you have to look at the major differences between the 2 things. Tony and jackie aprile snr got away with knocking over feechs card game because they didn't do anything that stupid, they didn't shoot at made men, they didn't kill the dealer, sunshine wasn't made, but he worked for the mob, he made them money and was under their protection.
and thats the difference, jackie jnr, dino and carlo shot at made men, they killed their dealer, they went way over what tony and jackie did. and like we've already said there was protection there because of who tony and jackie snr were related to.
so whats the discussion? that if tony and jackie snr did what jackie jnr, carlo and dino did, would they be let off? it's an interesting question.
heres the thing. jackie jnr has a lot of cloat, he's the son of a boss, the grandson of another boss, his mother is in the inner circle of mob wives, he's the step-son of ralphie, a captain. jackie can go to tonys house, he can eat dinner, although it could sound silly, it's a big deal. jackie jnr dates meadow, he cheats on her, he gets a lap dance, he messes around, this hurts tony. he later knocks over the card game.
Ralphie who is a captain asks for a pass for jackie jnr, he has that power, but during 2 conversations with tony, he is subconsciously talked into killing jackie jnr.
This seems obvious to me that it was tonys revenge for what jackie jnr did to meadow. you're asking if tony soprano in the same circumstances would have been killed or got a pass? well like junior says "we bend more rules than the catholic church"
anything could be worked out or go the other way depending on whos doing the talking and how much influence they have
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TexasJack (12516)
4 years ago
"tonys revenge for what jackie jnr did to meadow."
Could be partially that. I certainly don't see him allowing Jackie Jr. to be executed if the card game was a "first offense". If he was a hard-working college student and was happily dating Meadow without any of the screw-ups and then the card game thing went down, I think he would have gotten a pass. Probably would have owed Furio a considerable tax
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jimmyjuliano12 (342)
4 years ago
when it comes to the mafia, theres no rules, well yeah theres rules, but they change them whenever it suits them. jackie jnr did something stupid. but in many senses he was mob royality, came from a "good" family, well respected. his father was not only a boss. but the best friend of tony, the current boss.
so he shoots up the card game, ralphie who is now a captain, according to mob rules can give anyone a pass. he goes to tony and says that he wants to give him a pass
then tony enters into this reverse psychology of "who cares what people say behind your back, you schooled him the best you could, didnt ya?"
in other words, "people will call you weak, and jackie jnr is out of control because of you"
ralphie leaves the sit down and looks worried, he's in shock....he knows what he has to do.
tony pushing so hard for jackie to be killed, just episodes after catching him getting a lapdance while dating his daughter....
i always thought it was made clear that this was tonys revenge.
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Abed303 (282)
4 years ago
I agree that it's not unrealistic to think that Tony could have been given a pass if he shot up the card game. I find the idea of an internal war over the decision to be unbelievable though. Even if Johnny Soprano had enough control in his organization (which I don't think is realistic either) to succeed in a coup, I don't think the other families wouldn't stand for it.
I also agree that if he was still dating Meadow, Jackie Jr. would likely have been forgiven too.
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jimmyjuliano12 (342)
4 years ago
You have to understand how all this works, in the late 70s an irish bum killed carlo gambinos god son. carlo cambino was the most powerful and respected boss ever. he has 1000s of men who could find and kill this guy. but he decides to give it to a rising star, john gotti.
Gotti is making money, doing ok, but nothing special, gambino makes a point of giving him "this piece of work" as a way into something bigger.
gambino has two underbosses, neil dellacroce and paul castellano, castellano makes gotti take one of his guys with him, the hit gets messed up when castellanos guy kills the irishman in front of a full bar.
to get revenge, gotti later has castellanos soldier killed.
going off the rules, gotti would have his funeral the same day as castellanos solider.
but it's worked out because gotti is like a son to dellacroce.
my point being anything can be worked out if you've got someone with influence in your corner.
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Abed303 (282)
4 years ago
I don't see how that has anything to do with the other user's suggestion that if it didn't work out Johnny Soprano would be in a position to stage a coup to save his son.
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jimmyjuliano12 (342)
4 years ago
it wouldn't get to that point in the first place.
the sopranos were in the mafia, every part of it, jackie aprile senior senior was boss. this makes it obvious that tony and jackie aprile would have more than likely got passes.
if it would have been decided that they had to die, then they would have died. remember that tony soprano killed his own cousin, tony blundetto. because he knew it had to be done.
no coups, a decision would be made and thats it.
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Abed303 (282)
4 years ago
"no coups, a decision would be made and thats it."
That is exactly my point and I've already referenced Tony B's killing up above.
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jimmyjuliano12 (342)
4 years ago
the other user is right on one thing, you say that johnny boy soprano didn't have the power to make decisions, he wasn't boss you're right, but he was a captain.
ralphie goes to satriales to talk to tony about what jackie jnr did. he says "you know what? i wanna give him a pass"
tony never says "no, you can't, i'm boss, he dies" he just using reverse psycology, talks him around to killing him. tony never contradicts him.
a captain and even a made man i believe can give you a pass. johnny boy soprano, corrado or jackie aprile senior senior.... would have had enough power to get their kids a pass.
