Multiple use of character actors - The King of Queens (1998) Discussion

[–] houstonhacker 8 years ago

I love the Mook.

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[–] jezfernandez 8 years ago

He's a running gag I quite like too!

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

As a "running gag", I guess he's OK. OK, at best.

As an actor, he's just horrible. I cringe when I see him.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

(1) This show did it quite a bit. More than I usually see in other shows or sit-coms.

(2) This show always had a very strong element of nepotism. So, your comments and observations can be explained by said nepotism. This happened inordinately in this particular TV show.

(3) I never thought that they really tried to "disguise" Mookie Barker.

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[–] PaulWard27 8 years ago

I can't stand Mookie Barker at all.

I didn't really have an issue with them using Meara randomly once and then bringing her back in a recurring role. It does seem somewhat odd though that the random one off episode she appeared in also featured Veronica, in the only episode she was played by Grace Zabriskie.

It may seem weird now in hindsight, especially as many of us may 'binge watch' episodes at a time. But I imagine when it aired at the time, not many would have remembered that early appearance by Meara once she first appeared as Veronica.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

I agree with all that you said.

(1) I cannot stand Mookie Barker. I can't believe some people actually like him. Wow.

(2) The whole Grace Zabriskie situation was very bizarre. They used her as Spence's mom only in that one episode. The actress was never to be seen again. And the role was then given to Anne Meara, who (coincidentally) appeared as a one-time guest in the very same episode.

I thought that Grace Zabriskie did a horrible job in that role. I am not sure if the flaw was in the way the character was written (by the writers) or in the way that the character was performed (by the actress). But, the whole thing was one big failure. And those scenes of that episode (where Spence's mom and the gang of guys are hanging out in Spence's living room) were completely un-funny. I always avoid that episode.

I think that -- in hindsight -- someone (the producer? the casting director?) said "Wow, that went over like a lead balloon. Totally not funny at all. We need to re-cast this role!" And Meara was right there.

Or -- more likely -- Meara happened to be there. And said to someone "Geez, this is terrible. I bet that I could do a better job with this role!" And the rest was history.

Again, mind you, the character was written very differently after the very first appearance.

So, the new combination (of adding Meara and better writing) led to a successful character.

(3) I agree that watching TV series is a different phenomenon today than it was 10-15 years ago. Way back then, as you mentioned, there was no such thing as "binge watching". And the "binge watching" that we have today does indeed shape the way in which we watch (and analyze) TV series.

Also, don't forget: way back when, we did not even have videos (VHS), DVD's, or DVR, etc. So, you simply watched the show that one time that it aired (if you were home that night). And then, you never saw the episode again until it was summer time, which was reserved for re-runs. So, it was a totally different experience (in the past) as to how we watched the episodes of a TV series.

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[–] jezfernandez 8 years ago

I agree the Zabriskie Veronica didn't work, though that's probably more about the writing than her performance. Meara was a totally different Veronica (and thankfully relatively sparse in appearance). I always thought it worked better when she was described rather than shown. Like when Spence is getting in Doug's car and yells, "No mom, I don't need my hood on. I don't need it on! Oh...fine, I'll put it on!" Then he gets in the car and says, "I'll take it off when we're round the block."

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[–] PaulWard27 8 years ago

It's a pity that Zabriskie was so poor as Veronica. I agree, those scenes are pretty bad and I don't enjoy them at all.

Yet the rest of the episode is quite good, I enjoyed the scenes between Arthur and Meara's character, where they both claim to be in a loveless marriage and plan a sordid affair but then lose interest when they both admitted they were actually single.

I also quite like the scenes with Carrie and Tito at the restaurant where she is meant to be having dinner with Doug, but he is of course stuck with Veronica.

So it's a shame those Zabriskie scenes tarnish the episode as a whole.

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[–] houstonhacker 8 years ago

"Tito Retreato!"

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Tito (the actor, not the character) showed up several times, also.

One example: he was the loud-mouthed kid in the movie theater who was saving 20 seats for his friends. So, Doug and Carrie had to sit in the very first row of the theater.

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[–] PaulWard27 8 years ago

Actually, I think that was someone else. You are right, the Tito actor did play a kid in the cinema, but I think he was just annoyingly loud.

