MovieChat Forums > Ride with the Devil (1999) Discussion > Many questions...

Many questions...

posted 16 years ago by Adams5905
8 replies | jump to latest

I finally managed to watch the whole of this movie from beginning to end last night (on British Film4), unlike all my previous attempts, where I have missed either the beginning or end...And I was extremely impressed by the fluid narrative, by the authenticity (as an amateur Civil War enthusiast, although most familiar with the Eastern front, I can speak with some authority), and although I did have a number of questions which were subsequently answered, I'm still a little puzzled:

1. When Jake is railroaded into marrying Sue Lee by Mr & Mrs Brown (and presumably with the connivance of Daniel Holt), we know that he is fully aware of her history, i.e. that she was briefly married to Evans junior, and that she enjoyed a (curtailed) sexual liaison with Jack Bull Chiles (a name I find hard to swallow, being so very similar to John Bull, a fictional character irrevocably associated with English folklore, which people at the time would most certainly have been aware of, and therefore reluctant to name their (American) children, remember, this is only some 50 years after the USA's last war with GB), which resulted in the birth of Grace (Shelley Chiles), but how much do the Browns' know or suspect? Are they forcing him to marry her because they believe the baby to be his own? Or simply to 'legitimize' her status in the eyes of the community?

2. Jake's personal weapons appear to be:
(i) A black & gold (brass) long-barrelled navy repeating revolver, which was only presented upon their retirement to senior Naval personnel, and
(ii) A lever action repeating brass plated rifle, which would not have been available to him until at least 1866 (too late)...
Anybody have any ideas on how he could have gotten hold of these guns, or could it simply be a genuine mistake on the filmmakers' part?

3. I seem to recall from a previous viewing that at some point in the film we see Missourian families attacked by Kansas Redlegs, as well as on other occasions by Jayhawkers, and of course Bluebellies, but I appear to have blinked and missed this incident in last night's viewing, which leads me to suspect that the version(s) I have watched may have been re-edited to suit. Does anyone else remember this?

4. From my own research material (most of which is derived from Yankee sources), it would appear that the filmmakers have confused the term 'Bushwhacker' with 'Border Ruffian'. Those irregular militia fighting for the Confederacy against the Federals were known as 'Border Ruffians' (although confusingly, so were their opposite numbers, as well as the more derogatory term, 'Jayhawkers'). The term 'Bushwhackers' was used to describe those gangs, ostensibly fighting for either side, who were in reality no more than opportunist border raiders, and who did not discriminate whom they attacked: Good Southern Men, or Abolitionists, in fact some of these gangs consisted of deserters and men from both sides. This is what Pitt Mackeson eventually becomes (although with his hatred of all thing Yankee, I'm certain that the gang he led would only have consisted of Southern Gentlemen), but only after the dissolving of the original guerrilla forces under 'Black John', William Quantrill, et al.
Jake refers to himself and his cohorts several times, while in service, however, as 'Bushwhackers', and to his long hair as his "Bushwhacker's Curls". This is incorrect.

5. Finally: during the (rather superficially covered) raid led by Quantrill on Lawrence, Jake, Daniel, and a number of others are shown enjoying breakfast while the remaining guerrillas loot the town outside. Is this not a sly reference to Quantrill himself? Have I not read somewhere that he breakfasted while his 'troops' slaughtered the menfolk outside, once he had discovered that James H. Lane, his most implacable enemy, had in fact fled the town shortly before his arrival, clad only in his nightshirt!

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...

[–] 16 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Ace_Moonshot 16 years ago

1. When Jake is railroaded into marrying Sue Lee by Mr & Mrs Brown (and presumably with the connivance of Daniel Holt), we know that he is fully aware of her history, i.e. that she was briefly married to Evans junior, and that she enjoyed a (curtailed) sexual liaison with Jack Bull Chiles (a name I find hard to swallow, being so very similar to John Bull, a fictional character irrevocably associated with English folklore, which people at the time would most certainly have been aware of, and therefore reluctant to name their (American) children, remember, this is only some 50 years after the USA's last war with GB), which resulted in the birth of Grace (Shelley Chiles), but how much do the Browns' know or suspect? Are they forcing him to marry her because they believe the baby to be his own? Or simply to 'legitimize' her status in the eyes of the community?

I think it twofold. One, they see he'd make a good husband. Two, legitimacy.

2. Jake's personal weapons appear to be:
(i) A black & gold (brass) long-barrelled navy repeating revolver, which was only presented upon their retirement to senior Naval personnel, and
(ii) A lever action repeating brass plated rifle, which would not have been available to him until at least 1866 (too late)...
Anybody have any ideas on how he could have gotten hold of these guns, or could it simply be a genuine mistake on the filmmakers' part?

I have not watched the movie in some time so I am not 100% sure of the revolver he'd have carried but I seem to recall quite well it was a Remington New Model Army 44. But the rifle would be a Henry. They were around from the beginning of the war. It would have been a prized and coveted long gun. The Spencer repeating rifle was made in larger quantities, (my grandfather wielded one at the Battle of Franklin) but the Henry was known. Mostly the weapon was purchased by Union officers etc until later in the war. The military high command had the notion that if you gave the soldier too much firepower he'd use up powder faster than they could produce it. But southern soldiers prized it as a spoil of war that you could 'load on Sunday and shoot all week long.'

