I saw this film on DVD last night and I enjoyed it very much. I love films that are aware that the audience *does* have a brain in its collective head, if you know what I mean. I feel that it's nit-picking to express a gripe against such a fine piece of work as 'The Limey' but here goes. When Wilson goes to see Luiz Guisman's character, near the start of the film, one of Wilson's first lines is: "You wrote me...". Now, this is American English, not English as would've been spoken by an Englishman. An English bloke would've said: "You wrote *to* me..." not "You wrote me...". This isn't a criticism against the film makers at all. I think that the writer is American as, of course, is the director and it was filmed in the USA too. But I wondered why a Brit like Terrence Stamp didn't pick up on this and say to them that it would be better if he said: "You wrote to me..." rather than "You wrote me..."? Stamp's home page says that he spent a very long time in India. Maybe he's stayed away from England so long he's lost a little of his ear for the syntax? Having said that, I'm pretty sure that he still lives in England. Maybe he was just too shy to make mention of any changes that might be appropriate to his dialogue? This might seem like hair-splitting to US readers but, believe me, no British person would say: "You wrote me...".
Dang, Brothers--you 2 are sharp. Or are there more than 2 brothers Carruthers? Actually--English in India is more English than in London. They work hard to sound British. The previous rulers are still the yardstick to measure breeding by. Perhaps the flub to do w/Wilson's lack of sophistication. He's been a career criminal & I don't mean Professor Moriarty. I dunno. Rog
I'm glad that somebody else out there was annoyed about this too. Stamp's performance in the film is solid but the use of language is poor. The rhyming slang seemed to be crowbar-ed into the script in places. Stamp's painstaking explanation of the slang to the american characters is a little cringeworthy. Stamp's cockney style accent is not quite there either. Too much time away from the gaff son.
I don't know but, for me and the people around my office, it would only be: "You wrote to me about my daughter" not "You wrote me about my daughter". I think that, for some, there might be a case of: "You wrote'a me (with the "to", pronounced as "'a", buried at the back of the throat) about my daughter" but "You wrote me..." just sounds wrong. Indeed, it's really hard to say it that way as one has to stop oneself saying "to" - it takes effort to say "You wrote me...". Indeed, when I first typed out "You wrote me...", in this posting, I made a typo and typed "You wrote to me" by mistake. The thing is that "You wrote me..." is perfect American English but it sounds wrong and is even hard to say for English people. Anyone who's reading this, see if you can prompt your mates (who are native English speakers in the UK) to say the sentence. I'm no expert but I think people will only want/be able to say: "You wrote to me about my daughter..." or "You wrote'a me about my daughter".
(I know this isn't too important but I'm bored s _ _ tless at work and I've got to do something until 5.30!).
Oh, and as for films in which characters explain Cockney slang, could that stopped right now!? Either do it through subtitles or just allow it to be understood through context. If people use words that mean that they have to stop and explain their meaning, they tend to stop using those words very quickly. Or just don't use the slang.
I lived in London for many years and You Wrote me abart my Dorter would be natural for Stamp's Character considering his age and how long he had spent banged up in Wadsworth nick or pentonville
Oh well; we'll have to agree to disagree about "You wrote me about my daughter..." as I don't buy it for a second. But I can be a stubborn wanker(1) so what do I know? A saw a little bit of that so-awful-it's-great film "Meteor" the other day. At one point, Sean Connery says to Natalie Wood something like: "Do you want to go eat?". And I - slapping my forehead in exasperation! - said to the TV, "Do you want to go and eat! Go *and* eat!". I know; Connery was playing an American-based scientist in the film but he was supposed to play an Irish-American in "The Untouchables" and - Oscar notwithstanding - we know what happened there(2). As for the cockney slang question, there seems to be different standards in film for different forms of slang. Essentially, American slang is (thankfully) left for non-American audiences to decipher by themselves. While non-American slang has to be broken down and spoonfed to US audiences. I know people can find slang fascinating and might well want to know what it means but isn't slang used as a verbal short cut? If a character has to then stop and explain it to another character (and, by extension, the audience) then that short cut turns into the scenic route. I haven't seen that new film "Brick" but, as I understand it, that uses a great deal of hard-boiled, 50s noir slang and puts its faith in the audience to do the work and decipher the meaning. "Miller's Crossing" is another film that comes to mind; one that has a similarly high regard for its audience. Film makers: Use the slang and allow the audience to find its own way or just don't use the slang.
1. Similar to 'jerk off' but is deemed to be much more rude in a British context than 'jerk off' is in its American context(3). 2. Connery received an Oscar even though his accent wasn't anywhere near to his character's supposed background(3).
