MovieChat Forums > Angel (1999) Discussion > Angel/Buffy rewatch; Benediction

Angel/Buffy rewatch; Benediction


BENEDICTION

The Good; The return of Justine but this ep will always be remembered for the incredible scenes between Angel and Holtz. They strike you as a pair of weary emotional boxers slugging it out to the last. I especially like the moment where Angel rages at Holtz for stealing his son and Holtz points out that he kept Angel's son alive whilst Angel(us) killed his.

The Bad; Angel just leaves a set of vamps lying on the floor of the club.

Best line: Justine; "How did you survive?" Holtz; "My hatred kept us alive" HOOOOoooooooooo! also like; Fred; "He's survived an unspeakable hell dimension. Who hasn't? It doesn't mean you can leave him on the streets of LA"

Jeez, how did they get away with that? Holtz forcing Justine to stab him with the icepick

Apocalypses: 5

Angel Clichés In disguise; 8

DB get's his shirt off; 12

Cordy's tatt; 10

Cheap Angel; 9

Fang Gang in bondage: Cordy: 5 Angel: 11 Wes: 6 Gunn; 4 Lorne; 3 Fred; 2

Fang gang knocked out: Cordy: 12 Angel: 14 Wes: 5 Doyle; 1 Gunn; 1 Lorne; 3 Groo; 1

Kills: 2 vamps for Angel. 2 for Connor as well and we can add in the demon he killed in The Price Cordy: 5 vamps, 3 demons Angel; 41 vamps, 57 and 1/2 demons, 7 humans Doyle; 1 vamp Wes; 12 demons+3 vamps, 2 humans Kate; 3 vamps Faith; 16 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans. Gunn; 10 vamps+ 11 demons. Groo; 1 demon Fred; 1 vamp Connor; 2 vamps and one demon

Fang Gang go evil: Cordy: 2 Angel: 2 Gunn; 1 Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang: Cordy: 2 Angel: 8 Fred; 1

Characters killed: 46

Recurring characters killed; 8;

Total number of Angel Investigations: 6, Angel, Cordy, Gunn, Fred, Lorne and Groo

Angel Investigations shot: Angel: 12 Wes; 1

Packing heat; Wes; 6 Doyle; 1 Angel; 2 Gunn; 1

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost: Cordy: 4 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo Angel: 5; Buffy, Darla and The Transcending Furies Wes; 2; Virginia and the bleached blonde Gunn; 1 Fred Fred; 1 Gunn Groo; 1Cordy

Kinky dinky: According to Fred's gizmo Connor is 'Hot'. Gunn dislikes the idea of tracking Angel's teenage son's 'emissions'.

Captain Subtext; Groo and Lorne, their scene together very reminiscent of a scene in season 5 Buffy with Xander and Riley at the magic shop. But the Groo does it SOOOOO much better than Riley does "If she asks" Awwwwww!

Know the face, different character; 4

Parking garages; 5,

Buffy characters on Angel; 16 Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony

Questions and observations; One thing I've noticed in working my way through Buffy season 6 and Angel season 3 is that I keep leaping ahead wanting to watch more and more Angel and not Buffy. Note that the PTB's decide to save Justine through CC's vision. Holtz is quite religious believing god gave him Connor. You genuinely get the impression that they do love each other. Interestingly Fred refers to 'being at the bottom of the ocean looking upwards'. Does Holtz go to hell? Is he an evil man? The only evil thing I can think off he does is slitting Wes' throat but that's Justine and we've no idea that he even knew about it.

Holtz is disappointed that they've only been gone for a few days, of course he is, he wanted it to be a longer period so that Angel would suffer more. It's interesting to watch the father/son scenes between Holtz and Connor, I was a big fan of The Equalizer back in the 80s and you had very much the same dynamic between Edward Woodward and Keith Szarabajka's characters.
Ironically Buffy goes out of her way to keep Dawn away from vampire hunting whilst Angel takes Connor along as a bonding exercise.
Ah glowsticks! I miss the 90s. Note we see Holst give up Connor for his greater good just as we witness Angel doing when Holst leaps through the portal and will again at the end of season 4.


Marks out of 10; 8/10, an ep of great emotional depth and poignancy

reply

The only evil thing I can think off he does is slitting Wes' throat but that's Justine and we've no idea that he even knew about it.


Well, he did kidnap a child and used the child's love for him to turn him against his own father. That's evil.

Holtz didn't give up Connor for the greater good. He did it because he saw how Connor was bonding with Angel and that if he didn't do something (frame Angel for his murder), Connor would love his father and Angel would get to have the family he took from Holtz.

You are sin.

reply

Or did he save Connor from Angelus? By his actions he both punishes Angel yet allows Connor a better life (I'm sure he'd greatly approve of Gunn and Fred raising him)?

In Holtz's mind he didn't frame Angel for murder, for him Angel was always a murderer.

reply

Holtz was under no belief that Angel would revert to Angelus. He knew nothing about the father killing the son prophesy. If it was just about getting Connor away from Angel, he already knew Wes was planning on doing that.

Also, Quor'toth was not a better life.

Holtz framed Angel for his own murder. That's still framing someone. An act he knew would set Connor off against Angel.

There were no good intentions in Holtz kidnapping Connor. Even his speech about finding something more powerful than hate in love is explained in the commentary that this was Holtz realizing he need to use Connor's love for himself as revenge against Angel. Hate was not enough to turn son against father. But love was.

You are sin.

reply

Completely agree. Connor was an instrument of vengeance for Holtz. He loved Connor in his own way but still used him right to the end. The speech he gave Angel was purely to placate him. He wanted him to live with his son hating him.

reply

Again, Holtz was convinced that Angel would once again turn to Angelus at some stage and he was eventually proven right?

reply

I gotta disagree.

Holtz didn't care whether Angel would turn or not. He wanted to punish Angel. Vengeance was his game, not protecting Connor. He spent 18 years turning the boy against his father. Remember his lie: "He'll never even know you existed."

I also have to disagree that Holtz was proven right. Angel only turned to get information. Willingly. He didn't some how lose his soul. He gave it up to save the world.

Seize the moment, 'cause tomorrow you might be dead.

reply

Angel only turned into Angelus to kill the Beast...

The Beast that was summoned by Evil Cordy...

Cordy was evil because she was taken over on the higher plane so she could get impregnated by adult Connor...

Connor only became an adult quickly because he was kidnapped by Holtz & taken to Quortoth, where time passes faster...

SO, one could argue that Angel became Angelus indirectly because of Holtz.

reply