MovieChat Forums > The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003) Discussion > Eowyn and Faramir

Eowyn and Faramir

posted 8 years ago by ellanegri
18 replies | jump to latest

I love these movies, but it always annoyed me that the romance of Eowyn and Faramir, which contains 1) the most page coverage and 2) the only scripted kiss in the entire trilogy, is glossed over in a quick extended edition scene. Faramir literally saves Eowyn from complete despair, so I thought I'd post the following exchange from the book for those who haven't read them, so they could get a feel for what the movie skipped out on (this comes at the end of the chapter dedicated to their healing sessions in Minas Tirith:

"That I know,’ he said. "You desired to have the love of the Lord Aragorn. Because he was high and puissant, and you wished to have renown and glory and to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on the earth. And as a great captain may to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable. For so he is, a lord among men, the greatest that now is. But when he gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired to have nothing, unless a brave death in battle. Look at me, Éowyn!"

And Éowyn looked at Faramir long and steadily; and Faramir said: "Do not scorn pity that is the gift of a gentle heart, Éowyn! But I do not offer you my pity. For you are a lady high and valiant and have yourself won renown that shall not be forgotten; and you are a lady beautiful, I deem, beyond even the words of the Elven-tongue to tell. And I love you. Once I pitied your sorrow. But now, were you sorrowless, without fear or any lack, were you the blissful Queen of Gondor, still I would love you. Éowyn, do you not love me?"

Then the heart of Éowyn changed, or else at last she understood it. And suddenly her winter passed, and the sun shone on her.

"I stand in Minas Anor, the Tower of the Sun," she said; "and behold the Shadow has departed! I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren." And again she looked at Faramir. "No longer do I desire to be a queen,’ she said.

Then Faramir laughed merrily. "That is well," he said; "for I am not a king. Yet I will wed with the White Lady of Rohan, if it be her will. And if she will, then let us cross the River and in happier days let us dwell in fair Ithilien and there make a garden. All things will grow with joy there, if the White Lady comes."

"Then must I leave my own people, man of Gondor?" she said. "And would you have your proud folk say of you: 'There goes a lord who tamed a wild shieldmaiden of the North! Was there no woman of the race of Númenor to choose?”’

"I would," said Faramir. And he took her in his arms and kissed her under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many. And many indeed saw them and the light that shone about them as they came down from the walls and went hand in hand to the Houses of Healing.

And to the Warden of the Houses Faramir said: "Here is the Lady Éowyn of Rohan, and now she is healed."

On a side note, it also annoys me that, in the movies, Faramir is so tempted by the ring that he takes Frodo and Sam all the way to Osgiliath. In the books, he is the only man (and may be the only character besides Tom Bombadil) who is not tempted by the ring even remotely. Once he discovers what Frodo carries, he tells him that he would never touch the ring, not even if it was lying on the side of the road.

[–] tabbyzee60 8 years ago

This bothered me too!! I read the books before I saw the movies and I was really looking forward to the scene then this happened.

[–] ellanegri 8 years ago

I do like the brief scene that they put in the extended edition, especially because they keep in my favorite line of his: "I do not believe that this darkness shall endure." But I wish it had been much longer; David Wenham was a great Faramir and they underutilized him.

[–] Harold_of_Whoa 8 years ago

Ellanegri,

It's interesting to compare Faramir's conversation with Frodo and Sam in "Window on the West" about the characteristics of "High Men" of Gondor with "Middle Men" of Rohan in light of Éowyn's driving nature, seemingly valuing honor and glory in battle above all else.

`Of our lore and manners they have learned what they would, and their lords speak our speech at need; yet for the most part they hold by the ways of their own fathers and to their own memories, and they speak among themselves their own North tongue. And we love them: tall men and fair women, valiant both alike, golden-haired, bright-eyed, and strong; they remind us of the youth of Men, as they were in the Elder Days. Indeed it is said by our lore-masters that they have from of old this affinity with us that they are come from those same Three Houses of Men as were the Númenoreans in their beginning not from Hador the Goldenhaired, the Elf-friend, maybe, yet from such of his sons and people as went not over Sea into the West, refusing the call.

