RWTD has great profoundity of what civil war is while CM is just like a infantile child's tale.
shareI agree that RWTD is better, but in what way did it "beat" Cold Mountain? How are they competing against each other?
Then, I suggest you watch "Pharoah's Army". It is a small film with a well-written script, an excellent story line and a great cast led by Chris Cooper and Patricia Clarkson. Mz. Clarkson's role of itself is worth the price of admission.
Southron
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Ride With the Devil doesn't cut the mustard for me, mainly because of the silly dialogue. I also found fault with the oh-so-noble southern accents and unrealistically romantic and well-kept uniforms and hair styles of men living in the woods. Toby Maguire acted as if overdosed on Valium throughout the movie; his transformation from farmboy to cold-blooded killer was unbelievable. Finally, this is just another in the long line of southern-sympathizing Hollywood movies in which Union soldiers display an incredible lack of military skill and willingness to stand and expose themselves so that heroic southerners can pick them off with their pistols. For a far better look at the guerilla warfare of that period, watch The Outlaw Josie Wales. For a superior portrayal of the horror and stupidity of war and how it impacts the lives of ordinary people, Cold Mountain tops Ride With the Devil, hands down.
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Yes, I would say that they had no class.
"When was this?" Uh, he was a bushwhacker who participated in execution-style murders.
There were no Union soldiers in Lawrence (except the guys in their underwear emerging from their tents). If your're referring to the brief battle afterwards, that's the one I'm talking about too. Watch it again and see how ineptly the Union side fights.
I didn't find much interest or depth in any of the characters except for Holt. The others were cardboard cutouts.
I give Ang Lee credit for a near miss with this one. But I'll concede that there is room for disagreement.
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I doubt I could take Jude Law seriously as an american soldier.
shareThe script/dialog was definitely better in CM. The dialog for this movie seemed like it was taken from the "Lost Cause" sort of literature, with every other sentence having to do with "Southern honor." While Dutchie would have been suspect because of his father's loyalties, you had many southerners fight for the North and northerners fight for the South.
When you look at the actors involved, CM is light years ahead of RWTD. And while I did think that Ang Lee capably directed this film (though I think his most recent film, "Lust, Caution," is his best), Anthony Minghella was also a great director, so it's a wash there.
Ride with the Devil and Cold Mountain are entirely different films. The point of RWTD was to make a character study about the effects of the Civil War on youth and a contemplation of what this American conflict meant in Ang Lee's eyes as he deliberately chose a story that stripped it down to neighbor vs. neighbor in Missouri. Cold Mountain was a movie made to win Oscars. At the end of the day Cold Mountain was an overdone melodramatic piece of Oscar bait, while Lee set out to make a legitimate movie made to provoke thought and not awards.
I am commenting because I see a misconception of RWTD in this thread. The movie is certainly following the lives of southern bushwackers, but the movie is not siding with Confederate sympathies. The title alone should be evidence of this. The movie is rather a depiction of the madness of a war that pitted neighbors and potential friends against each other over the politics of state governments in the south. There was no "yankee invasion" and it is merely a misconception to drive the young men to war. Like young men in any war the main characters side with where they geographically are or what their heritage seemingly dictates and ride into war. But there is little difference between them and the Union soldiers whose letters Jake and Holt read from.
The movie shows them losing their friends (Jack Bull and George) for a cause they do not even understand. They become disillusioned and lose their taste for war as they are horrified to see what the bushwackers have become in 1863 during the second act of the movie. This culminates in the climax of the movie when Quantrill plays the boys to join him on a possible suicide mission to raid a town "out of revenge" for a prison in Kansas city collapsing. So they raid, murder and pillage the town of Lawerence. Quantrill's speech evokes imagery from the title of the movie when he asks them to "ride with me." This is not unintentional. They are committing mass murder and Lee does not shy away from it. There is nothing heroic about them shooting unarmed men milking cows and executing towns people in front of their wives. The Mackinson character played by John Rheys-Myers is a complete sociopath on a bloodlust. I would bet he is fashioned after Jesse James, the bushwacker who too formed a gang after the war ended as he could not return to peace or civilized living and robbed from anyone (despite the myth), whatever their Civil War sympathies.