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Abed303 (282)
4 years ago
I never said Johnny Soprano couldn't make decisions. Just that it wouldn't have been his call what happened to his son. He'd have influence over that decision as a captain though, absolutely.
The only reason Ralphie was talking about it with Tony was because he knew it was ultimately Tony's decision. When Raphie told Tony what he wanted to do, he was essentially asking Tony for permission. Tony gave the decision to Ralphie so he could keep his hands clean, not because the rules dictated it was Ralphie's decision.
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jimmyjuliano12 (342)
4 years ago
no, theres a specific term used a "pass" the boss in theory can do whatever he likes, he's the boss. but a captain, which ralph and johnny boy soprano were. would be able to give you a pass. they have that power, and it's respected even by the boss.
you're forgeting a lot, jackie jnr calls tony from the projects, tony tells him "don't call here" later he sees ralphie, he tells ralphie about the phone call.
then tony tells ralphie "whatever YOU decide make sure that it happens in a timely manner, you don't want to create confusion"
so yeah, it is for ralphie to decide jackie jnrs outcome, it's just that tony has already used reverse psycology to get what he wants, but he never contradicts ralph.
the only way that a pass would be invalid is if someone went way too far. doing something that would make it impossible for him to be saved. but yeah ralphie had the power to save jackie jnr.
tony had the power to fight new york on tony blundetto, to send blundetto to wherever, and fight NY, but he didn't, ralphie had the power to save jackie, but he knew business wise, reputation wise, it wasn't the smart move. like tony and tony b.
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Abed303 (282)
4 years ago
A pass is just a slang term that means forgiveness. It was Ralphie's call because Jackie Jr. worked directly for him as part of his crew, not because of any inherent powers granted to Ralphie as a captain.
It's ignorant to assume what I've forgotten. Ralphie's conversations with Tony about what to do with Jackie Jr. are just examples of the management checking in with the owner over a critical decision... because Tony's opinion is what matters.
A captain has ZERO power over a boss. The boss's decisions are unilateral.
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jimmyjuliano12 (342)
4 years ago
no, you don't understand, it's not slang.
pass: A reprieve from being whacked. paying tribute: giving the boss a cut of the deal. pinched: to get caught by the cops or federal agents. points: percent ...
if ralphie would have really dug is heels in and said "i want to give him a pass" going off the rules of the mob, tony would have had to respect it. could tony have had him killed anyway? of course. but a captain has power. the boss has the final say, but he isn't a dictator. what the boss says doesn't always go, if tony would have whacked a made man, the rules say that silvio or paulie would have had to kill him, thats why ralphies murder was a secret.
tony says to ralphie more than once "it's your decision" whats so hard to understand about that?
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Abed303 (282)
4 years ago
Are we really going to have a debate over the semantics?
Slang: a type of language that consists of words and phrases that are regarded as very informal, are more common in speech than writing, and are typically restricted to a particular context or group of people.
Why does Tony need to repeatedly reinforce to Ralphie that it's his decision? Ralphie should be quite famililar with the "rules". It's quite obvious that Ralphie recognizes Tony's authority, his complex relationship with Jackie Jr, and wants to make sure Tony is satisfied with the decision.
If Tony told Ralphie to give him a pass and Jackie was killed anyways there would be consequences for Ralphie. Those might happen under the radar so Tony didn't appear to lack control over his famliy, but Tony could just as easily make an example out of him. Ralphie would be fucked either way.
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jimmyjuliano12 (342)
4 years ago
ralphie says "i wanna give him a pass"
tony doesn't say no, but ralphie comes to realize that in the long run, it's not smart.
you're saying things that don't make sense. you're arguing things that make no sense. i've read too much on the mob. made men and captains aren't some dumb slaves to the boss, the boss is the boss. but a "pass" is almost like a get out of jail free card.
remember when mustang sally caved vitos brothers head in with the golf club?
old man baccala goes to him and says "I. I got you a pass", not "tony has given you a pass"
"I" not tony!
it was a lie and he wacked him! but thats another story
this means that someone, whos made, a captain, has the cloat to go to the boss and say "look, he f'd up, but... i wanna give him a pass"
there will, 100% yes, be times when the boss could say "no, he's gone too far..." it's true.
but these "passes" have been used a lot, you just don't know it, after gotti whacked one of castellanos soliders, carlo gambino was ready to put a hit out on gotti, called by castellano.
neil dellacroce asked gambino THE BOSS for a pass for gotti, he got it.
it's hard to explain something to you, that you don't want to understand.
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Abed303 (282)
4 years ago
Ralphie was checking with Tony to make sure he was making the right call. Of course these guys can make decisions on their own, but they also know when something warrants approval from their boss. I don't know how you fail to understand that.
Baccala is a terrible example, both because he lied about it and because the phrase "I got you a pass" is an expression, meaning his involvement led to the pass. Was there a single instance in the show where a captain gave someone a pass against the desires of their boss? Not one.
All I was ever saying was if Johnny wanted his son to get a pass and old man DiMeo disagreed, well goodbye Tony.
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Threadkiller (3089)
4 years ago
it's hard to explain something to you, that you don't want to understand.
I think sometimes certain people are just content with arguing in circles because they enjoy the company. I had to move on myself.
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