3. It's annoying when you get explanations for things you either know or could find out by using your own intellect, isn't it?
Edit: I've just read a feature, written by the superb Joe Queenan, in which he mentioned "Brick" and "Miller's Crossing" as two examples of slang in cinema. So, I hadn't read it before I mentioned the same two films, in the same context, in this posting. His feature was published 10 days before I wrote the above.
I saw Meteor a long time ago and you are right, but strangely I diddnt notice Connery's accent in untochables - I must have got used to it, like the smell of my house or airline musak - always there and always the same. Your suggestion to filmmakers was cetainly followed in Kes(1969)-The producers had to put subtitles on it in the US! I live very near York, England now. Which country are you from? I would guess england am I right or am I right?
I live in South-West England. It's great here but lucky you for living in a beautiful place like York. That's so right about Connery in "The Untouchables". Some actors just have so much status that they become, er, untouchable (Michael Caine in "The Cider House Rules" anybody?). Connery got away with it (I really like both the film and his performance in "The Untouchables") but another, lesser actor would've been roasted alive for being so loose with his accent. You're right about Kes and I think that many other Ken Loach films were released with subtitles too. I think 'Trainspotting' might have had some subtitles in some scenes, in the US, but I might be wrong on that.
Considering it was one of his first lines of dialogue it really started the character off limping, especially since the vernacular was made such a big deal of. Watching it with some friends here in London we all noticed it.
And I agree, I think the cockney rhyming slang (and his explanation of it at every opportunity) was more than a bit lame. Seemed more like an American fascination with English speech rather than an effort at authenticity.
And are we really that incomprehensible to you guys in the USA?
All in all though, a decent little flick.
* I can only express puzzlement, which borders on alarm. *
Totally agree about "wrote me/wrote to me". I haven't even seen the film but I have never heard a single british person EVER use the phrase "i wrote you", (I like in Bristol if it matters).
Now if they're saying "i wrote you a letter", then thats fine, (because you don't need the too because you're describing the object, not the action), but never just "i wrote you", and I agree that Stamp, as a BRit, would have had to be reading directly from the script. Now given how great Soderbergh is, it does seem a bit strange.
Still, I haven't seen the film, so probably shouldn't comment. Have it on my 'to buy' list now tho
Do British people ever say: "you emailed me?" or "you cabled me?" or "you wired me?" or "you telephoned/phoned/called me?" At least on this side of the pond, these nouns(used as verbs collaquially), connatate the entire: You wrote an email to me, you placed a telephone call to me etc. I don't believe any of the former sayings are proper english over here in the states, but that is how we say it for the most part.
'You wrote me', is a shade different than, 'you wrote a letter to me'. (in which case the to is needed wherever you live). The wrote, in 'you wrote me' needs no preposition, in the same way you kicked me does not. You did something to me. The verb includes the to, so to speak. Seems somewhere along the line, over here at least, these verbiased nouns became more specific, and lost the need for prepositions. Not sure why.
Perhaps originally the verb 'to write' was born from the noun writ. Probably was vice versa, but your legal system was certainly around long before most people were literate. I dunno, I'm just talking out of my a** and am more curious than anything else.
We do say "you emailed me" or "you phoned me" a lot more frequently than "you wrote an email to me", but to me saying "you wrote me" sounds very unnatural - not entirely sure why. If someone said that I'd firstly assume they meant they'd literally written the word "me", I suppose that's why it differs from the email/phone/kicked examples, who knows.
One thing though, it's strange how Americans always refer to us as British. I'd never describe myself as British or as having come from Britain (and never from 'Great Britain'). I'd describe myself as English and living in England, or living in the UK. It's always immediately obvious that a forum poster is American if they use the word Britain or British.
* If you're going to race with the devil, you'd better be fast as hell! *
But it is 100% correct for anyone to call English people 'British', of course. I'd actually argue the other way and say that some Americans (I know this is a huge generalisation) would be more likely to say 'English' than 'British'. However, British people have got nothing to complain about; Brits aren't New Zealanders that are called 'Australians' or Canadians labelled as 'Americans'. The English/British thing is just a matter of perception. New Zealand/Australia or Canada/USA is just plain incorrect.
True, it's perfectly correct to say British - in my experience it's a term usually used by Americans though. Good point about New Sealanders and Canadians, they get a rough deal.
* If you're going to race with the devil, you'd better be fast as hell! *
Some bloke moved into my old house a few months ago. He had *that* accent and I was chatting away about cricket (I'd dived in and assumed that he was from Australia). Eventually he said: "...I wouldn't know. I'm from New Zealand". D'OH!!!
