Members only jacket guy?
The two black guys looking at the pie?
The old man with the cap?
The guy with the two cub scouts?
Carmela?
What do you think?
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DIE, FANBOY, DIE share
Who Killed Tony At Holstens?
Chase had the ending formulated in his mind sometime before the final season was filmed. Have you missed all the correct interpretations as to the ending matching Chase's hints?
The reason Chase doesn't flat out reveal what happened to Tony is because it would completely take away from the point of the ending - the point being that death is silent and black and that we don't know when it happens. This is indicated by the conversation between Tony and Bobby on the boat, which is flashbacked to in the second to last episode for that reason. The editing build up at Holsten's at the climax and the smash cut to blackness and silence is further evidence of Tony's fate and the aforementioned point.
This is all creates a much more chilling, disturbing, sad, and impactful ending. Much more effective than the tired "crime doesn't pay" ending that would have come from seeing Tony go down in a hail of bullets. Chase himself detested the notion of an audience hypocritically cheering on Tony's misdeeds while expecting him to be seen punished with death at the end. Ditto he didn't want any indication of Tony living happily ever after. Hence this ending.
Have you missed all the correct interpretations ....
Stories can have interpretations and art can be interpreted differently by people, while having a direct message conveyed by the creator.
The editing, or hints of the scene undoubtedly point in the direction that Tony is about to be clipped. The tension is intentionally arife. The black screen and silence surely happens for a reason. Surely you would have thought Tony was about to be killed if you are a fan of the series? To my recollection, Chase has been consistent in saying all the clues are there. Revealing Tony's fate diminishes the theme and impact of the cut to black ending.
Again, he didn't want the outright predictable crime doesn't pay ending, nor did he want an indication that Tony would live happily ever after. How would you have liked to have seen it end?
How would you have liked to have seen it end?
Yes it's not conventionally conclusive - that angered a lot of people. With myself, I always expected it to end in that manner. How did you expect it to end? Did you want him to live?
I think many would have cried foul myself included. It would have left the high tension editing and dread of the climax and the adrupt cut to black, conveying death, all for naught. I can't imagine Chase ever doing that. He never gave any indication of bringing back the series.
Initially, I had the same reaction as you. But I came across this post a while back that convinces me beyond doubt that Tony was killed in the final scene:
https://masterofsopranos.wordpress.com/the-sopranos-definitive-explanation-of-the-end/
The essence of the analysis is that the scene repeats a sequence of shots in the same order, one of those shots being Tony's POV. The final black frame is in the exact spot where Tony's POV shots were during the previous sequences.
I skimmed most of the info at that link, and all I see is the same mental exercise folks do when trying to fit a Nostradamus prognostication into historical events ex post facto.
Nothing in that treatise convinced me that anything happened beyond the scene being cut short.
Then what would be the point of the scene then? The flashback towards the discussion of death and blackness, the sequence of shots and rising tension, and the cut to a POV of blackness itself and a long silence before the credits roll?
shareThen what would be the point of the scene then?
If we take the "if we didn't see it, it didn't happen" approach, then I suppose no amount of indirect evidence will suffice. There is certainly merit to that view, and I held it myself for years. Frankly, I was so put off by the ending that I didn't re-watch it for a long time.
However, while I may be annoyed by what isn't on the screen, I can't ignore what is there. Considering Bobby Baccalieri's foreshadowing comment ("You probably don't even hear it when it happens, right?") and the repeated sequence of camera shots ending exactly where Tony's POV shots had been four times previously, I cannot reach any other conclusion: Tony sleeps with the fishes.
The choice of shots were intentional and planned by Chase. He has stated it wasn't supposed to be a riddle meant for multiple interpretation.
In my own honest opinion, I don't see any merit to the idea that absolutely nothing happened. If we're paying attention; everything is very much thrown at us, short of seeing it, that Tony is about to be clipped. I believe the denial coming simply from not seeing it is rooted in a desire to see him live.
I agree, although, for me, it stemmed from a fan's frustration of being robbed of what I considered to be a critical part of the story, rather than from a desire to see Tony live. In fact, I credit Chase with doing an admirable job of progressively making Tony a less sympathetic character (his rather casual murder of Christopher being a threshold event in that effort).
