Members only jacket guy?
The two black guys looking at the pie?
The old man with the cap?
The guy with the two cub scouts?
Carmela?
What do you think?
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DIE, FANBOY, DIE share
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How is anyone supposed to know? It was one of Phil's guys, most likely, but nobody in the restaurant looked familiar to the audience. Even Chase doesn't know--he wants the audience to argue about it!
He who conquers himself is mightier than he who conquers a city.
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The guy that went into the toilet, I was in 2 minds over wether tony died until I saw the theory of Chris's 3 o'clock warning after being in a coma, and the toilets being at Tony's 3'oclock
shareIt's a Tony POV shot (pun intended), we know as much as Tony did the few milliseconds before his life force is snuffed out. Like Tony, we'll never know.
"Man without relatives is man without troubles." Charlie Chan
How do you know it's Tony's POV? Last shot we see would be Meadow's view of him, so wouldn't it be her POV?
shareI haven't seen it in a while, but the door is about to open IIRC.
It's Tony's POV because, as I said, the flash to black/silence is Tony's exit, the nothingness of death.
In numerous interviews the creators and producers have said that they never designated a killer, they left it up to interpretation.
Since we're discussing it here, all these years later, it seems they made the right choice. There's no way to nail down even which crew did it. It didn't necessarily have to be Phil's organization, it could have been anyone for a myriad of reasons.
"Man without relatives is man without troubles." Charlie Chan
How can it be Tony's POV if we're looking at Tony's face when it cuts to black? Tony's POV would be if we saw the door opening from inside and Meadow coming in.
shareCut to black is Tony's POV, he's dead, the big nothing.
When Bobby and Tony are on the lake, Bobby says "you never hear it coming", or something along those lines.
"Man without relatives is man without troubles." Charlie Chan
Sorry but you're wrong. When it cuts to black we're looking at him. I'm not sure how you can dispute this when his face is the last thing we see. If it was his POV we'd see from his position, which means we'd see Meadow at the door.
shareWhen it cuts to black, the silent blackness IS his POV.
Is it that hard to understand that a dead persons consciousness would be black and silent...nothingness?
"Man without relatives is man without troubles." Charlie Chan
When it cuts to black we are looking at Tony, do you dispute this?
shareYou're kidding, right?
"Man without relatives is man without troubles." Charlie Chan
This is why this board is tripe
not you cobram, but the others needless pulling teeth, when one says it cuts to his POV, its clearly AFTER the bell rings, when during the entire scene, thats how it occurs
Bell rings we CHANGE from seeing TONY, to seeing what tony SEES hence his POV
after the last bell, it goes black
its not rocket science its HBO
Terrible....take a lap
Wrong. In the previous instances it doesn't cut to Tony's pov mid-sequence. We're looking at Tony when it's cuts to black, so it's Meadow's POV, not Tony's. What you say would only make sense if it cuts to black with us looking at Meadow at the door.
shareWhat happens when the bell rings, we cut to a different POV, right before the CUT to black bell rings, come on man you know the deal
we were looking at meadow and then the bell and then black
Terrible....take a lap
Sorry but the last thing WE see is Tony, not Meadow. We have Meadow's POV when it cuts to black, not Tony's. Not sure why this is so difficult for you to understand.
shareYes just like every time before the bell rang
The bell ringing was proceeded by what Mr sparkle
Terrible....take a lap
It was proceeded by nothing. If Chase wanted to show Tony's pov we'd see Meadow and then it would cut to black. He cut to black early so it would be ambiguous. Hence his own quotes:
"There's more than one way of looking at the ending. That's all I'll say."
"Either it ends here for Tony or some other time"
Are you going to pretend he didn't say these things?
By nothing, you say, like the nothingness one would see after being shot and being dead?
Thank you Mr sparkle thank you
Terrible....take a lap
By saying nothing about the two Chase quotes are you implying that you agree with them?
Thank you woodntuliketoknow thank you
Nope since both of the quotes you posted help my conclusion
"There's more than one way of looking at the ending. That's all I'll say."
"Either it ends here for Tony or some other time"
"There's more than one way of looking at the ending. That's all I'll say."
"Either it ends here for Tony or some other time"
Yes, I can really see how these quotes support your claim
Seems you've given up on serious replies now that you've had your @ss handed to you
Either it ends HERE or some other time
there's acknowledgement in him dying there
You can fit it into your argument however u see fit
Me and the majority of other see it as him dying im sorry youre in the minority
but your quotes dont help you
BUTTTTTTT
What way are YOU looking at it, it sounds like just the one?!?!?!?!!?!
