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Here's why the OT saber fights are far superior (long read)

posted 8 years ago by MirkoS
6 replies | jump to latest

tl;dr-last paragraph.

The saber fights were better in the OT simply because they were the products of competent cinema. When viewed in overall context, the battles were much more relevant and impactful in the original films because they were a means to an end, not the end in and of themselves.

All the fights in the OT held narrative gravitas. They were the culmination and climax of brilliantly escalated tension. For example, look at Luke against Vader in V....that fight was amazing because Luke knew he was going into a losing battle. He knew he wasn’t ready. He knew he was walking into a trap that would likely result in his death, yet he went for his friends. Everything he had been told by Obi; the belief that Vader had murdered his father, his training with Yoda, watching Obi get murdered in front of him. On top of this you had Vader’s reveal. Or in VI. Luke attempting to save his father, Vader’s sacrifice and ultimate redemption borne out of love for his son seen through the greatest of evils. I’ll admit that the final duel in III was somewhat better as it was Anakin’s turning and Obi mourning his death, but even still, the poor script, acting, lack of chemistry, laughable dialogue….everything preceding it robbed that scene of any real impact. I felt nothing at a part in the saga that should’ve been the most heartbreaking.

The prequel battles were predicated upon poor film-making, and they needed to do something to compensate for that insufficiency: namely….flashy choreography. An amusement park ride void of any substance in the attempt to distract us from the real issue: that these are **** movies in all respects.

There is also much to be said for subtlety in the execution of dramatic release. The fights in the originals ebb and flow. In V, Luke eagerly turns on his saber at the start. Vader slowly does his, contemptuously, showing himself the veteran. Luke moves in, testing Vader's space. He makes a second strike with force, with Vader dismissively pushing him off with only one arm. In the prequels, when they are swinging 10,000 m.p.h in every direction, sabers clashing five times a second from start to finish without nary a breather, there is no room for dramatic flow to play on the audiences’ expectations or desires….to explore the nuances of the encounter and emotions that the characters have grown with throughout the films. It was all spectacle, and when everything's spectacle....nothing is.

I’d even go so far as to argue that the way they fought in the prequels was inconsistent with the mythos in general. Lightsabers are supposedly “elegant weapons of a more civilized age”. Lethality in grace. Yet they are spun around like some cheap glow stick baton that a high school cheerleader would twirl. Superfluous nonsense, no economy of movement, completely implausible for the fiction they reside in. These weapons are representations of their masters, professionals, and it detracts from their elegance and the belief that they are something not to be trifled with. Yes, the choreography in the OT is not the best at times, but you get the general gist that remained consistent with the lightsaber’s opening description in IV. What the prequels did to the sabers was akin to turning the elegance and beauty of a sniper’s shot into an assault rifle sprayed in fifty directions.

tl;dr: The prequel saber fights suck because 1) poor film-making could not support them, 2) they didn’t allow for any dramatic interplay as they were always a spectacle, and 3) they weren’t consistent about what we’d been told about the lightsabers up until that point.

[–] Kruleworld 8 years ago

I disagree. the fights in the PT are one of the few highlights, and rightly show the Jedi at the height of their skill and prestige. They were also young and vigorous unlike when Ben and Vader meet for their final battle are actually getting too old for this sort of thing.

The prequels needed to be a spectacle to reflect it's massive budget and the choreography is one are that delivered. Sure it's implausible and bordering on the ridiculous, but that's the world they are in. If you have the ability to 'magic' your jumps up to 20 times your own height, then your fights should also be far more extravagant. They could have done what Japanese cinema does and have them fighting as they float through the air as if gravity means nothing.

"He's dusted, busted and disgusted, but he's ok"

[–] d_myerss 8 years ago

I agree.

I give credit to the work that went into the prequel choreography. I can only imagine an untold amount of effort went into it, but in the end it just looks silly imo.

I don't really understand the goal of the combatants. When they're taking out droids, deflecting blaster fire and the like, it looks fairly elegant (with a few exceptions) but then they face off against other force users, I'm baffled at their attacks. It looks as though they are actively trying to clash blades as opposed to attacking and defending.