I think the basics of storytelling are increasingly forgotten, and it's unfortunate. I appreciate subtext. I really do. That said, if I've invested six years in watching your story unfold, I expect the damned story to unfold. I'm not looking to engage in MFA thesis research to discover what you were trying to say. The fact that I was able to understand his intention several years after the fact does not excuse Chase's arrogance and contempt for his audience.
Tony sleeps with the fishes.
To flat out say Tony died ruins the impact and theme that Chase was striving for. That is again, that death comes as blackness, a suprise, something we don't know has actually happened. Another indication of that is there is seemingly no one in that episode shown to still want Tony dead after Phil is taken out - adding to the shock. All that effect is gone from the climax should Chase just confess: "Yes Tony died, his brains everywhere and so and so did it because..." Mystery and shock and theme all gone for nothing and since everything is pretty clear to us anyway.
shareI completely agree with you on that score and I think it stems from his arrogance, as I mention in my reply to Retromogul. But he has made several statements to the effect of "everything is right there, if you look for it".
If you actually read the article, while watching the ending (going back and forth obviously, not simultaneously), it becomes rather convincing. At least it did for me.
shareI did both, and it did not convince me. I'm certainly not saying that you or anyone should think otherwise.
If we must assign something to the fade-out other than the obvious (meant nothing), then the fade to black could have been "us". We were done for; no more Sopranos to watch...
But let's say that the article is correct in it's assessment. What kind of artist films a *visual* story and requires hours, days, months, or years of arguing about it to figure what it's about? Why must we have to watch a scene over and over?
A gifted story teller can weave a tapestry of visuals that will move a viewer to any emotion in the gamut and not have to rely on cheap editing and misdirection to tell an inconclusive ending. Chase is not gifted, and he showed it with that last show he insisted on writing himself. IMO many of his episodes were weak; he should have assigned the last show to one of the others or formed a group. The show deserved better.
However, if Chase truly wanted Tony killed (and he STILL won't say it out loud) but didn't want it to be graphic or even obvious, then he should have given me a call. I would have had the scene play out where he looks up at the door (as filmed), hears a click, turns his head toward the bathroom, and just as his eyes showed some sort of recognition or reaction (fear, confusion, dejection, acceptance - pick your poison), THEN go to black.
You would still get a bit of that "what the eff just happened!!" but at least everyone would know with almost complete certainty that Tony was dead.
I didn't like the way the series ended when I first saw it, I must admit. However, it's grown on me. I certainly don't buy the argument that it would have to be unambiguous to be great story telling, which you seem to be saying.
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I certainly don't buy the argument that it would have to be unambiguous to be great story telling, which you seem to be saying.
I agree it's ambiguous, I don't concede it.
shareI would attest that Chase is a gifted writer, considering also that he was head writer throughout the entire series who came up with many of the big ideas.
In my opinion, it can't be considered a misdirection since the editing is heading in one direction to say Tony will be killed, coupled with the flashback that appears out of place but gives the indication that death for the protagonist will be unknowing and adrupt ("You probably don't know that it happens"). Chase has always maintained without ambivalence that what happens is there.
I don't think a slightly more emotional reaction shot before the blackness could have carried the same disturbing impact and conveyance of theme - again "you probably don't know when it happens".
And I'm sure some people would still be arguing about it and accusing Chase of things. Hollywood has cursed many to expect linear A to B plotting and absolute closures - The Sopranos aspired to realism and something nore artful.
But I digress, the ending conveys that Tony is distracted by Meadow's late entry to the door after having trouble parking her car (those cut to her parking being there for a reason), leaving Tony to be shot in the back of the head by the Members Only guy, whom the camera kept focusing on for a reason before he entered the bathroom behind Tony. The back of the head is completely unknown to Tony, keeping to the "you probably don't know when it happens".
Beyond this point, if I have to respond again it will have to be in a new text box as my reply boxes just keep getting narrower on my phone.
The paperboy killed Tony. Tony never paid him, so the paperboy went over To Holsten's and let Tony have it.
shareThat one last, greasy onion ring.
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