What's a murder hole? - Saving Private Ryan (1998) Discussion

[–] RoadKillBill1 9 years ago

I think someone here once said it was referring to craters made by the German artillery. They had their guns targeted so their rounds would land on certain areas of the beach, so as not to over concentrate on some areas and miss others. Therefore, it was likely that where a round hit another was likely to fall there, or very close again.

TNSTAAFL

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[–] michaelhoulihan-30566 9 years ago

Interesting, thanks

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[–] mikeyg24 9 years ago

As the landing craft approach Millar says 'move fast and clear those mortar holes'. Some people believe the opening shots of Omaha beach suggest that Millars landing wave was the first. In fact it was the third wave that broke through the German lines on Omaha. In short the mortar holes already on the beach were an indication of how close German artillery was being fired without risking German defences. When he says clear those mortar holes he means get beyond them, within the German artillery, as quick as possible. Which why he was eager to get the troops moving 'every inch of this beach has been pre-sighted, you stay here, you're dead men'.

<i>24/04/1916</I>

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[–] Hotrodder 9 years ago

Sorry Mikey but it's definitely "murder hole", the dialogue is as follows:

Captain Miller: [Approaching the beach] Port side stick, starboard side stick, move fast and clear those murder holes.
Sergeant Horvath: I wanna see plenty of beach between men. Five men is a juicy opportunity, one man's a waste of ammo.
Captain Miller: Keep the sand out of your weapons, keep those actions clear. I'll see you on the beach.

The term murder hole in this case means where the machine gun and mortar fire is concentrated most heavily I believe. Usually there are overlaying areas of crossfire in an area being defended. His instructions are essentially to keep moving forward whatever the cost.
The term "murder hole" comes from a method of defending a fortification:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder-hole

Trust me. I know what I'm doing.

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[–] phantom2-2 9 years ago

mikey has the right idea, even with the wrong quote. it makes more sense if you expand miller's quote a bit to: "[get] clear [of] those murder holes". basically, advance quickly to get out of sight of the bunkers' firing ports. it doesn't sound as urgent or military if you say all the words though.

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[–] mikeyg24 9 years ago

I stand corrected, the online script I found said mortar holes. Good info.

24/04/1916

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[–] Vigilante 8 years ago

That link you gave there basically gives the gist of it all. It's a concept of very concentrated defense/concentrated impact zone of the defenses (made clear by the term 'murder hole', which is probably the most concentrated form of defense in history).

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[–] 8 years ago

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[–] joekinplaya 8 years ago

Hotrodder's definition of murder hole is the right one. Easy to understand why it would be mortar hole because sometimes not easily heard. "Clear those murder holes" is an area of concentrated fire of presighted MG fire. Usually in "defense-tower" video games, the way you can succeed best is by creating murder holes yourself for instance where you have concentrated fire not allowing them to make contact.

Since the ONLY way off of the beach was through the murder holes to under the bunker and they had to create openings with bangalores, that entire beach was essentially as Miller mentioned presighted. If you stay there in the beach even if you are behind cover, eventually you will get killed and the only way into safety was up the beach where there were Germans. Once they cleared the murder holes, you noticed it wasn't as overwhelming for the specific group of men that took that bunker to clear Dog One whereas gaining just a few feet at the beach felt like it took eternity and is what made the assault on the beach so terrifying. Those X on the beach serves as two purposes; distance markers and to create obstacles in which would help create the murder hole scenario.

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[–] 8 years ago

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[–] phantom2-2 9 years ago

most likely the firing ports in the german bunkers.

at least that's the likely explanation if you use fortification terminology from the old castle days.

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[–] pmac7902 9 years ago

Which I highly doubt Cpt. Miller was doing. As the Wikipedia page says, the "murder hole" is in the ceiling of an entrance to a castle from which oil and other things are dropped or shot down from.