I used to imagine it may be due to the two fighters being able to see things before they happen, but really that doesn't explain why they're clashing blades as often as possible.

[–] RougeBleu 8 years ago

It is amazing how people who dislike something can go to great lengths to explain something and yet sound completely ridiculous.

Whether you like PT battles or not is your choice, but writing something like this is more like you are trying to convince yourself that PT battles are bad. It is funny really. How you feel about something and actual quality of it are two different things.

Bottom line is that you really don't understand the difference in point between OT and PT battles.

Like someone said you can't expect that old Ben and Vader, who is half machine, fight the same way as 23 year old Anakin and 30 something Obi-Wan. They train their whole life, and that was established even in OT (Luke being too old), so it is quite expected for them to have certain skills.

As for drama, there is plenty of it if, especially in TPM and ROTS. Oh and how did you say, there was no breather. I guess you didn't watch TPM then, or simply decided that you won't mention the facts because they don't support your post.

And in the end, inconsistency. I get that everything else you wrote is because you weren't really thinking logically and as an unbiased person. But this... So for the whole elegant weapon for more civilized age. Jedi were keepers of piece. Before the CW there were thousands of Jedi keeping piece in the Galaxy. That is what I would call civilized age. Them having fighting skills is not inconsistency, their style of fight is also not inconsistency. It is simply different.

So next time when you are trying to write why something is good or bad, look at the pros and cons. Especially if you are comparing it to something else. Also try thinking about why was something done the way it is and not just dismissing it and saying yeah it is different, I hate it and that is why it sucks.

“Your focus determines your reality.”

[–] MirkoS 8 years ago

Replies like this always amuse me. It's never addressing the argument and always inevitably whittles down to an attack on the arguer. Don't presume to instruct me on proper posting etiquette, or under what rationale I made (or should've) made it. Who do you think you are??

I don't need to convince myself of anything nor require your approval, I'm 100% secure in my position, thanks, and it is very well considered with an open mind. I fully understand the differences between the PT fights and the OT ones, and if you'd actually taken the time to think over my post you'd realize that none of what I'd wrote can exist without contrast and context as to what I disagree with in the prequels. It depends on that, and how you can miss that, I don't understand. But to humor you, let's take into account the few points that you brought up in rebuttal, for what they're worth:

1) "Like someone said you can't expect that old Ben and Vader, who is half machine, fight the same way as 23 year old Anakin and 30 something Obi-Wan. They train their whole life, and that was established even in OT (Luke being too old), so it is quite expected for them to have certain skills."

.....which explains why Yoda, hundreds of years old (which effectively renders him about as useful in dexterity as someone who's a machine at that age), was able to wield a lightsaber as agile as he did in the PT? I'm sure the Force had nothing to do with his abilities, right? This is an inconsistency that's yet to be explained to me, so have at it.

2) "As for drama, there is plenty of it, especially in TPM and ROTS."

....and where did I say there wasn't? If anything, pertaining to drama I argued that there was no dramatic ebb and flow to the fights. You disagree? Then provide me examples (as I did) so we may take this further instead of just a "no, you're wrong, this is the way it is", throwaway narrative. Sorry, you don't convince me, and I don't find your attempt satisfies. At best, it's a pathetic attempt at a rebuttal.

3) "Jedi were keepers of piece. Before the CW there were thousands of Jedi keeping piece in the Galaxy. That is what I would call civilized age. Them having fighting skills is not inconsistency, their style of fight is also not inconsistency. It is simply different."

First of all, it's peace, not "piece". Pieces are concrete, peace is abstract. Secondly, I'm speaking in the micro, not the macro. This does not encompass greater context, which makes me suspect you've not read what I wrote. It focuses on the implementation of the lightsabers in an individualistic sense, not what they (or the Jedi) represent as a collective. I'm focusing simply on the weapon and the manner in which it's used.

So yea....next time when you are trying to respond to someone's post, actually read what they are writing and respond accordingly, or don't bother wasting my time. You spent far too much effort writing more than was necessary to say essentially nothing.