Terrible....take a lap
Moron, I already stated clearly that it's ambiguous, which is how Chase intended. Only he knows what happened and he's content to take it to his grave while *beep* with the fans every few years with nonsense statements.
You're obsessed with him needing to be dead, whereas I don't care one way or the other, because we were deliberately never given closure.
Incorrect
However in the fictional Universe in which The Sopranos exist Tony dies
Is it ambiguous yep
Do I still think Tony died yep
What's with the hurling insults at one another are you that angry mr. Sparkle
Terrible....take a lap
He's only dead in the empty space between your ears. Chase never wanted us to know, otherwise there's no reason for him to end it like he did and act like such an arrogant, smug tw@t for all these years. He's having a laugh at all of us.
shareNa I'm pretty sure of the millions who have watched the series the FAR MAJORITY believe he died
Go ask anyone you know who's watched and see their response
Terrible....take a lap
What does their opinion matter when the creator has said that there's more than one way of looking at it? Some people want to believe he died cause they think he deserved it and it would bring them closure, but Chase never cared about closure as he proved by never revisiting the Slava/Valery situation. In fact, he makes fun of people who require closure and compares them to children.
shareSince there is nothing definitive, and in terms of the fictional universe in which the Sopranos existed something had to happen
you want to sit and say The creator hasnt said anything and live by it then go right ahead, enjoy it please
However were on IMDb, on a message board for the show, thats why its a question of importance here, does it affect my day to do, Nope.
Chase only doesnt care to the point that people are still talking about it
notice how little people talk about breaking bad now or basically any other show.
Its fun to think about, so when users like you right here want to shut the door on it, is why its faced with backlash, do you get that?
Probably Not
So in easy terms, Message board talky about show, muy fun (divertido) in case you dont speak english
Terrible....take a lap
Quite the morph in this thread.
The title and premise of this thread is "Who Killed Tony at Holstens?"
As such, the short, easy answer would be, nobody knows.
Mr. Sparkles is being argumentative for argument's sake.
"Man without relatives is man without troubles." Charlie Chan
Wrong, the short, easy answer would be, nobody knows if he died or not.
shareYes but to those here, most think he did die, and thats why they say as such.
your reasons otherwise are contrite and dull
Terrible....take a lap
It took u four days to say that?
Why not just pussyfoot around or ignore it your insatianonable need to want to be right has a week left
It's funny how you have backed off your initial thought thanks Mr sparkle
Terrible....take a lap
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Hey, imadbasayev. Do you still cyber with mcgillicutty?
share@imadbasayev. I agree with you that it is Meadow's POV. Maybe it is her who got whacked instead of Tony?? :)
shareWhen it cuts to black we are looking at Tony, do you dispute this?
To Love and win is the best thing. To Love and lose, the next best.share
Moron, the last thing we see before it cuts to black is Tony. Anything you suggest we're looking at after is conjecture. The only fact is that he's alive and we're looking at him when it ends.
shareName calling, the final action of a person who's run out of the few ideas they had.
Goodbye, you will have the honor of likely being the last person I add to my ignore list before this board ceases to be.
"Man without relatives is man without troubles." Charlie Chan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd9OsHsLJ28
All explained in this video
Naw, it was the Cub Scouts behind him. They wanted to impress the Girl Scouts, who had a beef about Tony's distribution cut of their product on the street (Girl Scout Cookies.)
"Man without relatives is man without troubles." Charlie Chan
You forget the young guy and gal who are on a date.
shareChase left it open as to what happened to Tony. I prefer to believe he was not shot, and was still alive. Believe what you want. . . . .
shareTony was killed by the man in the Members Only jacket. Because Meadow didn't get into the restaurant in time, there was open space next to Tony as he was sitting at the booth which gave a clear shot to Members Only man when he came out of the restroom.
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Who set Members Only man to the task of killing Tony?
Butch, Phil Leotardo's henchman and, it looks, next in line to take over that family(with the assistance of rotund, bespectacled consigliere.)
Consider the reasons: Tony had beaten Coco to near death in front of Butch, and threatened to kill Butch too. Butch couldn't let Tony live if Coco would be nursing his own grudges against Butch if Tony DID get to live. And Butch knows that Tony and/or his gang killed Fat Sam.
Butch was aware of Phil's plan, "Decapitate at the top and negotiate with who's left." Tony's dead, Sil's dead or will be physically impaired, Bobby's dead. Paulie -- we have seen -- would have been willing to side with Sack at one time, can probably be bought over to Butch. I also think that Phil, in agreeing with Carmine Sr that "The New Jersey family i s just a glorified crew," figured that his New York family could just take over the management of New Jersey. Why not?
Word's out: Carlos is talking, Tony's going to trial. NYC considers Tony a "kid" who never served jail time, and therefore he's a "rat risk." Take him out.