The seat saving incident occurred in the episode Furious Gorge, which I just watched. This is after Doug has been going to the abusive husbands class instead of the over eaters and when caught by Carrie, he makes her attend anger management classes.

Carrie would usually 'kick some ass' if anyone tried to save 20 seats, but because of the anger classes, she is calm and they settle for the front row seats. However after a while, she makes a deal with Doug (who is eating healthy rice cakes) that he can eat all her candy if she can kick some ass and get the seats further back that this guy was saving.

I'm not sure which episode the Tito kid was in, but I am sure that is a different cinema scene.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Yeah, there was a theater scene where the Tito actor was loud and obnoxious. I can picture it in my head. He was screaming across the theater to his friends. And he was getting on Carrie's last nerve.

Maybe I was confusing that scene with the scene where some random dude tries to save 20 seats and, thus, prevents Doug and Carrie from getting any decent seat.

That must be the case. As I think about it, in the "Tito" actor theater scene, Doug and Carrie did get decent seats. They just happened to be near the Tito guy. I remember Carrie saying to Doug, who selected the seats: "And you couldn't spot trouble with this one here?". She said this as she pointed to the Tito actor.

By the way, "Furious Gorge" is one of my favorite episodes. Probably in the Top Three.

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[–] houstonhacker 8 years ago

The Tito actor also played the employee at the drug store when Doug asked if they sold "Boy Bite Be Gone".

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

This is the actor, by the way: Shaun Weiss.

From that first photo, it looks like he lost a lot of weight. It doesn't even seem like it's the same guy.

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[–] DanaShelbyChancey 8 years ago

Props also to the late Pamela Gordon, who played in 2 episodes.

The one where Doug & Carrie had to hunt for Arthur in bars on the docks, the good-time girl he was dancing with, Enid.

And also, Arthur's dinner date who coughed a lot, who was about to be pushed out the door by Arthur, until he found out she had boinked Frank Sinatra.

Gee Woodle, Space Kadoodle!

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

She passed away?

Wow.

She was great!

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Arthur said to her: "So, have you had tuberculosis long?"

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[–] DanaShelbyChancey 8 years ago

Yes, Pamela Gordon died in 2003, while KOQ was still in production.

Gee Woodle, Space Kadoodle!

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Sad to hear. She was great.

Also, in that scene, Arthur asked Doug to set the curtains on fire, so as to create a distraction. To get rid of his horrible date.

Ha ha!

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[–] DanaShelbyChancey 8 years ago

Yes, lol, in that episode Carrie refers to Judy, the woman who did Sinatra, as "a rough stretch of highway"

A phrase I have used since in real life, to describe a difficult person.

Gee Woodle, Space Kadoodle!

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Yes, I distinctly remember Carrie saying that.

I thought the phrase meant: "Wow, that lady has been around the block a few times!", no?

In other words, she was a loose floozy who has bedded her share of men.

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[–] DanaShelbyChancey 8 years ago

I just take it to mean, a person who is a chore to socialize with, but it could be taken any way.

Carrie herself used to get around, back in the day, so I don't think she would think anything different about a woman who did, also.

Gee Woodle, Space Kadoodle!

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Yes. "A rough stretch of highway" ...

Your version means the section of a highway that is difficult to travel on.

My version means the section of a highway that has been highly traveled.

They both make sense.

Arthur's date was named Judy. But, when Carrie was commenting about Judy, Carrie had only met Judy for about 2 or 3 seconds. I believe Doug and Carrie walked in the front door. Arthur and Judy were seated at the dining room table. Carrie bolted immediately upstairs. And Doug lingered for a brief moment or so, in order for Arthur to ask Doug if he would light the curtains on fire.

So, Carrie really didn't get to know Judy or her personality at all. There were no indications to Carrie that Judy was difficult to socialize with. If anything, Carrie would think that -- of the dating pair -- Arthur was really the one who would be difficult to socialize with.

Thus, I thought that Carrie was commenting on Judy's appearance, that she looked "used and worn". (Which -- with make-up, she did.) And, with that, the connotations of Judy's promiscuity.

