just my modern mind reading too into something?

"George Bailey, I'll love you til the day I die."

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The Sir Thomas of the book isn't like the Sir Thomas in the film. In the film, he did seem to have an unnatural interest in his niece and it was very disturbing!

The people have appointed me. I am their leader. I must follow them.

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Agree. But it was only in one scene. She keeps saying "please" as he complements her in what seemed to me to be a somewhat lustful manner.











Unless I mock, my heart will break--
I will burn you at the stake.

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It's a looong time since I read Mansfield Park, but my memory of Sir Thomas is not that he was "oppressive" - or at any rate I do not believe that is how Austen wished the reader to see him.

One of the prime duties of a parent in Sir Thomas' position was to ensure that his children were brought up with strong principles. Their education could usually be left to others, but their character and the standard of their behaviour was something that would be formed by parental action or lack of it. This is why, for example, Mr Bennett in Pride and Prejudice realises that Lydia's behaviour is in some measure his fault. He let up grow up without correcting either her sense of decorum (nil) or her morals (ditto).

Sir Thomas is, in the book, an upright but disengaged parent who has allowed his daughters to grow up without him realising that their mother took no interest in them, and their aunt thought they could do no wrong. This is the era of "spare the rod and spoil the child," and those two are clearly spoiled rotten. That is, they have been indulged and become corrupted. A good father, in that period, would have kept a much sterner eye and firmer control over the development of his children - at least once he realised that no one else was doing it.

When Sir Thomas returns from Antigua, he realises how out of control his family, especially his daughters, have become. I think he also realises that Fanny - alone of the women at Mansfield Park - has a strong inner moral compass. She may be too timid to speak out, but she cannot be bullied or cajoled into doing something that she thinks is wrong. Sir Thomas then tries to do what he thinks is best for Fanny - which might not be what either Fanny or the reader wishes for her, but which accords with the values of the period when the book was written.

I know that Mansfield Park is the trickiest of the major Austen works to film, since its values and its heroine are the ones least likely to appeal to a modern audience. Patience, goodness and timidity are difficult to make attractive these days - especially when the heroine also has "a delicate constitution". It would be nice, however, to see a writer/director make a real attempt, rather than simply re-writing the book with a different heroine altogether.

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I agree with you. :)

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I agree that the book adaptations (especially this one) have done great disservice to Sir Thomas. Like some posters above I did find some unintended (I believe) creepiness in some of his conversations with Fanny. I also don't understand why did they have to involve the slave issue. Was it something I missed in the book? Maybe it was unwritten understanding that he was involved in the slave exploitation in that time in England. But even if it was I found Tom's drawing really too much for adaptation of Jane Austen's book. In the end I must say that I found Sir Thomas in the book the only good parent. All the other older characters are typical Jane Austen caricatures and much more flawed than Sir Thomas himself.

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Sir Thomas owns property in Antigua, and that's all we really know; but that would have been enough for Austen's readers to know that he was a slave-owner. All plantations in the Caribbean then were run by slave labor.
But I do agree with you about Sir Thomas--he is the only parent in Austen's novels who learns and grows from his mistakes and is a better individual and better parent by the end. And for this film to ignore that and make him into a lecherous leering uncle and someone who beats and rapes his slaves completely distorts his character.

Come, we must press against the tide of naughtiness. Mind your step.

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[deleted]

"Sir Thomas owns property in Antigua, and that's all we really know…”

In fact we know a good deal more.

Austen was keenly aware of the circumstances confronting the plantation owners of Antigua during the period covered in the novel. Her family had a long and close relationship with one of them and two of her brothers, both naval men, often wrote to her expressing their contempt of the treatment of the enslaved people’s in the British Caribbean as well as a dim view of the conduct and character of the owners themselves. Making it obvious that Austen herself shared their point of view concerning slavery.

In the novel, Sir Bertram is shown evading a direct question concerning slaves in Antigua put to him by Fanny; his non-response followed by a short conversation between Fanny and her cousin who is mildly amused by the Baron’s discomfort about the subject.

It might also be noted that the discussions alluding to the activities in Antigua recur several times throughout the story.

We all know that Austen was no fool as well as discreetly anti-slavery during a period a when the slave trade had already been outlawed by England though the question of emancipation of the slaves already held by the plantation owners was continually under discussion both by the general public and Parliament. Several members of which either had economic concerns, or were friends with people who had such concerns in the Caribbean and would’ve continually argued and voted against any efforts to discontinue or reduce the slave workforce in the islands.