At the end Mackinson cannot let go of his hate that the war has instilled him with (and his brief taste of power) and will likely get himself killed. Jake will move on. Holt may have fought alongside the bushwackers but he was disgusted by many of them, including those who would scalp black men and use them as a form of currency. The scene where they are killing black children in Lawerence says it all. It does not shy away from the horrors of the war or that the root of it was truly slavery (despite what some people say in an attempt to white wash history). But it is saying these boys are no different than the Union boys and neither should be hated or admired. They should be pitied. Jake moves on after reaching this realization.
As for comparing it to Cold Mountain. Cold Mountain had its moments but was a silly romanticized Gone-with-the-Wind-wannabe of a film that pretended to be anti-war while glorifying its characters. Nicole Kidman was okay but forgettable in it (she's done better work), Renée Zellwigger did a role that screamed "I want an Oscar now!" and her pandering got it. Surprisingly the only lead performance that really felt genuine was that of Jude Law. The movie was stolen by a handful of supporting performances from Phillip Seymore-Hoffman, Natalie Portman, Brendan Gleeson and whoever played the leader of the home guard (I forget his name). In fact depicting their evil was the only thing I admired. They took an intelligent and sharp book's look at the war in North Carolina and turned it into a soap opera for Oscar season. This can be highlighted that while Lee chose to shoot in Missouri for his movie about the Missouri border conflict, Minghella shot his "epic" in Romania to get the rolling hills of the Applachain mountains by...filming the Carpathians.
Lee cast actors who gave subtle nuanced performances (even surprising turns like from Jewel). Especially Tobey Maguire and Jeffrey Wright's well grounded and believable performances. RWTD is just a good movie. Cold Mountain has good moments, but is too busy shopping for its gold awards.
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My previous post in this thread was writing about the events in the movie and not history and I will continue to do so below.
"I believe they understand it very well. Both their fathers are murdered at the hands of 'Union men."'
They knew they wanted revenge for the murder of Jack's father (and later Jake's), but the cause was not truly what they were fighting for. When a confederate soldier was captured (I believe from NC) and asked why he fights as his family was poor and owned no slaves by northern officers he replied "Because you're here." That is why Jake and Jack are fighting. They have sympathies to the Confederacy and saw Jayhawkers murder a father figure to both t he boys and burn Jack's house down. But neither really fought for the cause, but this was a neighbor vs. neighbor dispute. While it is obvious Lee admires the southerners defying the government and "imperialistic" tendencies of our country (albeit far less grand then), his point was these were boys. They had little comprehension of the politics behind the war or the philosophical understanding of it. That is what Mr. Evan explains to them and I think they had not pictured it that way. He tells them of the cause for the southern soldier fighting in the war, albeit not the political reasons and stances that led to war being the "answer" to this division. That wasn't the point of the movie, though. Mr. Evan was Lee's point of view of why so many believed in the war, but very few (including the main characters of this movie) really understood it. And that includes the ones doing all the fighting and dying and losing their innocence.
"Very incomplete and simplistic interpretation.
There was a lot more that went down the pike in the previous two years than just the KC Jail collapse- The sacking and burning of several towns in Missouri by Kansas Jayhawkers. 200 civilians (including women and children) killed and wounded by Federal troops in St. Louis, Mo."
I am aware of the large amounts of carnage and violence committed by both sides in the border war. I was simply listing the one given in the movie. In any case it was obviously just an excuse for Quantrill to rally the soldiers to follow him. It was a manipulation in the movie, if you will.
I see your main point of contention there was my not dwelling on the crimes committed by the Jayhawkers, but the Bushwackers were not very different from the Jayhawkers. That is why Jake and Holt become disillusioned and that is true. They have been away and after losing a dear friend saw how this war destroyed Sue Lee. And then they see a possible chance to live without the violence when offered to stay by the Browns but return to war. It is no longer a fun game and the tic-for-tac retribution killings they commit have worn on and just cost more life. Jack Bull is dead, it is no longer an adventure for Jake. Think about it. How is what they did at the beginning of the movie any different than what the Jayhawkers did to Evan or Jack's father? They killed the Union soldiers but then executed the store owner who served them, no different than Jack's father being executed for his southern sympathies. They then burn the wife's store (which even then Dutchie isn't completely comfortable with) and leave her nothing. If they had a son who hadn't gone to war, you can bet he'd become a Jayhawker after that and continue the violence and revenge-war (that never ends).
