Why this film suffered so badly... - Wing Commander (1999) Discussion

[–] morbelle 18 years ago

What traitor subplot? Does anyone have any info on this, as it sounds like it could be quite interesting.

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[–] awesomead 18 years ago

The traitor subplot was included in the novelization so you can pick up a cheap copy if you are interested.

Basically there was a pilgrim traitor onboard Pegasus as well as on the Tiger Claw. Blair's holographic sidekick merlin detects a signal from the concom that happens to be an old pilgrim code. Eventually during the raid to get power cells, Blair tracks the signal again. a lot of action was cut there. At one point he grenades the bridge to stop them from self destructing. And then he confronts Gerald who thinks he's the traitor and eventually kills the actual traitor in a knife fight with his pilgrim cross (hence why Paladin gives him his later and why blairs hand is cut). THere's also some minor scenes about a tattoo on paladin's neck (still visible in the movie) which apparently was from some kind of Kilrathi POW camp. IT's hard to say if the sequence was completed effects-wise but there is also a scene where Paladin ejects from the Broadsword after his torpedo salvo on the Kilrathi Capship. Blair is supposed to tractor him in his Rapier. (According the the confed handbook the older CF rapiers have tractor beams) That's why paladin is standing there bleeding after maniac lands when rosie crashes.

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[–] TopGunSGA 18 years ago

Yeah, I want to see the scenes back in the movie

One of the reasons they were cut was that the preview audiance didn't understand the subplot, idiots

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[–] awesomead 18 years ago

Well, part of the reason might have been that, during shooting, they decided (though they apparently filmed the movie to include it) to drop Merlin as a holographic sidekick. So most of the lines were altered to be from the ship computer. I believe Mark Hamil would have played the Hologram too but As such he's now just the voice of the computer. Merlin was key in helping blair discover the Pilgrim signal emanating from the tiger claw and key to why Blair leaves his gunnery post in the Diligents turret during the comcon boarding to enter the fray and find the traitor. I think that the movie would have worked without it, but I understand why it's possible it may have been confusing. People got to the end of the film and couldn't remember why or who this new traitor character on the kilrathi ship was.

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[–] awesomead 18 years ago

There are bits of this left in though... At one point, sansky is looking at a picture of himself and admiral wilson from (IIRC) back in their academy days together. During the first big battle, before the main rapier squadron (including angel, blair, maniac, rosie and paladin) returns and just as he's hesitating on the "raise shields" order Sansky can be seen thumbing a pilgrim cross. And a number of other scenes are edited around bits from the traitor stuff. There's one very very horrible edit after rosie dies that should have been where a scene with a traitor on one of the kilrathi ships would have played. It also justifies to a small degree peoples aprehension regarding Blair's heritage if they're legitimately concerned about there being a traitor on board. And of course I already mentioned how much of a mess the Comcon boarding scene is in the theatrical cut of the movie...

Apparently a workprint of the movie does exist (in fact we're pretty sure where it is) but the trick is getting access to it or to be able to arrange to see it. I don't think it does, but, it would be interesting to see if the workprint has the holographic merlin stuff left in or not. I *think* it doesn't, but it does for certain have all the traitor subplot in. We're pretty sure they filmed the movie to allow for it... FPJ made comments at one point about having to work with a doll (the stand-in for the CG hologram).

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] gladrius 18 years ago

Wing Commander the game wasn't good anymore anyway after they made it FMV, this movie didn't help.

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[–] mikemann 17 years ago

WC3 and WC4 were still superb games. The only point I agree on is that Prophecy wasn't that great.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] lakic_matija 17 years ago

Agree... And who the hell put a Freddy Prinzie in a Sci-fi action movie??? That's like putting a Rob Schneider into Hamlet role!

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[–] awesomead 17 years ago

Well, to be fair, no one really knew who FPJ was when they made the movie. It was filmed *before* She's All That but She's All That came out first and just happened to be a hit.

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[–] JackTorrance1990 17 years ago

Two reasons why it sucked:

1.they took a possibly good idea and turned it into a teen film
2.first-time director with no experience in film whatsoever

The Godfather Part II:Greatest Ever

We're gonna raise more hell than Hellraiser.

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[–] awesomead 17 years ago

I somewhat agree with the teen movie part, but again, while I don't really agree with some of the director's decisions, I can't say the directing is more at fault than the dialogue, and editing.