As an Englishman, the only time "you wrote me" would seem correct is when "you wrote the word 'me'" as mentioned above AND when talking to a writer (novelist/playwright) about how you were represented in their work, as in:
"You wrote me as a complete fool"
Incidentally it's not incorrect to describe a Canadian as an American, just as it is not incorrect to describe me as a European.
Regarding Ozzies/Kiwis, they hate it when you get it wrong but their accents can be very close (depending on what part of Australia/New Zealand they are from), to the extent that I have heard an Ozzie ask a kiwi if he was Australian although, to be fair, the Kiwi in question had spent a long time abroad.
Would it have something to do with the fact that being who he is (Limey) he could skip some of the grammar? There's all this slang and he needs to stick to "to me"? English is not my native language so this is an actual question.
rHBa says: As an Englishman, the only time "you wrote me" would seem correct is when "you wrote the word 'me'" as mentioned above AND when talking to a writer (novelist/playwright) about how you were represented in their work, as in:
"You wrote me as a complete fool"
Not so. it is also perfectly common in sentences such as these:
"You wrote me a letter, didn't you?." "I wrote him a message. " "She wrote him a note." Etc.
It's the form "You wrote me..." without a second object that seems not to occur naturally in British English.
<<However, British people have got nothing to complain about; Brits aren't New Zealanders that are called 'Australians' or Canadians labelled as 'Americans'. The English/British thing is just a matter of perception. New Zealand/Australia or Canada/USA is just plain incorrect. >>
Why DO Europeans (and I say Europeans because I've heard Germans, French, Irish etc. do this) lump Canadians in with Americans and describe us all as Americans? I've also heard that you guys lump New Zealanders in with Australians and everyone is an Aussie. It's most annoying. Aren't you all supposed to be better at geography than we are? My Canadian spouse doesn't appreciate it one bit.
I remember one British reporter on the CBC saying something along the lines of "it's because you all share the same dirt." Double D'oh!
<<However, British people have got nothing to complain about; Brits aren't New Zealanders that are called 'Australians' or Canadians labelled as 'Americans'. The English/British thing is just a matter of perception. New Zealand/Australia or Canada/USA is just plain incorrect. >>
Why DO Europeans (and I say Europeans because I've heard Germans, French, Irish etc. do this) lump Canadians in with Americans and describe us all as Americans? I've also heard that you guys lump New Zealanders in with Australians and everyone is an Aussie. It's most annoying. Aren't you all supposed to be better at geography than we are? My Canadian spouse doesn't appreciate it one bit.
Erm, that was my point and that is my point - that one shouldn't confuse Australians with New Zealanders or confuse Canadians with Americans. Try reading it again...slowly. As I think I said, the accent sounds similar to our untrained ears but it's not meant as a personal slight, obviously. As for geography, it's incorrect to call Canadians 'Americans' but, as Canada and the USA make up the continent of North America, it's ironically and technically correct to call Canadians 'North Americans',isn't it? Do please correct me if I'm wrong. Additionally, wouldn't it also be technically correct to call people - from both Australia AND New Zealand - 'Australasians'? Again, do correct me if I'm wrong.
<<Er, swish! (???) >>
Went that far over your head, eh dude?
No, it's just that my original retort was quick and witty but yours was a floundering failure. My questioning tone was one of admiration that you indeed had enough self opinion to leave your name on such a point-and-laugh posting. Most others would've slapped their foreheads, sighed an "oh dear" and then pressed delete but you didn't. So hats off to you for your hard-as-stone self confidence. I, for one, salute you.
My limited understanding is that ''English' means from England (red cross on a white standard), while 'British' encompasses Wales and Scotland (Union Jack?). Essentially English to non-British eyes. (sorry to you Welsh and Scotch patriots). And United Kingdom means the above mentioned countries, along with the British Commonwealth ( ie just Northern Ireland as far as I know), but used to stretch the globe. (India, China, South Africa etc, allong with Canada, the US, Australia). Heck, all of us having this conversation in English have a common denominator....
"Heck, all of us having this conversation in English have a common denominator.... ".
You're right. It all doesn't mean a damn. I think that we're all just bored out of our minds at work and these conversations help eat into the hours until we can leave our workplaces like a bullet from a gun. The thing is, if you were to do a survey of a wide number of English people, my guess is that some would call their nationality "English" (when the correct answer's 'British') and many wouldn't know the countries that make up 'Great Britain' (England, Scotland and Wales) or that the United Kingdom ('Britain') is made up of Great Britain plus Northern Ireland. It's all nonsense anyway. It's a round world, you know?
It's all geography - when I tell someone where my ancestors are from, I break it down as Irish, British, and Scot (besides a few others). I don't just say Great Britain.