[–] RougeBleu 8 years ago

You are cute. Not my fault you don't know how to do proper analysis

And you are reaching. Yoda is not human, Ben and Vader were. It is not inconsistency if you think about it. Nowhere in OT was said that Yoda doesn't fight, even while he 800 years old. People just assumed that and didn't like when their little bubble was burst.

As for your second point. You complained that there is not breathing room and no drama in battles, and this is a post about battles mostly, so yeah I didn't think I had to be that detailed. What I meant is that there are drama moments and breathers, as you called it, in battles in TMP and ROTS. In TPM when they are waiting for those doors to open, during the battle and in ROTS right before Anakin jumps. It is quite dramatic actually, especially if you don't know what is gonna happen. Those are just two examples I gave without even thinking about it too much.

Third, I know the difference, It was more of a typo, no need to give me lesions. And once again you are basing your arguments on what you assumed is the correct way to use lightsabers in individual battles, even though once again nowhere in the movies was said or even implied that battles can't be the way they are in PT. Lightsabers being an elegant weapon doesn't really exclude flashy and fast battles.

“Your focus determines your reality.”

[–] LostKiera 8 years ago

This is a well argued post, but I feel I have to disagree.

In the prequels, when they are swinging 10,000 m.p.h in every direction, sabers clashing five times a second from start to finish without nary a breather, there is no room for dramatic flow to play on the audiences’ expectations or desires….to explore the nuances of the encounter and emotions that the characters have grown with throughout the films. It was all spectacle, and when everything's spectacle....nothing is.

Look at the fight at the end of the Phantom Menace. For the first half of that fight, Maul seems evenly matched against Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan with neither side seeming to get much of an upper hand. However there is some reason to think that if they just keep at Maul, the two Jedi will win - they are pushing him slowly back. Then however disaster happens, Obi-Wan gets knocked away and we see him stare hopelessly at Qui-Gon and Maul battling high above him. The tables have turned and Obi-Wan knows it. He and Qui-Gon were just about keeping Maul at bay as a twosome so Qui-Gon alone is hopelessly outmatched.

We then have the part where Maul, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are separated by the red barriers. Note how anxious Obi-Wan looks - he is terrified that his master will die if he cannot get to him soon and these barriers are preventing that. Maul is clearly impatient, pacing annoyedly back and forth, his eyes never leaving Qui-Gon. He wants to finish this quickly before Obi-Wan can rejoin the fray. Qui-Gon on the other hand is completely serene. He knows his death is likely but he is not afraid nor will he back away. He will do what he must and leave everything in the hand of fate (or if you prefer the Force). This perfectly encaptures Qui-Gon's behaviour throughout the film - his faith that Anakin would win the podrace, that he will be trained and that he is the Chosen One. He will try to defeat Maul. If Obi-Wan can get to him to aid him then all the better. But what will be, will be.

Then of course Obi-Wan fails to get to the fight before the barriers close again. He watches helplessly as Maul kills Qui-Gon. In a rage that takes Maul by surprise, he battles him back, cutting the Sith Lord's lightsaber in half. But his anger gets the better of him and he narrowly avoids plunging to his death. Maul again shows the same impatience to finish things but Obi-Wan takes time to think things through and gets the better of Maul. He then promises his dying master that he will train Anakin. Qui-Gon dies but Maul is beaten and Anakin will be trained and ultimately balance will be restored to the force. Qui-Gon was right to be at peace during the battle - the Force knew what it was doing.

I've watched the other two prequels a lot less so I can't give as much of an analysis of their duels but I think The Phantom Menace duel is definitely more than flashy choreography. In terms of dramatic interplay, it's on a par with the OT fights.

they weren’t consistent about what we’d been told about the lightsabers up until that point.

In fairness, inconsistency is an issue in the OT as well. We're meant to believe that Vader and Obi-Wan are on a par in terms of duelling ability in Ep 4 while Luke is completely outclassed in Ep 5. The problem is Luke shows far more prowess than Obi-Wan does. You have to suspend your disbelief to a certain extent in all the SW lightsaber fights.