'For so we reckon Men in our lore, calling them the High, or Men of the West, which were Númenoreans; and the Middle Peoples, Men of the Twilight, such as are the Rohirrim and their kin that dwell still far in the North; and the Wild, the Men of Darkness.

`Yet now, if the Rohirrim are grown in some ways more like to us, enhanced in arts and gentleness, we too have become more like to them, and can scarce claim any longer the title High. We are become Middle Men, of the Twilight, but with memory of other things. For as the Rohirrim do, we now love war and valour as things good in themselves, both a sport and an end; and though we still hold that a warrior should have more skills and knowledge than only the craft of weapons and slaying, we esteem a warrior, nonetheless, above men of other crafts. Such is the need of our days. So even was my brother, Boromir: a man of prowess, and for that he was accounted the best man in Gondor. And very valiant indeed he was: no heir of Minas Tirith has for long years been so hardy in toil, so onward into battle, or blown a mightier note on the Great Horn.' Faramir sighed and fell silent for a while.

Faramir seems to lament the traits in his own people which are so defining of Éowyn, yet he falls in love with her (and, it should be noted, deeply loved Boromir, exemplar of many of the same traits.)

[–] ellanegri 8 years ago

It is indeed interesting. For my part, I don't think that it is so much Eowyn's
craving for glory and proving herself so much as her strength and courage. Faramir too is a warrior and a Captain, but what sets him apart from Boromir and Eowyn is his empathy. I see Faramir as an admirer of bravery and a desire to fight for country and people, and seeing that attribute in Boromir and Eowyn is attractive to him. He has them himself. But he also sees in Eowyn that, under the surface, she is not one to craves glory in battle; she only thinks that she does because it is her culture, and when she has an actual harrowing experience, she realizes that she doesn't want that anymore. Her bravery and strength is not lessened, but she no longer knows what it is that she wants, and falls into depression. And then she sees in Faramir strength and courage like her own, like all warriors, but he takes delight in beauty and healing and mercy. Sorry, that rambled a bit. That was an interesting comparison, I never noticed the two before. Bottom line of what I'm trying to say is that Faramir doesn't have a problem with valiance, he has a problem with people who place it as the highest virtue and think that it can only be won in battle. But he recognizes that Eowyn does not feel that, in her heart, and he loves her for it.

[–] harvey-cc 8 years ago

Ellanegri says:
Faramir too is a warrior and a Captain, but what sets him apart from Boromir and Eowyn is his empathy.

This I find fascinating. As someone who has not read the books but has watched the extended trilogy a few times, your insight right there seems to be born out, particularly
in a scene from Two Towers. When Faramir first encountered Frodo and Sam and Frodo has stated "Those that claim to oppose the enemy would do well not to hinder us.":

Faramir: [to Frodo] The enemy?
[walks to a dead Haradrim soldier, and turns him over with his foot]
Faramir: His sense of duty was no less than yours, I deem. You wonder what his name is... where he came from. And if he was really evil at heart. What lies or threats led him on this long march from home. If he would not rather have stayed there... n peace. War will make corpses of us all.

This indeed does show Faramir's unique empathy even towards his enemy.
- Currently watch classic Cinema like Gods of Egypt

[–] otter 8 years ago

Frankly, I never found the romance between those two the most convincing thing in the books. Eowyn's instant conversion from warrior's grimness to loving all things that grow is too sudden, people just don't change their outlook that rapidly. Even when something sudden happens like an unexpected (and welcome) declaration of love, not everything else about them changes at once. I mean, under those circumstances a lot of people's first thought would be "Since we're in love, we can find glory on the battlefield together!", rather than suddenly ceasing to value glory on the battlefield in favor of healing and growing.