If Bush were Pinocchio we'd have enough timber to rebuild the Gulf
"Why DO Europeans (and I say Europeans because I've heard Germans, French, Irish etc. do this) lump Canadians in with Americans and describe us all as Americans?"
Having just got back from Canada I can attest to the fact that Canadians are friendly, witty, courteous, and not in the least bit brash - so I would never "lump" them in with "Americans"
Getting back to the topic, 'wrote me' is definitely an American idiom and it is wrong to put it into the mouth of an English character, and particularly strange when there is so much emphasis on his different speech.
I think the only reason that most English would lump together "Americans" with Canadians or Australians with New Zealanders is because we find it hard to tell the accents apart, not because of a misunderstanding of geography.
By the way, I don't include Cherie Blair in that statement, she's just a dumb b**ch:
I really enjoyed the movie, but also had the same jarring experience hearing Stamp say "you wrote me". How could I believe in a picture when the main character - played as a cockney - comes out with such a blatant americanism in the first few minutes? However, on the third or fourth viewing I began to think it was deliberate - Stamp isn't uttering an americanism, he's carrying out the standard practise of any English person first meeting a foreigner (and the Mexican American who is talking to looks very 'un-english') - Stamp talks in short monosyllables as if talking to a child; so the normal sentence construct "You wrote to me?" becomes a simple statement "You [pause] wrote [pause] me [pause]" and then Stamp looks to see if the sentence has been understood by the foreigner.
Stamp talks in short monosyllables as if talking to a child; so the normal sentence construct "You wrote to me?" becomes a simple statement "You [pause] wrote [pause] me [pause]" and then Stamp looks to see if the sentence has been understood by the foreigner.
I cant accept that, Stamp repeats this american usage later on during a conversation, its simply because the script was written by an american, enough said, it sounded awkward and unnatural.
Stamp's painstaking explanation of the slang to the american characters is a little cringeworthy. Stamp's cockney style accent is not quite there either. Too much time away from the gaff son.
Couldnt agree more, especially the last bit.
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Everything I can say about the geography issue looks to have already been said.
As for the original issue of "wrote (to) me" I, being american, didn't notice as I'm sure the screenwriters, being american, didn't either. In the case of Terence Stamp going along with saying it, it could possibly be that he is just used to saying lines as written in the script without questioning it. Unless it was a really huge major flaw like saying "when the turkish nuked hiroshima in 1945" he probably felt an issue like using the word "to" or not wasn't worth getting in an argument with the filmmakers. Of course, the american filmmakers having not had this issue brought to their attention went ignorant of the need to correct it.
I remember liking the movie, but it was annoying that he continously had to explain the lingo as if everyone he met was a complete idiot. But then he was always talking to americans. (thought you might like that)
Of course, it could be, given that he always had to explain his lingo to every single person he met, that he was attempting to speak some of the american lingo. When you go abroad, do you ever try to say things like the natives?
And there was some subtitles in the movie Trainspotting here. Even the book had a full glossary of words used.
Off topic: If you are an american in england and looking to start a fight, go into a pub (that's bar for some of you) in the late hours and yell "Brett Favre is the greatest footballer to play the game!" If you're english in america, do this in reverse substituting your favorite footballer (that's soccer for some of you) for Brett Favre. On second thought, no one will probably have any idea what you're talking about and ignore you instead.
Not being American I can point out that worldwide television stations have access to american Tv/movies. Thus american words/mannerisms can be picked up.
Why is that so hard figure out ?
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This whole thread is a joke, right? To me a "goof" is this. How did the killer in The Lovely Bones get the safe from the basement into his vehicle in the short period of time it took the girl to go home and cause the police to be called, when it then took him and another person ROLLING it along the ground to get it into the land fill? An extra word? Really? Doesn't anyone know someone born and raised in any country that says things a little weird at times? Maybe it is odd for someone to use that wording, but we don't have spell and grammar checkers in our heads 24x7 for every word that comes out of our mouths. You are criticizing a script because it IS written and reviewed etc., but while you are watching a movie, you are supposed to be seeing it as a real life situation without review and scrutiny.
You know what I find to be a weird series of words? "I feel that it's nit-picking to express a gripe against such a fine piece of work as 'The Limey' but here goes."
I agree with the OP, "it's nitpicking to express a gripe about such a fine piece of work as "The Limey."" The vitriol expressed by many posters on this thread is mind-boggling. I don't have a clue what any of the claptrap has to with the movie.
"England and America are two countries separated by the same language."
George Bernard Shaw, 1941
(Yeah, I know Shaw was Irish, but he lived most of his life in England and that was the vernacular he employed in his wonderful plays.)