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[–] awesomead 17 years ago

Bit of an update... We actually have the deleted scenes now. We're just working on a way for people to see them. There is *a lot* of different stuff. Bits of scenes extra. Sometimes it's even just a line of dialogue here or there that improves stuff, and sequences that are missing entirely from the final cut. Plus some scenes are alternate because the theatrical version shifted them around and ADRed awful dialogue over the ok stuff to mask the shifting. The biggest issue with the rough cut is that it just goes on too long after the climax... theres just too many things that don't need to be there. They shouldn't really have bothered with the skipper missile and the angel ejection pod scene can be completely dropped without hurting the film one bit. It actually speeds up the race for the jump point quite a bit. And the snakier getting eaten by Scylla is kind of unneccessary but at least it has a good counterpoint at the start of the film.

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[–] hutt359 17 years ago

That's very cool news.

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[–] nmitsialis 17 years ago

awsomead:

So does that mean they are going to release a 're-edited' version of this flick?

TiA

NM

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[–] mike_71 17 years ago

sweet about the deleted scenes, put it up on a torrent. i doubt they care (its not like they can possibly be making money from this anymore :) )

and what is this scene you speak of when he "boards the comcon" i dont remember seeing him EVER board an enemy ship, once, they ran from the comcon, thats it.

unless your talking about the workprint.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] awesomead 17 years ago

and what is this scene you speak of when he "boards the comcon" i dont remember seeing him EVER board an enemy ship, once, they ran from the comcon, thats it.
unless your talking about the workprint.

the ship they board for fuel cells is the same concom they ran from earlier in the movie

The inclusion of the traitor plot would not save this movie. The main thing this movie needed was a big battle but it never got it. We were all but promised a huge star ship battle in Earth space only to have it end up that the Kilrathi come through one at a time. It made the ending incredibly anti-climatic.

Part of the reason it's anticlimactic is that they cut out the climax with the traitor subplot. I'm not saying it would be a perfect movie with it by any means but the showdown on the Concom is a big elaborate combat sequence culminating in Blair grenading the bridge. followed by a knife fight between Gerald and Blair after which the Traitor is knifed and then another grenade goes off. This is entirely hacked out and little incoherent bits are left in the movie to make that one brief boarding scene. That was basically the climax of the movie and what ends up happening is that the denouement just goes on too long after that, even in the workprint. The pace picks up considerably with just dropping stuff like the Blair/angel lifepod scene. THere's other improvements too in the workprint though. THere's a bunch of good lines that were cut and some scenes just work better. Seriously, they hacked up some scenes and moved stuff around and then ADRed over it to make the dialogue work so the workprint just sounds and flows more naturally.

I agree that there perhaps should have been a bigger battle at the very end, but I do also believe that the *Race to Sol* aspect of the ending might have worked better if the original climax was left in place.

Ultimately what it really needed was a finaly pass on the script though to tighten up the ending and clean up the dialogue. THere is seriously just too much stuff that happens after what should be the climax. When the traitor subplot is in pretty much all the character issues come to a head in that fight scene and then all that is left to do is to confront Sansky and get to sol to warn the fleet... But then there's a skipper missile, big battle with the tiger claw and the kilrathi, a touchy feely scene in a lifepod, Scylla, blair runs out of gas.. Some of that is fine if it had been tightened up a bit.

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[–] nickm2 17 years ago

**btt**

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[–] awesomead 17 years ago

So does that mean they are going to release a 're-edited' version of this flick?

THat would be nice. Fox was aproached about it a while back but they weren't interested in spending the 5 million or so that was probably needed to finish the effects in the extra scenes and to pay for all the re-editing and other post work that would need done. What's more, Fox's home video side seems to have a grudge against the movie for no readily aparent reason. The region1 DVD is decidely short on extras and not 16x9 enhanced and they refused to re=release it... even though it made back a considerable amount on DVD sales and rentals, to the point of being profitable.

Hopefully there'll be a blu-ray release soon but I won't hold my breath on a special edition or anything. Plus I believe FOX only has the rights to the theatrical version... At one point one of the heads of Digital Anvil mentioned that DA Retained the rights to the negatives (and or any other cut of the film).

Probably the first you will see of the scenes will be the individual deleted scenes for download or something. It might not be everything though as so much of the movie was cut that there almost isn't a scene where there isn't at least one line extra. There's litterally nearly 30 to 40 minutes of new footage (estimated... I don't have an exact figure though it could be less I suppose but the point is that there is a lot of extra stuff).