So I'm okay with PJ cutting that out and just having them exchange flirty glances at the coronation, in fact I predicted it. There just wasn't time to fit their courtship into the movie.

“Seventy-seven courses and a regicide, never a wedding like it!

[–] ellanegri 8 years ago

I can see where you are coming from. I don't like how in the movie, Faramir is treated like a consolation prize for Eowyn, when in reality he is her savior of sorts. Their romance actually takes place over a longer period than it seems, and Eowyn takes a long time to change her view. I think what is meant to be gleaned from that chapter is that Eowyn, despite her great deed and glory on the field of battle, is depressed. It hasn't brought her the satisfaction that she always believed valor in war would. Her culture taught that there is no other way to have glory, but she then meets Faramir who is beloved and respected by many men despite being gentle and merciful. And throughout their healing, she sees that he has hope for a hopeless world, and that a Captain of Gondor can love things that grow more than destruction and peace more than war. And in that she finds fulfillment, a validation of sorts that, if this warrior can be respected with that attitude, she can too. Remember that Faramir never desired battlefield glory, even if he was good enough to get it. And as he speaks to her about all this, her depression fades, and at last she understands her longing. Aragorn might have healed her wounds, but it is Faramir who heals her heart and spirit.

[–] magpie930 8 years ago

I think that's a nice read on it. (sorry it took me so long to find your post and respond).

I just went back to reread that chapter because it's one I enjoy a lot. (it's The Steward and the King for those interested)

I think a few things are happening in that chapter that effects the change in Eowyn. Of course, little of it is developed in the movie - understandably.

1. I think Faramir falls for Eowyn way before Eowyn cares about anything, let alone him. He is persistent in connecting with her when she has little will to live.

2. I think he is a comrade in arms, so to speak... since both want to be in the battle but neither can be. In that matter, he understands her and I think this is the first connection she allows herself to feel with him. Not only do they share their unwanted situation, he tries to make it easier for her. When she wants a room with a window that looks east, he obliges, for example.

3. Faramir presents the concept and belief of hope to Eowyn when she can not conceive it. A vision of light in a dark time. Sam looked up at a dark moment and saw a star which helped him mentally/spiritually step back from his own plight to see beyond that moment and himself. Faramir had a similar experience.

'Then you think that the Darkness is coming?' said Éowyn. 'Darkness Unescapable?' And suddenly she drew close to him.

'No,' said Faramir, looking into her face. '[His foreboding dream] was but a picture in the mind. I do not know what is happening. The reason of my waking mind tells me that great evil has befallen and we stand at the end of days. But my heart says nay; and all my limbs are light, and a hope and joy are come to me that no reason can deny. Éowyn, Éowyn, White Lady of Rohan, in this hour I do not believe that any darkness will endure!' And he stooped and kissed her brow.

For Faramir, Eowyn is his star. She is even mantled in the star cloak of his mother.

4. Eowyn's own mood and desires and ambitions eat away at her. But the Ring and Sauron are eating away at everyone's mood. At the moment quoted above, when he declares there is light in this darkness, miles away the Ring is destroyed.

And so [Faramir and Eowyn] stood on the walls of the City of Gondor, and a great wind rose and blew, and their hair, raven and golden, streamed out mingling in the air. And the Shadow departed, and the Sun was unveiled, and light leaped forth; and the waters of Anduin shone like silver, and in all the houses of the City men sang for the joy that welled up in their hearts from what source they could not tell.

A great eagle flies crying out the tidings.

Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor, for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever, and the Dark Tower is thrown down.

...

And the people sang in all the ways of the City.

I think the process of Eowyn softening her heart, turning from darkness to light, and opening her eyes (to some extent) to the man in front of her (with all the attributes that ellanegri described) is given a little boost at the banishment of the darkness that was Sauron and the Ring. It is (for some of us, anyhow), a thrilling moment in the book. :-)

But still Eowyn is not 100% there. She still rebuts Faramir but Faramir not only persists... he *gets* Eowyn and holds a mirror up to her motivations.