And just on general principles. Tony had Phil killed. Butch has Tony killed and evens up the score.
Except that Butch sanctioned the hit on Phil.
shareTrue. But under my scenario(unproven, never can be), Butch probably figured with Phil gone, Tony had to go too. "Clear the decks, end the bad blood" and start over. Phil's plan to takeover the Jersey "glorified crew" wasn't a bad idea. Take Tony out, there's not really much strength left there.
shareCompletely agree with your assessment ecarle. I always figured it would of been Butch and Coco in retaliation for Tony pointing a gun at Butch and beating Coco. Really, how much could Tony "the kid" from a "glorified crew" get away with? And given Butch's overall lack of respect for him and Tony going to trial without having served heavy jail time...
A perfect set up. Butch the kingmaker has the unstable and ill tempered Phil killed so to have a more reliable boss in himself. Also not wanting to put up with Coco's need for vengeance (like with Phil), and wanting revenge for Tony threatening him, Butch has Tony whacked. I imagine that in today's fictional Soprano's universe, the NJ crew no longer exists in its old independent form, but as a dependent subsidiary of New York. The weak Ally Boy Barese is probably now the nominal head of the NJ Family.
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The vague ending was a ploy to detract from the real ending to Tony Soprano which was going to be an indictment(s) involving murder, extortion, tax evasion, wire fraud, and practically every statute under R.I.C.O.
The Holstein's dinner was basically Tony's last sentimental moment with his family as he was going to end up serving a Life sentence just like the original DiMeo crime boss.
I'd rather accept that ending than the one that days he was shot by someone.
shareIf you watch season one I believe it's in the last episode that Tony and his family are stuck in a severe storm and head to Artie's restaurant to seek refuge but there's a power outage. Nonetheless, Artie lets them in and they enjoy an impromptu dinner together. Tony holds up his wine glass and toasts to this family that they will remember when they are older this little moment together and that IT was the most important thing about life
https://youtu.be/JQHMWU4qg0g?t=2m45s
If you watch season one I believe it's in the last episode that Tony and his family are stuck in a severe storm and head to Artie's restaurant to seek refuge but there's a power outage. Nonetheless, Artie lets them in and they enjoy an impromptu dinner together. Tony holds up his wine glass and toasts to this family that they will remember when they are older this little moment together and that IT was the most important thing about life
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And what's nice is how AJ brings that moment up again in the final scene, and Tony doesn't even remember saying it, but decides, "Well, its true."
Almost as anti-climactic as this final scene.
I'd rather accept that ending than the one that days he was shot by someone.
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Well, it is either the eternal greatness of David Chase OR his eternal curse of us Sopranos fans that EITHER ending is acceptable because Chase not only gave us no ending, he gave a few rather nasty and disgruntled interviews telling us that he would not give us one.
One of my sadnesses about open-ended ending of The Sopranos is that it seems to have been ready made for nasty internet arguments that have been going on for ten years now. In my own case, I find when I "trick myself" and take the bait of even discussing the ending -- all I do is draw argument, or end up in a thread with arguments.
But here is my feeling:
Noteable film directors, film producers, and screenwriters have all said: the ending is the most important part of any story. Its what the entire story is moving towards; audience members are constantly trying to imagine what the ending will be, the story gathers excitement as it starts to push hard TOWARDS that ending(this happened with about the last four episodes of The Sopranos, from Chris' death forward) and the storyteller rather has an obligation to deliver that ending.
David Chase did not do this. Some call that a great acheivement. I'm on the other side -- it was a poor move, and rather a cowardly one. Chase came from "regular TV"(The Rockford Files) and I think, in the final analysis, he just couldn't deliver on his own story at the level where great films(and The Sopranos IS a film) did: the ending.
Some examples of great endings:
Citizen Kane. Casablanca. Its a Wonderful Life. Sunset Boulevard. 12 Angry Men. Vertigo. Some Like It Hot. North by Northwest. The Apartment. Psycho. The Birds. Dr. Strangelove. Bonnie and Clyde. The Graduate. The Wild Bunch. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Dirty Harry. The Godfather. The Sting. Chinatown. Jaws. Star Wars. Raiders of the Lost Ark. Terms of Endearment. The Untouchables. Die Hard. GoodFellas. Silence of the Lambs.
Hell, that only got me through the 90's.
Anyway, I know I'll attract dissent, but I think that the Sopranos is about 88 hours and 55 minutes of classic entertainment.
With five final aggravating minutes that rather threw away the audience.
And I think David Chase has produced only one thing ever since -- a film with James Gandolfini that didn't do well.
Chase is famous and mega-rich...and a bit punished.