3. I seem to recall from a previous viewing that at some point in the film we see Missourian families attacked by Kansas Redlegs, as well as on other occasions by Jayhawkers, and of course Bluebellies, but I appear to have blinked and missed this incident in last night's viewing, which leads me to suspect that the version(s) I have watched may have been re-edited to suit. Does anyone else remember this?

Not specifically. Sorry.

4. From my own research material (most of which is derived from Yankee sources), it would appear that the filmmakers have confused the term 'Bushwhacker' with 'Border Ruffian'. Those irregular militia fighting for the Confederacy against the Federals were known as 'Border Ruffians' (although confusingly, so were their opposite numbers, as well as the more derogatory term, 'Jayhawkers'). The term 'Bushwhackers' was used to describe those gangs, ostensibly fighting for either side, who were in reality no more than opportunist border raiders, and who did not discriminate whom they attacked: Good Southern Men, or Abolitionists, in fact some of these gangs consisted of deserters and men from both sides. This is what Pitt Mackeson eventually becomes (although with his hatred of all thing Yankee, I'm certain that the gang he led would only have consisted of Southern Gentlemen), but only after the dissolving of the original guerrilla forces under 'Black John', William Quantrill, et al.
Jake refers to himself and his cohorts several times, while in service, however, as 'Bushwhackers', and to his long hair as his "Bushwhacker's Curls". This is incorrect.

Can't really comment as I do not specifically recall that dialogue in the film.

5. Finally: during the (rather superficially covered) raid led by Quantrill on Lawrence, Jake, Daniel, and a number of others are shown enjoying breakfast while the remaining guerrillas loot the town outside. Is this not a sly reference to Quantrill himself? Have I not read somewhere that he breakfasted while his 'troops' slaughtered the menfolk outside, once he had discovered that James H. Lane, his most implacable enemy, had in fact fled the town shortly before his arrival, clad only in his nightshirt!

I have not heard of the meal but why not? They'd have been hungry and yes, Lane did bugger off in his nightshirt. The raid itself was a legitimate reprisal raid. What I mean is the target and the timing were carefully planned. Lawrence for a whole host of reasons and the plan was to lure Lane into a trap. Lane being one of the major causes of the entire border wars. The man did more to stir up hate and war mongering than 2 John Brown's. He was a much desired target especially after the war started.

Why settle for the lesser of two evils? Vote Cthulhu!

[–] britwrit 14 years ago

"...Mostly the weapon was purchased by Union officers etc until later in the war. The military high command had the notion that if you gave the soldier too much firepower he'd use up powder faster than they could produce it..."

Thanks for the great answer. Wow - did they also factor in that they might have to spend more on wages if they gave soldiers a deadlier weapon (and thus might inconveniently keep breathing longer?)

[–] Androctus 16 years ago

1) All of the above. I think they knew the child wasn't Jake's (She did name it Chiles) but at the same time they didn't want to see her go through th agony of raising a child out of wedlock (lot harder on the conscious back then than it is today) or see the child labeled a bastard for that matter. At the same time, I'm sure another factor is they just wanted to get her out of the house, lol.

2) The pistol is a 1858 Remington New Army with a brass frame, which in and of itself is an anomoly. While commonplace for Confederate manufactureer's to reproduce union pistols, substituting brass wherever possible (steel was in short supply, the Confederates only major source of manufacture being Tredegar Iron Works in Richmond)the most common knock-off was the '51 Colt Navy. There is not much evidence to support the Confederates ever reproduced a Remington New Army in brass or otherwise, because the Colt Navy was much easier to reproduce, cheaper and required less material than the solid single piece top-strap frame of the Remington. Nor for that matter, is there much indication that Remington ever reproduced a New Army using a brass frame either(If someone out there knows, I'd like to also) Likely the production designers' only intent was to represent a pistol of Confederate manufacture by using a brass piece.

The Henry Rifle is correct and commercially available before the war began. While never really formally adopted by the US Army (They eventually favored the Spencer for cavalry use) the Henry did in fact find more acceptance out west. If memory serves, there were actually a few Illinois volunteer infantry units who armed themseves with Henrys at their own expense.

3) I watched this on AMC the other night and did in fact notice that scenes had been cut out to make it fill the time slot, so you are probably correct. In my viewed I noticed the notorious "I'd be a myterious gob of rot... why that's nubbin fingered Jake Rodell" conversation with Jack had been omitted.

[–] rooee 16 years ago

With regard to question 1, I think one must consider the scene when Sue Lee is being "romantic" with (i.e. lying to) Jake under the porch. He makes a flippant comment about her being "bad luck"; she concedes this to be true, even when he apologises. I think perhaps, in a time of uncertainty and death, Jake is seen as representing the flip side of the luck coin - and he's made a full recovery to prove it.

[–] Ezekiel_Stone 15 years ago

About 3,I've got the dvd and i remember seeing redlegs at Jack Bull Chileses house when they shot his father.

[–] lambrettaguy200 15 years ago

Hi

Many years ago, I do recall seeing a photo in one of my ACW reference books of a number of Union soldiers from a Western regiment, late in the war, all holding Henry rifles.

"S h i t happens in mysterious ways, its wonders to perform"

[–] Samoan Bob 14 years ago

1. Jack Bull is supposed to come from an English family. I haven't read the book the film's based on, but that's what Schamus says on the Criterion commentary.

4. While people from both sides of the conflict were known as Bushwhackers, the term became most closely associated with the Missouri guerillas on the Confederate side. The term is used accurately in the film.

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