MovieChat Forums > The Boondock Saints (2000) Discussion > Is anyone even noticing how well this mo...

Is anyone even noticing how well this movie is written, paced and acted?


First of all, I want to point that I'm looking for a productive discussion here, especially with people who didn't enjoy this movie. I don't just want to praise it because I personally love it but rather want to understand the extreme negativity that is often pointed towards it. Even some fans refer to it as being a guilty pleasure which I can simply not understand at all. A guilty pleasure means, at least to me, that I enjoy something although or exactly because it is bad. Schumacher's Batman movies are a personal example for that. I like watching them occasinally just because of their weird colorfulness and plain stupidity. But watching The Boondock Saints is stated as a similar experience? How? It's a good comedy and that's why I have to laugh a lot about it but that's something completely different than enjoying a guilty pleasure for its failure.

I've just watched this movie tonight for about the 6th or 7th time since it came out in '99 and every time I see it again I'm simply astonished by the level of competence that you can notice in pretty much every aspect of it. This film was written and directed by a barkeeper but it doesn't feel amateurish in the slightest way. A lot of people are totally bashing this movie for reasons I can hardly understand and that's why I opened this thread. Even if you personally don't like the movie, can you really not see how well it is made? For example, I personally never cared for Kubrick's The Shining although I could hardly imagine anything that I would critize about it. It just doesn't appael to me. I'm not a big horror fan, I often don't really like movies with a very limited location and cast etc. I have purely pesonal problems with it but I would never ever call it a weak film in any way, because I can clearly see what people love so much about it. But I can't recall having ever read something similar about The Boondock Saints. Whenever it's critized, it's being bashed or simply being called "stupid crap for teenagers".

Let me illustrate a couple of aspects of the film that really stand out to me as being great or even unique. I'm not claiming that these are objectively great or anything like that but I do have some problems imagining that others could not even at least acknowldge a certain amount of quality here.

First of all, there is Willem Dafoe's character, Paul Smecker, and his performance. In all of his great portrayels, I have never seen better work by him - and he is pretty much always a world class actor. The character has so many small details that enrich it. For instance, he is the only one who has no problem with letting his body get touched by the victim's blood. Sometimes he goes through his hair with his bloody gloves as he is so into his detective work, while the other cops look at him bewilderedly. And there are all these little gay mannerisms that he shows throughout the film. He never goes over the top with it, which would make it annoying, but you can see some of his "gay touch" in almost every scene. The geratest thing about that is that the charatcer itself seems to be aware of his gay gestures and actively plays with them. It's just outstanding acting with the whole body. Furthermore, Smeckers thing with listening to classical music while at crime scenes, to fully delve in the location, is perfectly developed troughout the story. In the beginning, he uses it to focus his mind, to not get distracted by anything. But the more he becomes emotionally invested in these seemingly incromphensible murders, he loses his ability to be the calm "super-detective" as which he is (stylishly over the top) introduced. In the shoot-out climax, his character's delving into the crime scene is culminated. He can no longer use the music to focus but rather gets directed by it (although he doesn't listen to music within the film, the connection to the extra-diegetic music can clearly be made). Smecker manically conducting the music while even being physically present in his own narration of what has supposedly happened is not just a cool image, it's a turning point for the character in the story. That's why this moment is captured so extremely and iconicly and has a big impact on the viewer.

That was just one example of many things that I simply admire about this movie. I don't want to get into that much detail with other aspects but I do want to at least mention a few others. For example, the great pacing of the film. There is never any stretch of relatively uninetersting events happening. A movie like Tarantino's Jackie Brown, for instance, has long stretches of pretty much nothing important happening. While being a big Tarantino fan, I often find myself rather disinterested in this very slow paced and unspectacular movie that is Jackie Brown (I know that many people will not agree with me here). On the contrary, pretty much every scene in Boondock Saints is interesting as they all add something to the plot or the characters. I also love the humor of the film. That is of course even more dependent on personal taste than other aspects but, for example, the way the characters interact with each other is so well written and timed comedy. How Rocko is treated by its organisation (especially the joke scene), the dynamics and squabbling between him and the twins, I just love it. I don't think I ever liked a dumb gangster that treats his girlfriend like *beep* more than Rocko. He's the perfect blend of being equally comical and likeable, just as famous other characters like Frank Drebin or The Dude. The same is true with the dynamics between Smecker and the cops. The FBI guy teaching the local cops how their work is really done while sending the most incompetent one to get the coffee and bagels. That's just well excecuted comedy. And then, of course, there is the incredible audiovisual quality of the film. The music, the camerawork, the slow-mos, all this creates so many unforgetable images.

