MovieChat Forums > What Dreams May Come (1998) Discussion > Film does not depict Heaven nor Hell, bu...

Film does not depict Heaven nor Hell, but rather it is Purgatory

posted 15 years ago by cryptoknightsux
29 replies | jump to latest

I agree with the original statement "this is not what Hell is like" made on a different discussion topic (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120889/board/thread/133409743). I considered posting there, but later thought the idea "This is Purgatory" might merit its own discussion.

IF I were to assume that this film is based partially on Christianity, and not solely non-Christian New Age Spirituality, then I would argue that that the "Hell" and "Heaven" presented in this movie is not Hell nor Heaven, but rather it is a representation of Purgatory, a.k.a. a state between death and final judgment. This conclusion is based on various evidence in the film, such as the absence of any divine leadership figure in "Paradise" and on the immediate appearance of the recently deceased in either the paint-filled "Paradise" or the dark and frightening "Outer Darkness".

It is believed in various Christian doctrines and even in Judaism that Purgatory is a place further purification and progression towards holiness, a last chance of sorts. It is also believed by many, including "Mormons", that this state between death and final judgment has two divisions called "Paradise" and "Spirit Prison". The following quote from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory seems to describe an existence, conditions, and events matching that which are depicted in What Dreams May Come:

"Before the Last Judgment, spirits separated from their bodies at death go either to Paradise or to Spirit Prison based on their merits earned in life. Paradise is a place of rest while its inhabitants continue learning in preparation for the Last Judgment. Spirit Prison is a place of anguish and suffering for the wicked and unrepentant; however, missionary efforts done by spirits from Paradise enable those in Spirit Prison to repent..."

I know that there are many out there who do not believe in the afterlife or who may not believe in "Purgatory" in particular. Regardless, I would be very interested to hear your opinions, God-fearing or otherwise, on whether or not the afterlife in "What Dreams May Come" is best interpreted to be Purgatory (the state between death and final judgment) as it is taught in the various religious doctrines.

[–] GUMBLOID 15 years ago

Well put cryptoknightsux. This was exactly my take on the movie too. The place is called Purgatory or some refer to it as Limbo. This is further exemplified by the feelings of emptiness. Excellent movie!

[–] TopFrog 15 years ago

The place is called Purgatory or some refer to it as Limbo.

According to traditional western Christian views, Purgatory and Limbo are very different places. Limbo is the first circle of hell. The only inmates who have gotten out of there were sinless pre-Christians who were released to go to heaven by Jesus's harrowing of Hell. Though they may be without sin, those in Limbo are among the damned, denied the beatific vision.

In contrast, those in Purgatory are saved souls, destined for Heaven. Purgatory is the place of "final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned." Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 1031.

Of course none of this fits too well with what is shown in the movie.

-- TopFrog

[–] happyguy99993 14 years ago

Actually, Limbo and Purgatory are considered the same thing by the Catholic Church. However, in Dante's Divine Comedy, which is where a lot of modern depiction of the Christian afterlife come from, Limbo is presented as the first circle of Hell.

Your silent face 11/10

[–] TopFrog 14 years ago

You are mistaken about Limbo and Purgatory being the same.

The Catholic Encyclopedia describes Limbo as follows (www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm):

In theological usage the name is applied to (a) the temporary place or state of the souls of the just who, although purified from sin, were excluded from the beatific vision until Christ's triumphant ascension into Heaven (the "limbus patrum"); or (b) to the permanent place or state of those unbaptized children and others who, dying without grievous personal sin, are excluded from the beatific vision on account of original sin alone (the "limbus infantium" or "puerorum").

Purgatory is another place entirely (www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm):

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

As is stated by the former article, "Catholic tradition has defended the existence of the limbus patrum as a temporary state or place of happiness distinct from Purgatory."

The limbus patrum should be empty from the time of the harrowing. The idea of the limbus infantium has never been official Church doctrine, and in 2007 the Church released a document expressing "strong grounds of hope" for the salvation of infants who died without baptism. But neither part of Limbo should be confused with Purgatory, which is a place of temporal punishment for those who are saved.

You are correct that Dante's placement of Limbo in Hell was his own invention.

[–] happyguy99993 14 years ago

Okay.

As a general rule, I don't like using New Advent, because it isn't "official" by Church standard and tends to have a heavy bias. If I want to read up on the Church, I'll read Canon Law or the Catechism. I just looked up Limbo in the index of my Catechism, and all that it says about it is that infants who died before Baptism go there. It says that Purgatory is a place in which people are purified who aren't quite ready to get to Heaven yet.(I'm paraphrasing, obviously). I don't see why it can't be the same place. However, it doesn't say that they are separate places either... so I really don't know.

[–] rocknrollprincess616 13 years ago

I think we're straying off topic pretty heavily. So, let me bump it and steer us back toward the original question.

As much as I consider myself a God-fearing woman, I can't say I've read enough of the Bible to know whether Purgatory is even mentioned. But, since no one can really attest to the existence (or lack thereof) of Heaven, Hell, or the in-between place, there are no right or wrong answers here. Faith is faith. You either believe it, or you don't. So, you can choose to believe certain aspects of Christianity or simply opt out of believing in one, many, or all of the beliefs practiced.

I'd also like to add that (and the original poster made mention of this, I think?) the idea of "The Waiting Place" is seen in a great many religions. Not solely in Christian text and literature.

