Would Gollum have warned them about Shelob before he felt betrayed?


So he originally takes them to the black gate before telling them another way is better. Then later his good side takes over for a while before his bad side takes back over when he thinks Frodo betrayed him.

So if his good side was still in charge, would he have told them about Shelob? He never mentions her at any point to them. You'd think if he was good for a time he'd warn them about a gigantic spider waiting in the tunnel.

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I think it's meant to add a certain tension - if it seems that Gollum might "redeem" himself it's a more interesting story. Both book and film imply that his sense of betrayal might have tipped the balance. A loremaster might be able to fill us in.

Until then:

“And so Gollum found them hours later, when he returned, crawling and creeping down the path out of the gloom ahead. Sam sat propped against the stone, his head dropping sideways and his breathing heavy. In his lap lay Frodo's head, drowned in sleep; upon his white forehead lay one of Sam's brown hands, and the other lay softly upon his master's breast. Peace was in both their faces.
Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over his lean hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back, and slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo's knee--but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment, could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have thought that they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing.”

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I've considered this too.

Sam's wariness of Gollum might have been useful at some points (ala, "the paranoid survive"). But at others, it tipped the balance towards provoking the worst in him (which otherwise seemed to be mitigated by Frodo's empathy and kindness).

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It's interesting that you selected that passage, because that's a pivotal point in the story according to Tolkien. Immediately after that paragraph is where Sam wakes up and accuses Gollum of sneaking. From Tolkien's letter 246 in which he was replying to a reader's questions (bold added for emphasis):

For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale comes…when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum’s tone and aspect…. His repentance is blighted and all Frodo’s pity is…­­­­­wasted. Shelob’s lair became inevitable.


Letter 181 (written to a book reviewer who requested some clarifications of the story), Tolkien again underscored the importance of this particular scene:

By temporizing, not fixing the still not wholly corrupt Sméagol-will towards good in the debate in the slag hole, he weakened himself for the final chance when dawning love of Frodo was too easily withered by the jealousy of Sam before Shelob’s lair. After that he was lost.


So it does appear that Gollum might have been redeemed up until that last interaction with Sam, which was literally just prior to the trio proceeding into Shelob's lair. I'm not sure what Sméagol's "Plan B" would have been in the case that he repented at that point. Confess that he was leading them into a trap and go back down the mountain? Distract Shelob while Frodo and Sam slip through? Sacrifice Sam to Shelob as a distraction?

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Right. It's a beautiful passage in and of itself and it is the turning point in the "redemption of Smeagol" story although Gollum's treatment at the hands of Faramir and his men would have been a factor. It's one of the many "what ifs" in the story. It's interesting that, for all the criticism of Tolkien writing a simplistic tale LotR is really anything but...

Still, Tolkien was big on "unintended consequences". The story seems to be telling us that, no matter what had happened, Gollum would have been unable to allow someone to harm the Ring.

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Still, Tolkien was big on "unintended consequences".
Very true. Evidence of this in contained in some of my favorite passages in the book.

I appreciated reading Tolkien's thoughts in his letters. But I have my own skew on this issue. I wrote this in the past:
Not only did Gollum prove himself a threat with his murderous kin-slaying and trickery with Bilbo, but he displayed treacherous behavior in front of Sam.

In "The Passage of the Marshes" Sam overhears, (without Sméagol's knowledge) the Sméagol/Gollum debate. Gollum is clearly comfortable doing whatever it takes to reacquire the ring. Sméagol is torn by his promise to Frodo. But at one point, Sméagol says, "But there's two of them. They'll wake too quick and kill us... Not now, Not yet." He might feel some affection/allegiance for Frodo but he's also considering the consequences of betraying him.

"Each time that the second thought spoke, Gollum's long hand crept out slowly, pawing towards Frodo, and then was drawn back with a jerk as Sméagol spoke again. Finally both arms, with long fingers flexed and twitching, clawed towards his neck."
Sam interrupted this movement by pretending to wake up at this point.

The first time I read the book, I thought Sam was too harsh on Sméagol. I wondered, just wondered, if Sam had not been so openly distrustful and brusque with Sméagol, if Sméagol could have roused himself free of Gollum.

But in rereading this passage, I couldn't blame Sam for his deep and abiding distrust of Gollum. Sam was not one to 'psychoanalyze' people. He was a simple man with a simple mission: to protect Frodo and to help him with his quest. I'm no longer willing to 'second guess' his decision to completely distrust Gollum.

It's almost as if, what really was needed was both Sam's distrust of Gollum and Frodo's mercy towards Smeagol. If Frodo had been alone, I believe Gollum might have killed him outright, and he certainly would have died at the fangs of Shelob. But if Sam had been the one to interact solely with Gollum, he wouldn't have gotten far at all. Smeagol did emerge at times and did many 'kind' things for the hobbits.
The two approaches were successful together, where each individually might not have been.


of course, the subject of this thread brings up the possibility that, had things gone differently, Gollum might not have taken them to Shelob... which would make my comment about that event moot.

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Well, M, the best sum-up I've seen (yours, I think) is that it was the delicate balance of Frodo's trust and Sam's suspicion that made the fulfillment of the Quest possible. In the end even Gollum's treachery worked for the best.

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He didn't properly "become good" until the internal debate scene. And the editing in the movie implies it's pretty much the next day that Frodo and Sam are captured by Faramir so not a lot of time. Besides, it was still a safer way into Mordor than trying to get through the Black Gate or through Minas Morgul.

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