Eventually I hope to integrate the scenes into my DVD copy but I don't know that that will be something that could be put online. As for the whole workprint? THat's a wait and see kind of thing. It all depends on how it goes with the individual scenes first.

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[–] hutt359 17 years ago

awesomead,

If you don't know about it, you should take a look at www.fanedit.org

I'm sure they'd be willing, and the place, to put something like the restored work print up online...

I know I would love to see it. I've always liked this movie, and would love to see the work print.

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[–] awesomead 17 years ago

It isn't so much a matter of server space though, But it is an interesting option. The only thing about my own edit will be that I'm a little limited in ability. I'm no expert so I probably won't be remixing any sound or anything but I can certainly add in songs from the soundtrack.

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[–] hutt359 17 years ago

The fanedit community has a forum, and they seem more than willing to offer any assistance in learning how to do fan edits... A link to their forum can be found on the web site I mentioned above.

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[–] 17 years ago

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[–] cubdukat 17 years ago

I'll tell you why it turned me off. It seemed to me like it just abandoned the entire "Wing Commander" universe. Not to mention the casting stunk. I suppose Tcheky Karyo's a good actor, but I always thought they'd pick someone closer to Paladin's ethnicity--like maybe Sean Connery or even John Rhys-Davies.

And the Kilrathi as lizards and not cats--what the hey?

Add in a first-time director and you have the perfect recipe for a total mess.

I have to wonder if the reason they changed things up so much was because of the breakup with Origin. Maybe Roberts couldn't use what he'd created because they still owned it.

But still, this should be a textbook example of why you don't let game designers or directors of Madonna videos (especially if their name is David Fincher) direct multi-million dollar films their first time out.

"Now, that is one nutty hospital!"

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[–] hutt359 17 years ago

The kilarthi were feline, where the heck do you get lizards from?

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[–] awesomead 17 years ago

It's partly because they don't appear to have fur in the movie... There are some with some facial hair in the movie, and again they actually appear more Cat-like in the workprint. Beacause of the extended scenes aboard the kilrathi ships we get to see more of their movements and stuff. And there's also things on their ship like a Sivar Idol. Part of the design of the movie kilrathi was that they were like Samauri, so the plated armor they wear is a reflection of that.

Yes, the animatronics didn't quite work out properly in their movements and ultimately they actually used CGI to redo their lip momevent and paint everything in green fog, But you get a better sense of what they were aiming for in the workprint.

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[–] Gamegeek 17 years ago

No it failed cause it had a low budget, really really poor advertising, video games adaptions always fail, episode 1 was coming out the same time, & average movie goer sucks.

--------------------
From Serenity:Define interesting...Oh God, oh God,we're all going to die?

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[–] awesomead 17 years ago

it failed cause it had a low budget, really really poor advertising...

I think (aside from the kilrathi) the production quality and effects quality for the year it was made is pretty impressive for the budget. But there was very little to no advertising campaign. Other than a few TV spots the week before it premiered and rumors that the phantom menace trailer would be attached there was pretty much nothing. (I think Freddy Prinze Jr. did do a few talk shows though and was on CNN for sure... that I remember)

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[–] hutt359 15 years ago

So, awesomead...

Any news on that work print? ;)

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[–] awesomead 15 years ago

Nothing new to report on... We aren't able to release anything at the moment, but we did put up a rundown of a number of the missing scenes with screenshots here: http://www.wcnews.com/articles/movie_cuts.shtml

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[–] hutt359 15 years ago

Cool, I was unaware of that page. I'm happy to get anything though.

I still hold out hope for a directors cut of this movie someday.

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[–] The_Proprietor 15 years ago

The traitorous men were Admiral Wilson and Captain Sansky where it's confirmed at least one of them (the former) is a Pilgrim. Does that mea Captain Sansky was a Pilgrim too? Unless Captain Sansky was such a loyal friend to Admiral Wilson he'd follow him to whatever end.

If impersonating a Police Officer is an offence, shouldn't actors be imprisoned?

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[–] awesomead 15 years ago

Does that mea Captain Sansky was a Pilgrim too? Unless Captain Sansky was such a loyal friend to Admiral Wilson he'd follow him to whatever end.