Side note: The actress playing Judy, Pamela Gordon, was only 66 when she died in 2003. Ironically, she died of cancer of the esophagus.

Link: http://articles.latimes.com/2003/sep/24/local/me-gordon24.

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[–] jezfernandez 8 years ago

I loved that line!

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

I agree. The episode, on the whole, is good. (Good. Not great.) If you minus the Zabriskie debacle, when she is drunk and entertaining all the guys in the living room.

As stated above, the failure was more in the writing of the character than in the acting of the role.

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[–] jezfernandez 8 years ago

When Carrie tells "Albert" to stop staring at her chest - that's a tall order, considering what she's wearing!

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[–] davetruman68 8 years ago

I thought it was tough to judge Grace's performance as Spence's mother. It wasn't bad, but I couldn't give it an awarding winning effort either. Grace did such a good job as Susan's mother on "Seinfeld", I was looking forward to more performances from her. I don't know why they recast the part, unless she had other offers.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Those scenes with Grace Zabriskie literally make me cringe. Just awful.

However, I put 99% of the blame on the writing, not the acting.

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[–] pop-actor 8 years ago

I notice they recycle a lot secondary or guest actors from Seinfeld - Video Clerk\Spence - Frank\Artur - Tim Watley\Neighbor - MrsRoss\Spence Mother - FrankMerman\The guy supermark - Fred\Strike One employee...and so many more...

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Spence (Patton Oswalt) played in a Seinfeld episode?

I never knew that.

I thought that Kelly (Merrin Dungey) played a bookstore clerk in the Seinfeld episode where George brings a book to the bathroom to read. And then the book gets scanned and "beeps", indicating that he must purchase it.

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[–] davetruman68 8 years ago

Seinfeld producers had a knack for picking out guest stars that delivered memorable performances or at least got them noticed by other TV shows for work later on.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Seinfeld producers had a knack for picking out guest stars that delivered memorable performances or at least got them noticed by other TV shows for work later on.

That may be true. I never really took notice.

I think the bigger "factor" is that of the the stand-up comedy circuit and its network.

Obviously, Jerry Seinfeld and Kevin James (not to mention, Ray Romano) are all part of the stand-up comedy circuit.

I imagine that it's a "small" and "closed" network, where they all sort of know each other.

Patton Oswalt (Spence) is a stand-up comedian. I am pretty sure that Gary Valentine (Danny) is, also; and Nicole Sullivan (Holly), too.

I think that's the main connection between the Seinfeld casting for talent and The King of Queens casting for talent.

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[–] pop-actor 8 years ago

Spence (Patton Oswalt) played in a Seinfeld episode?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP4Ahq0F0M4

There U go my friend...

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

Thanks.

Wow, "Spence" (Patton Oswalt) looks so young!

I remember seeing that clip years ago -- when it first aired. I probably have not seen it since.

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[–] ewd76-944-910685 8 years ago

I Love Lucy did it a lot.

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[–] JosephASpadaro 8 years ago

I Love Lucy did it a lot.

True.

But, that was a different era. And, at that time, television viewing was altogether different.

In that day and age, people would watch an episode once and then, essentially, never see it again.

Perhaps they might see it once more in a summer re-run season or such.

But, for the most part, once an episode aired and was viewed once (in its original airing), it then became "ancient history" (never to be seen again or even considered again).

In that day, they did not have VCR's, DVD's, videotape, TiVo, DVR, streaming, NetFlix, You Tube, etc. Nor did they have re-runs and episodes in syndication. As we have today.

So, today, an episode can be viewed, paused, and rewound multiple times, thereby becoming heavily scrutinized. So, we now "notice" when an actor is used in multiple roles throughout the series.

In the old days, this was not possible.

You would watch an episode. And then never see it again. So, it was "out of sight and out of mind".

You would barely notice some side character actor. Certainly, you would not recognize him or remember him if he appeared later on in a different episode in the same series, separated by many weeks or months of airing.

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[–] liscarkat (18410) 7 months ago

It's never been unusual for tv shows to use character actors over and over in different roles. For example, Denver Pyle and Strother Martin appeared in fourteen and eleven episodes, respectively, of "Gunsmoke", all as different characters, and sometimes more than once during a single season.

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