So in all these things I mentioned - and I could go on for quite a bit longer - is there really no quality filmmaking to be recognized? I don't find it fair that The Boondock Saints is largely perceived as this weird, rather stupid cult movie with a doubtful message, that only male teens might enjoy for its onesidedness and over the top coolness. No, it's so much more than "only" a cult movie. Just as The Big Lebowski, it's a really, really well acted, written and directed comedy that I will enjoy my whole lifetime. I've been loving it for more than 15 years now and it never gets old for me in the slightest way on every rewatch. At least in this way it is a real cult movie though I guess.

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I watched about 20 minutes of this movie yesterday before I bailed out. I thought it was abysmal. From the very beginning of the movie, everything was so off.

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No it was just a cash in to the trend. And everything you would expect from such a label. It did everything wrong really. It felt like a teenager wrote and directed this movie. That's how juvenile it seems.

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agree with the OP, I feel a lot of people are afraid to admit that they like it.

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Or they just don't like it.

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Or you're a *beep*

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Not everyone has to like a movie. You realize that, right?

"Better to be a king for a night than a schmuck for a lifetime"

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A guilty pleasure is enjoying something that the majority of people think is crap. So if I said that I like watching the Twilight series that is a perfect example of a guilty pleasure.






My Vote history: http://www.imdb.com/user/ur1914996/ratings

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Ok? Did I ask what a guilty pleasure is or why do you write that? By the way, I don't even agree with your definition. I don't think it matters what others think of a movie to call it that, it only matters if you yourself feel it's bad but you still enjoy it despite or for its flaws.

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A guilty pleasure means, at least to me, that I enjoy something although or exactly because it is bad.
Did you ask? No, but you presented a definition of the term that is inaccurate. I was merely pointing out to you the correct definition.







My Vote history: http://www.imdb.com/user/ur1914996/ratings

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I have never heard another definition of a guilty plaesure than what I wrote above. If everyone would hate THE GODFATHER, would it then be a guilty pleasure to like it? That makes no sense at all. If you yourself think that it's a good movie, why should you feel "guilty" about liking it? The point of the term "guilty" is that you feel a movie is bad but you STILL like it. It doesnt't matter at all what the whole world things about that movie, it's only about your own frame of mind.

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If everyone would hate THE GODFATHER, would it then be a guilty pleasure to like it?

Technically yes but since The Godfather is universally beloved (mostly), liking it does not constitute it as being a guilty pleasure. If I told people "Yeah, The Godfather is my guilty pleasure" people would look at me like I had two heads. Why? Because there should be no guilt felt for liking a universally liked film.

The point of the term "guilty" is that you feel a movie is bad but you STILL like it.


Just because you feel a movie is bad doesn't mean it is. Also, how is a movie bad to you if you like it? That makes no fkn sense whatsoever. "Yeah I think this movie is bad but I still like it." WTF? You are very confused. 


I think you have made up your own mind of what the term "guilty pleasure" means and nothing I say will change it. But I am here to inform you (and possibly save you embarrassment in future conversations) that my definition in the widely accepted one.

Check it out:



https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=definition%20of%20guilty%20pleasure




guilt·y pleas·ure
noun
something, such as a movie, television program, or piece of music, that one enjoys despite feeling that it is not generally held in high regard.





See, I ain't making this sh!t up.


Sheesh.










My Vote history: http://www.imdb.com/user/ur1914996/ratings

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Why do you think nothing you say could change my mind? I think you have had too many discussions on this board^^

You don't understand how one can think a movie is bad but still liking it? You surely have heard about trash movies. There are many ways of enjoying a movie. And one of them is laughing about it because you find it cheesy or over the top. So yeah, I can like something despite or even because I would call it bad by "objective" standards. That's what MYSTERY SCIENCE THEATRE is doing for instance. Maybe you just wouldn't call that "liking"? But I'm sure you know what I mean. I do like THE ROOM. Hell, I LOVE it. But surely not in the same way I love THE BOONDOCK SAINTS.

I'm not an English native speaker so maybe I really always did get the term guilty pleasure wrong. But my problem is still, that the definition makes no sense to me. Why should I feel guilty if I honestly think the movie I'm watching is good? I don't know this feeling. What I do know though is that I watch certain movies like THE WICKER MAN or THEODORE REX and get some viewing pleasure out of them, although they are abviously complete failures. So you could say I feel guilty of liking to watch them because I know they are crap. You mentioned the TWILIGHT series. I haven't seen any of these but why should my personal movie experience be labeled differently if everyone or noone likes these movies? If I talk about my personal movie experience, I should be the one that matters, right?