It seems Sansky is a Pilgrim too. Though he never states it outright, there's a few clues in the film that tell us this. In the theatrical cut, during the first Kilrathi attack on the Tiger Claw (where Sansky is injured) we see him hesitate on a "shields up" order. His mind seems elsewhere and if you pause the film you can see he's holding a pilgrim cross.

Later, in the workprint and Novel, when Sansky is confronted about being a traitor (just as he poisons himself) he talks about it being a role he was "born for" suggesting his being a traitor was out of duty to his heritage.

Moreover, the traitor signal comming from the claw that is picked up early on by blair/merlin when Blair and Angel first encounter the Concom is a Pilgrim signal of some sort (ULF). I would suggest that the evidence is high that Sansky is also a Pilgrim and not just someone who was brainwashed by Adm. Wilson into following his cause.

On the other hand, when Paladin is asked if he thinks Sansky is actually a Pilgrim his response is "who knows." Sansky is in a bunch of pictures with Adm. Wilson. They apparently were in the same graduating class at the academy.
There's a flashback in the novelization (p134) that indicates that their enrolement was part of their infiltration plan all along. Their whole careers were based on a lie. The flashbacks also speak of their Motives. Sansky seems to be set in the "pilgrims inherit the stars" idea futher suggesting he really is a Pilgrim (not sure we can see it any other way). Wilson seems to still have a beef with Humanity, though his motives seem more abstract, as if humanity is holding back the evolution of Pilgrims to something greater.

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[–] The_Proprietor 15 years ago

Thank you . You cleared it all up for me and it must be the case that Sansky was a Pilgrim.

Does the novel go into detail on how Christopher Blair's parent met? Pilgrims and average humans mixing would be a rarity I imagine.

If impersonating a Police Officer is an offence, shouldn't actors be imprisoned?

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[–] awesomead 15 years ago

I don't think it has much detail on how they met, but it was before the Confed/Pilgrim war broke out.

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[–] garbage_day1987 15 years ago

it suffered because the actors sucked dick.

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[–] stark-1 14 years ago

No it failed cause it had a low budget, really really poor advertising, video games adaptions always fail, episode 1 was coming out the same time, & average movie goer sucks.

I'd say Episode 1 actually helped it since many people bought tickets specifically to see the Episode 1 preview that was first released with this movie.

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[–] wallacesawyer 11 years ago

Some questionable casting, for example Matthew Lillard is cringe worthy.

Poor special effects.

Little to no screen time for the alien villains, but then again is this a good or bad thing considering how silly they look?

I heard about the traitor subplot. But without it Gerald's constant pregidous is irritating. And a lot of secondary characters annoy me enough as it is.

Was the pilgrim supernatural psychic ability necessary? I find it ironic this inserted supernatural elements while STAR WARS EPISODE 1 tried to make the Force more scientific based.

http://www.freewebs.com/demonictoys/

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[–] awesomead 11 years ago

Was the pilgrim supernatural psychic ability necessary? I find it ironic this inserted supernatural elements while STAR WARS EPISODE 1 tried to make the Force more scientific based.

The thing was, it wasn't supposed to be supernatural (But the writer was obviously channeling Star Wars when writing the script). There was at least one line missing in the theatrical cut where Paladin is explaining to Blair about Pilgrims... Basically Blair's navigational skills are a genetic mutation where he's able to sense miniscule changes in gravitic fields. It's pseudo science for sure (though it's been proven that some animals can sense magnetic fields).

In the script Blair was also suppose to lose his blade in a knife fight. When Blair is about to leave for the jump to sol and talks to Paladin about "not having the faith" and paladin replies "it's not faith, it's genetics" the meaning is lost because in the threatrical cut we never see Blair lose his knife (and attachment to his past). It just comes across as hokey reassurance... (oh hey, by the way, I'm a pilgrim toooo!).

As far as super powers go, feeling gravity and electromagnetic fields is pretty low on the scale of super fun magic tricks though. He can do fast jump trajectory calculations in his head because... he can recalibrate the headings on the fly when the ship shifts. The movie dialogue and plot make a big deal about it because the plot necessitates that Blair be the one to save the day as opposed to it being some terribly awful addition that ruins the WC universe.

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[–] meslon 11 years ago

Because it was a substandard piece of garbage would be my guess.

There is another reality...NEVERWHERE

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[–] msfproductions 11 years ago

LOL. Hobbs would have been a nice addition to the film. Even though he does not come in till
th e 2nd game.

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