Then Faramir came and sought her, and once more they stood on the walls together; and he said to her: 'Éowyn, why do you tarry here, and do not go to the rejoicing in Cormallen beyond Cair Andros, where your brother awaits you?'

And she said: 'Do you not know?'

But he answered: 'Two reasons there may be, but which is true, I do not know.'

And she said: 'I do not wish to play at riddles. Speak plainer!'

'Then if you will have it so, lady,' he said: 'you do not go, because only your brother called for you, and to look on the Lord Aragorn, Elendil's heir, in his triumph would now bring you no joy. Or because I do not go, and you desire still to be near me. And maybe for both these reasons, and you yourself cannot choose between them. Éowyn, do you not love me, or will you not?'

'I wished to be loved by another,' she answered. 'But I desire no man's pity.'

'That I know,' he said. 'You desired to have the love of the Lord Aragorn. Because he was high and puissant, and you wished to have renown and glory and to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on the earth. And as a great captain may to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable. For so he is, a lord among men, the greatest that now is. But when he gave you only understanding and pity, then you desired to have nothing, unless a brave death in battle. Look at me, Éowyn!'

And Éowyn looked at Faramir long and steadily; and Faramir said: 'Do not scorn pity that is the gift of a gentle heart, Éowyn! But I do not offer you my pity. For you are a lady high and valiant and have yourself won renown that shall not be forgotten; and you are a lady beautiful, I deem, beyond even the words of the Elven-tongue to tell. And I love you. Once I pitied your sorrow. But now, were you sorrowless, without fear or any lack, were you the blissful Queen of Gondor, still I would love you. Éowyn, do you not love me?'

Then the heart of Éowyn changed, or else at last she understood it. And suddenly her winter passed, and the sun shone on her.

I stand in Minas Anor, the Tower of the Sun, she said; and behold the Shadow has departed! I will be a shieldmaiden no longer, nor vie with the great Riders, nor take joy only in the songs of slaying. I will be a healer, and love all things that grow and are not barren.' And again she looked at Faramir. 'No longer do I desire to be a queen,' she said.

Then Faramir laughed merrily. 'That is well,' he said; 'for I am not a king. Yet I will wed with the White Lady of Rohan, if it be her will. And if she will, then let us cross the River and in happier days let us dwell in fair Ithilien and there make a garden. All things will grow with joy there, if the White Lady comes.'

Tolkien always allows for multiple motivations or explanations. "Then the heart of Éowyn changed, or else at last she understood it."

I choose to think she understood it at last. Her ambitions were driven by what she knew then. Faramir lets her see other ways, other options, other paths. And, her heart that has slowly been opening, accepts a new understanding of what her life can be. What might make her happy... bring her joy and peace.

And Faramir took her in his arms and kissed her under the sunlit sky, and he cared not that they stood high upon the walls in the sight of many. And many indeed saw them and the light that shone about them as they came down from the walls and went hand in hand to the Houses of Healing.

And to the Warden of the Houses Faramir said: 'Here is the Lady Éowyn of Rohan, and now she is healed.'

I think when things seem unclear or muddled in the movie, it can help to revisit the book. And this is, perhaps, one case where that is so. Thus... the generous quoting from Tolkien's words. :-)

[–] afredfan 8 years ago

Agreed. When a not minor supporting character has a major change of heart, it needs to be shown. Eowyn loved Aragorn; then Eowyn loves Faramir. I would have prefered to just not even have shown her with Faramir at all.

This series cried out for spin offs, but I am glad none have been attempted, the monstrosity that is the Bilbo trilogy was bad enough.

The Lord of the Rings is one of the few series in which a reader of the books is rewarded with many hints from the books, but hints only, since much of the book can never be interpreted through film. Heck, each movie could have spent 30 minutes of background on each main character, culture, history, and language for a deeper relationship with the material. Just not what film was designed to do.