So, as you’ve said, Austen’s readers would’ve been very alert and picked up precisely on what she intended them to understand about Sir Bertram and his properties in Antigua.



“Your thinking is untidy, like most so-called thinking today.” (Murder, My Sweet)

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I wonder if the creepy atmosphere of the fatherly figures is a result of the lesbian director. Perhaps she had daddy issues or something. It was a horrible representation of a basically decent character in the book (and they made Mr Price look like a pervert as well).

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[deleted]



"I wonder if the creepy atmosphere of the fatherly figures is a result of the lesbian director."

From Ms. Rozema's IMDB bio page:

"Has two daughters with her partner, the film composer Lesley Barber."

If she is lesbian, credit must be given her for her hard fight against it.

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Lesley Barber is a woman.

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Rapes his slaves and leers at his niece, my as*. He never had a weird interest in Fanny, they were close as told in the book as well. The scene in which he was complimenting her figure was not meant to show lechery or incest, but a kind of possessiveness: he was appraising her like a cow that would sell well soon, ripe for a husband. It was meant to express the sign of the times towards women, not an unnatural interest in her.

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While that may come across clearly in the book, it certainly did not look like that in the movie. It did look seedy, and when combined with the slave issue and Mr Price's odd behaviour as well, it made it look intentional. So it is something that viewers can go "What?! That's all wrong!" at.

"Lots of planets have a north!"

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That's actually my theory about why William doesn't appear in this film -- he's a good young man and she couldn't turn him into anything awful.

http://currentscene.wordpress.com/tag/jane-austen-odyssey/

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Things might have been worse with William included!

A seedy relationship between William and Mrs Norris, or with William and Tom, or Heaven forbid with William and Fanny [hairraise] I'm just thankful all the comments in the book about the strength of filial devotion weren't turned into something really, really vile!!

He looks like what happens when you punch a cow!

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Think about the ending though -- it seems to me that there are hints that Mary and Henry may be up to something.

Speaking of this movie, I watched it again last night because of my on-going Jane Austen project and wrote a brand-new review. Here's a newsflash -- I still hate it.

http://currentscene.wordpress.com/tag/jane-austen-odyssey/

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"A seedy relationship between William and Mrs Norris..."

Oh dear, I can't hear 'Mrs Norris' without thinking 'cat!'

A seedy relationship between William and Mrs Norris the cat, now THAT would have been hair raising.

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[deleted]

Meg, the novel is a double story--you can read it, plausibly, two different ways.

In the normative reading, Sir Thomas is as you say.

In the subversive reading, which Jane Austen ALSO intended to be valid, he is a horrible monster, a pedophile, pretty much the guy you see in Rozema's film.

I have about 15 posts at my blog just about him, including this one in particular:

http://sharpelvessociety.blogspot.com/2011/07/jane-austen-had-strauss-kahns-number.html

Cheers, ARNIE PERLSTEIN

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the movie was/is just awful.

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I know this is an old post, but I very recently finished reading the novel and watched this version of Mansfield Park and was also really disappointed with how they portrayed Sir Thomas. Sure, he was an absent father for most of the novel but I hated the gruesome twist they threw in the movie about him abusing his slaves physically/sexually. On top of the fact that it didn't really serve a purpose in the plot of the movie.

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I just tried to watch this version again and was not interested enough in it to finish it. I am by nature determined to try to like each adaptation of a Jane Austen novel, but this one takes the most effort. I think the actors did a fine job doing what they were directed to do...I just didn't like what they were directed to do. To each his/her own, I guess. I prefer the stagey Sylvestra le Touzel/Nicholas Farrell version better and even enjoy the 03 interpretation occasionally.

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In this "adaptation" of Mansfield Park, Sir Thomas is portrayed as a heartless, cruel person - someone who allegedly rapes his slaves in Antigua. This is attempt to bring the novel into the 20th Century. If the contributors to this message board simply adhere to the fact that Sir Thomas was indeed this monster, then what's your opinion of Gerald O'Hara in "Gone With The Wind"? Did the producers of that little film get it wrong by portraying him as a loving, devoted father and husband? No, because even in Margaret Mitchell's era it was considered perfectly appropriate for a 19th century plantation owner to be portrayed as a kind, loving person, who just happens to be a human flesh owner. What you say is most true - "people from our time do not understand Austen's world".

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