Now that THAT is out of the way. I think that the description of Purgatory given pretty well covers What Dreams May Come. For quite a long time, I thought it was heaven and hell, but with that idea put to me, I'm beginning to think otherwise. I definitely think it COULD be Purgatory, in a sense. Though, how long one might have to wait to be judged is sort of subjective, I suppose. Time is just a measurement of moments. In a place like Purgatory, it seems like time wouldn't be relevant.

"The hardest thing in this world is to live in it. Be brave. Live. For me."

[–] Great_Gothamite 12 years ago

The place is called Purgatory or some refer to it as Limbo. This is further exemplified by the feelings of emptiness.

I was wondering about that, too. There's too much sadness for it to be paradise. Or maybe it's just that paradise is what you make it. Same with hell.

[–] Thynight 15 years ago

I never thought it was suppose to be Heaven or Hell. I always thought it was Purgatory.

Love begins with a smile, grows with a kiss, and ends with a teardrop.

[–] Jamo57 15 years ago

Dr. David Hawkins tosses out the idea in one of his books that the plane we are on now could possibly be Purgatory. It does fit many of the qualifications.

Wrap your mind around that one.......

Let's never come here again because it would never be as much fun.

[–] Sankara88 15 years ago

Better then purgatory (wich is alot restricted by the christian ways) is the astrale plane.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_plane

[–] intelligentsupermodel 15 years ago

I always assumed it was heaven, and this was highlighted when the wife went to hell. Oh, and because the entire family ends up there at the end of the film.

[–] 15 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Tsotha-lanti 15 years ago

Is any of this in the Bible?

````````````
Imagine that.

[–] siit 15 years ago

No, none of this is biblical.... neither is the concept of purgatory. It all boils down to poetic license.

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, you will get them"

[–] Sankara88 14 years ago

Dunno where or for sure BUT purgatory IS from the bible, i believe the old testament. It is not from other cultures though others have the same idea only in other worlds (like astral plane)

[–] siit 14 years ago

Purgatory is NOT biblical. It was invented by Catholicism so they could make money. They would say when you died, it is likely that your 'soul' went to a half-way house where you must repent and have people pray for you. What the Catholics did was leave money in their wills for the priests to say 'mass' for them, so eventually they would be absolved of their sin and move up to Heaven. The priests offered indulgences - pay me money and ill forgive your sins, or give you a free pass to heaven.... nothing of which is biblical... check your library, check the scriptures.

The closest thing they use for scriptural basis is Luke 26 (New Testament) where Jesus is stating a parable which was to illustrate that we need to listen to prophets now, and get it right now, cos once dead its too late. In the parable there is an allegorical description of hell and a mention of 'Abraham's Bosom', its this bosom that the catholics argue that is purgatory... again nonsense.

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, you will get them"

[–] happyguy99993 13 years ago

Lolwhutprotestant

I'm not going there to die. I'm going to find out if I'm really alive.

[–] Mike-Rotch 15 years ago

The concepts in the book (and, therefore; the film) aren't really based on Christian beliefs or mythologies, and the bit of Christianity there is in the story is inspired by the more esoteric (mystical) side of the religion.

Also, it's not 'Heaven' that they end up in, it's 'Sumerland', which seems a right lot better than 'Heaven' in the traditional sense, every one gets what they want or expect in the end.

~ I love you. M. ~

[–] revolutionman 14 years ago

I was going to say the same thing. Too bad no one is going to read your statement

Remember, the more you talk about Jesus, the less you have to be like him.

[–] spencerprattsactingcoach 13 years ago

I'm not religious whatsoever. My family are Presbyterian. With that being said, I do believe in the afterlife. Why and how? I'll tell you why and how. Because I have experienced first hand, spirits or ghosts if you may.

No, these ghosts are not covered in bed sheets with eye holes or smokey filled blots, but actual shadows. Shadows that weren't supposed to appear.

One shadow, I have seen on the walls of my friends house. It appeared to be an old man, tall, long chin with an old western hat of some sort. Not exactly cowboy, could be a farmer or miner, who knows. What I do know is that the city I live in is very old.

I have read upon these shadowy apparitions and many have seen what i have seen. They are thought to be people who have died, but don't know they have died or how they died or maybe they are in this spiritual prison on earth, where nobody acknowledges them as if they are in some dream like state for eternity until they find out how they died.

I could put this on my own life that I have seen these type of apparitions. After I have seen this, it made me a firm believer in the afterlife. There is an afterlife. Where is it exactly and where does it lead or how is it, nobody knows. But this I know, when we die, we release energy from our bodies. Energy that is alive and always will be.

Any atheist or agnostics out there, i feel sorry for you. Because you might all end up as one of them some day, never to see your loved ones, friends, family, etc.

[–] Neoblackdragon 13 years ago

.... What is called Heaven and Hell in the film is for Chris's sake(and of course the audience).

[–] xix_azn_luv_xix 12 years ago

spencerprattsactingcoach

If you're not religious, then how do you feel so sorry for us? I'm agnostic but I think that there may be something afterwards. I'd love to just be happy and spend eternity with everyone I love and care about. If I had a choice I'd do just that living my best memories over again and not come back reincarnated or in some unconscious state of darkness. Family is very important to me.