Peter Jackson did exactly what had to be done to present the essence within the constraints of the film market. Genius. The best trilogy of all time by far.

[–] mcigloo 8 years ago

I was also looking forward to seeing the book version of Faramir's ability to resist the ring pretty much entirely and was a little disappointed when in the movie he, at first, was pretty much hell bent on taking the ring to his father.

When listening to the directors commentary on the extended version of ROTK Peter, Fran, & Phillipa addressed this exact point. Their opinion was that having Faramir completely resist the ring with pretty much no problem entirely took away the rings power. That if this random dude has no problem resisting the ring then why is it scary at all...

At least they acknowledge it and seem to have put some thought into why they changed it.

[–] ellanegri 8 years ago

Yeah, I can understand for cinematic purposes why they did it. For people who hadn't read the book, Faramir was yet ANOTHER new character and it would have seemed strange that he could resist the ring when even Aragorn and Gandalf were tempted, especially since no explanation is offered other than the strength of his morals and character. But a part of me still wishes that they had kept it in. It elevates him from a random dude and side character to a unique part of the story and a beautiful one at that.

[–] magpie930 8 years ago

a worthy thread to bump up in the final days.

[–] ellanegri 8 years ago

It's a shame. You all were a pleasure to talk to.

[–] BarbaraCT (11) 7 years ago

I just discovered this thread because I joined this board only a short while ago - and I just have to say how much I enjoyed reading your interesting and thoughtful posts, ellanegri and everyone who replied. It is wonderful to still have a place to exchange our views on LOTR and other movies. The interaction between Eowyn and Faramir has always been one of my favourite parts in the books, and Eowyn has always been a special character to me, in the book as well as in the movie.

[–] SpaceAce2001 (387) 6 years ago

The movie does this constantly, it begins a subplot that is fully fleshed out in the book but then they only half ass it so it ends up making no sense at all.

[–] Otter (24464) 6 years ago

The reduction or dismissal of subplots was inevitable, given the time constraints of filmmaking.

But I do agree that the editing of RotK could have been better done, it's my least favorite of the trilogy.

[–] SpaceAce2001 (387) 6 years ago

Yeah of course they are going to have to simplify some things in a movie adaptation but here’s an idea: if they don’t have time to fully develop faramir and eowyns romance just don’t put it in the movie at all. Or cut out Arwyns stupid story which is literally one sentence out of the book.

[–] Otter (24464) 6 years ago

The thing about screenplays is, if you give the story a happy ending, then you have to find a way to give each character a happy ending. Yes, Aragorn, Eowyn, and Faramir have not only done their bit to defeat Sauron, they've each had tremendous personal difficulties, which are not resolved by the defeat of Sauron.

Eowyn has been living a life of sexual harassment, second-class citizenship, loneliness, and family dysfunction, it's got to the point where she's willing to throw her life away. Faramir has been treated like dirt from his father, his life has been hanging by a thread, and when he wakes up his family has lost its power. Aragorn has lived a life of danger, loneliness, and sexual frustration, and if he'd become king with no high-ranking girlfriend in place he'd be facing an arranged marriage (probably to Eowyn).

So while Faramir and Eowyn has never been my favorite part of the story, the fact is that each one of them does need some personal happiness at the end for the reader to walk away satisfied - Faramir needs a consolation prize after losing the rule of Gondor, and Eowyn needs something in her life other than the glory of battle. Match them up and problems solved, and Gondor and Rohan are brought closer together! As for Aragorn and Arwen, well, that was apparently a very personal story for Tolkien, even if he did write it so clumsily that most of their romance is in the appendicies (apparently Aragorn and Eowyn were originally together). But in the book at least, there's something magical about Aragorn becoming king and getting the most wonderful woman in the world as his wife. Yeah, it's fairy-tale cheesy, but sometimes fairy-tale stuff works in Fantasy.