"But that is an aspect of this movie I don't like.
Violence committed by Southerners is very explicit...shown in detail.
That committed by Jayhawkers or Federal troops is very muted-
...only mentioned (KC jail collapse, murder of Jake's father, etc) or in the shadows (murder of Jack Bull Childs' father) or shown after the fact (Mr. Evans)...
-though the Jayhawkers and Feds murdered man for man...and then some. "
You dwell too much on the crimes of one side excusing the attrocities of the other. Lee is operating under the idea of "an eye for an eye and we all go blind." I tend to agree with that little proverb. Despite whatever crimes some residents of Lawerence did, sacking the town (even if Jayhawkers had done so earlier) does not make what the Bushwackers did right. Just the term "death list" is appalling. And with all the raiding going on you see much more than just "names being crossed off." Seeing men walk and shoot men under their wives or dragging them out of their homes for execution is a harrowing sight. No matter what, it doesn't matter which side you are on this was evil and Jake and Holt knew it. There was no real fight just murdering and stealing. Especially with sociopaths like Mackinson (I'm now convinced is based on Jesse James) there. He is just a bastard on a bloodlust and came in to murder those Inn owners where Jake and Holt were eating. This old man and young boy obviously were not raiding Jayhawkers, but the movie implies (rightly so) that on a blood high Mackinsons and Quantrills would kill any and all they could. When Big John finds out that he spared lives (those of non-Jayhawkers) he pulls a gun on Jake and asks if he is a traitor. This is what the war in Missouri was reduced to. Mass murder and whatever motive, Lee was saying it was wrong. The movie is titled Ride with the Devil because these men were riding into death and doing terrible things. Even if Lee sympathized with the Confederate cause he was not condoning the Bushwackers' action. Quantrill was the emboidment of manipulation and madness in the movie leading these boys to sacrifice their innocence to do these horrid acts. That is one of the mai nfocuses of the movie. Jake realizes this and gives it up and lives on as a better person, while madmen like Mackinson (and Quantrill and Jesse James for that matter) could not and they cannot live in peace after what they did in the war...they die.
Also, what did the black children that were murdered by the Bushwackers do to their families and why did they need their scalps and burn down the school?
I'm not disagreeing with you about the evils committed by Jayhawkers, but that does not excuse the same crimes done by Bushwackers in retaliation. And I'm talking about the point of the movie, not whether Lee was hostircally right to do so.
Good posts, dac. People who know a great deal about a given historical period often make this mistake when criticizing a film set in that period. These are movies, not documentaries; and as long as there's interior logic to a film, it doesn't matter if it's historically imprecise.
"The value of an idea has nothing to do with the honesty of the man expressing it."--Oscar Wilde
"The Mackinson character played by John Rheys-Myers is a complete sociopath on a bloodlust. I would bet he is fashioned after Jesse James, the bushwacker who too formed a gang after the war ended as he could not return to peace or civilized living and robbed from anyone (despite the myth), whatever their Civil War sympathies."
Actually, the Mackinson character was based on Archie Clements, a guerilla fighter who was an absolute sociopath. He was known variously as "Little Archie", because of his short stature, or "Grinning Archie" due to his macabre habit of killing with a smile on his face. Archie Clements was a sociopath who seemed to take great pleasure in killing and scalping his victims. He was killed in Lexington, Missouri while riding his horse down what is now Franklin Avenue by a sheriff's deputy firing from the second floor of the Lafayette County Courthouse. (Also known as the "Cannonball Courthouse" because a cannon ball struck one of its large front columns during the Battle of Lexington in September of 1861.) While you are correct in saying that Jesse James was a bushwhacker who formed a gang after the Civil War, he was not nearly the murderous sociopath that Archie Clements was. For more information on Quantrill's Raiders, including Archie Clements, I recommend the excellent book "The Devil Knows How To Ride" by Edward E. Leslie.