The definition you gave sounds to me as if there would be some kind of genereal opinion that I have to obey and if mine differs from that, I should feel guilty because of that. Come on, who watches movies like that? And does this also work the other way around? Do you think you have to like AVATAR, because "everyone" else also does? And if you find it dull, boring and predictable you are ashamed of yourself? For instance, I think that CLOUD ATLAS is a great film. People critize the movies for many of its aspects but that doesn't change my personal feeling about it. I can discuss the criticisms and surely share some of them but I simply don't understand where some kind of guilt should be in the equasion. And how many people have to critize the movie before my experience becomes a guilty pleasure? If I'm the last man on earth, are there no guilty plesures anymore? I don't get that. It's not that I don't want to change my perception of the term, I simpyly don't get it.

If I think a movie is great I stand by that opionion and If I think it is crap it's just the same. No guilt whatsoever, hell, it's my opionion, why shoud l I feel guilty of it? The only time I could imagine a feeling that comes close to guilt is when I watch an obviously bad movie for its failures. It just doesn't make sense to me otherwise.

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But my problem is still, that the definition makes no sense to me. Why should I feel guilty if I honestly think the movie I'm watching is good?

Because if it is a movie that most people, that is the widely accepted judgment, think it is crap then you should feel guilty for liking it because it suggests that you have bad taste. Do you get it now?


I haven't seen any of these but why should my personal movie experience be labeled differently if everyone or noone likes these movies? If I talk about my personal movie experience, I should be the one that matters, right?
That may be true and I won't argue that. But for the sake of the saying "guilty pleasure" and it's proper meaning then you have to know that the meaning came around with the belief that the general consensus is the ultimate authority of what is true with this case being that the film is indeed good or bad. It's just like here at IMDB, you could look a movie up and it has a 9/10 star rating but then you watch it and you hated it. I'm sure it happens to all of us.






My Vote history: http://www.imdb.com/user/ur1914996/ratings

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Ok, I think understand now where the term is coming from and what it means - and therefore probably won't use it anymore in the future.^^ BTW, do you like The Boondock Saints? ;-)

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BTW, do you like The Boondock Saints? ;-)





I gave it 6 outta 10 stars.








My Vote history: http://www.imdb.com/user/ur1914996/ratings

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@Tamino-Muth And then, of course, there is the incredible audiovisual quality of the film. The music, the camerawork, the slow-mos, all this creates so many unforgetable images.
Give us a break.

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I don't understand what you mean with your statement. And who is "us"? This scene is one of my favorite scenes of all time in terms of audiovisual quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsuH1msEkvM

If you find that opinion so ridiuculous then why not explain to me, why this movie has none of these qualities I mentioned. Do you want to talk about the movie or write arrogant one-liners?

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@Tamino-Muth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsuH1msEkvM

It's a stupid scene. "It was a fυсkin' ambush!" Really? Then it was the worst ambush ever, because the idea of an ambush is to hide so that your targets can't see you, not to stand directly in front of them without even having your guns drawn.

The assassin uses up six guns and still doesn't kill any of them. Not much of an assassin. Then he turns around and... vanishes? Does he drive off or does he run away? Who can tell? But somehow you think this scene has "audiovisual quality" - who even talks like that?

If you find that opinion so ridiuculous then why not explain to me, why this movie has none of these qualities I mentioned.
I've done enough explaining already. Maybe someone else will point out how stupid this movie is and that there are plenty of better movies in a similar genre. I can't be bothered right now.

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Thanks for your productive input. It's just impossible to discuss anything on this platform.

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@Tamino-Muth It's not impossible - just don't expect everyone to agree with you.

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Don't listen to these fools. It has a 7.9 rating on IMDB which means the majority thinks is pretty good, even if it is a bit juvenile. It's no Citizen Kane, but it is certainly fun to watch. It adds a little something too, that this is a first time script and movie from a dickhead bartender from Boston.

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What is striking to me is the amount of humor in this movie.

With a vigilante plot, I would not expect the dynamic duo choosing weapons from a delicatessen filled with the most exotic weaponry, short of nuclear. The brother who decides he "needs rope" as part of their hit on the Russian mob. The bother mocks him for his stupid decision.

Then, the brothers crawl through a metal duct above the mobsters discussion. The brother says, that rope must weigh 30 pounds, disregarding all the weaponry they have. Then, the brothers get into a fight - with each other! - in the cramped duct which collapses them through the ceiling above the assembled mobsters. A brother says "see why we brought the rope?"

The dialogue is so witty throughout. It comes under the category of "deadpan humor", which is rare in today's movies, but a staple of classics from the 1930s-40s.

E pluribus unum

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I like it but watching it today (literally) I feel like the editing could have been better.

I mean in some scenes it's brilliant but in others they cut down the scenes a little too fast, many scenes would have worked better if they had a couple of seconds to wind down before starting the next.

And I don't like the multiple fade to black fadeouts to close a scene, it just looks tacky, like tv movies right before the advertisement.

But overall not many complaints.



Amazing indeed: https://youtu.be/dC3MpShH61I

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