Given this was WWII and it was a beach without a ceiling and the Germans were using mortars, I think "Mortar Hole" is the most logical assumption here. Especially since the holes Cpt. Miller was referring to were made by...ya know...MORTAR SHELLS

~~~"Who do you think you're dealing with? Guess again."~~~

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[–] Hotrodder 9 years ago

The script itself says murder hole.

Trust me. I know what I'm doing.

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[–] Hotrodder 9 years ago

Definition on the Urban Dictionary, which I don't think is necessarily right:

murder hole
A slang word used to describe the opening in amphibious boats hull. It was named the murder hole in World War II by the marines who would land on Omaha Beach and experience German gunfire from the trenches killing most everyone inside the boat instintly. It was very terrible to be one of the first men in the boat. It was used and showed in the movie Saving Private Ryan.
"Clear the Murder Hole!"

"Move fast and quick, watch for those mines, and clear those murder holes!"

But on consulting the SPR Online Encyclopedia it seems it is right:

"Murder Hole"
Prior to their landing on Omaha Beach, Captain Miller urged his men to avoid "murder holes," a term used to describe the opening formed by the dropping of the landing craft's ramp. This relatively small area, through which all the craft's men were supposed to pass through, presented German gunners with an excellent opportunity to hit many Allied soldiers in a very short period of time. Because of this, many of the soldiers at Omaha Beach were forced to jump over the sides of their landing craft in order to avoid this deadly concentration of fire. In a few cases the entire complement of a landing craft was killed by machine gun fire before any of the soldiers hit the beach.

http://www.sproe.com/m/murder-hole.html

Trust me. I know what I'm doing.

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[–] pmac7902 9 years ago

Another poster found an online script that said "Mortar Holes"

But we'll go with your thing for a moment.

A "Murder Hole" is the rear exit to the landing craft? Okay. So explain "Clear those Murder Holes!" plural. I'm pretty sure it's just the one "hole." He wasn't talking to other crafts, just the men in his. So "Clear that Murder Hole" seems like a better line there but isn't what is said. Unless he envisioned them entering and exiting that and other landing crafts often which seems unlikely.

Again, I have to go back to fact that indirect as well as direct fire was a prominent part of their day. It was noted that every inch of the beach had been pre-sighted and there were in fact holes made by mortars to prove it.

To me it makes more sense that this was what was being referred to and not some obscure slang.

~~~"Who do you think you're dealing with? Guess again."~~~

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[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] phantom2-2 9 years ago

well, the bunkers are essentially mini-castles and they were shooting down at the beach so it makes perfect sense to me that he's referring to them.

miller's definitely saying murder holes, if you listen carefully.

anyways, why would you keep shooting artillery at the same spot?

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[–] pmac7902 9 years ago

So what are we going with? That a murder hole is a roof top feature a castle feature that WWII Gi's would know about and refer to? Or that Murder Holes(plural) are a single feature on a landing craft?

There is a difference between Mortar and Artillery Fire. Mortar shells are fired up at a high arc at closer range where as Artillery is fired from a distance at a lower trajectory. And the reason they would have pre-sighted every inch of that beach as Cpt. Miller said is because that's where the landing would be. They would fire at the same spots over and over because there were soldiers pouring onto the beach at the same spots over and over. Which is why it's a smart idea to get away from them because if there is a hole there, that means they can drop a round there.

14yrs in the Army and I have never once heard of any port or window in a building or bunker referred to as a "Murder Hole." The idea that it was the term for the back hatch of the landing craft I get I guess (though I still don't see how anyone would refer to a single thing in the plural) but I don't see why Cpt. Miller would feel the need to tell them to get off the boat. Telling them not to linger at the waters edge under cover and move up the beach so they don't get slaughtered seems more logical to me.

~~~"Who do you think you're dealing with? Guess again."~~~

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[–] RoadKillBill1 9 years ago

. And the reason they would have pre-sighted every inch of that beach as Cpt. Miller said is because that's where the landing would be. They would fire at the same spots over and over because there were soldiers pouring onto the beach at the same spots over and over. Which is why it's a smart idea to get away from them because if there is a hole there, that means they can drop a round there.

Which is pretty much what I said.

TNSTAAFL

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[–] phantom2-2 9 years ago

why would you shoot artillery at the same spot over and over again? the first shot makes a crater. the second shot makes a deeper crater, and only injures men actually in the crater already because it's detonating below ground level. the third shot even more so, etc, etc. soldiers aren't so dumb that they keep jumping into the same hole to get blown up, are they?

if you've been in the army maybe you know - is it standard practice to shoot at the same spot over and over again? maybe it is, with the assumption that wind will cause the shell to hit nearby, but i doubt the intent is to hit the exact same spot repeatedly.

i'm not buying the landing craft answer at all, because as you say it just doesn't make sense.

and i'm not buying mortar holes because he clearly says "murder holes".

i'm sticking with the castle terminology. 😀

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[–] pmac7902 9 years ago

*sigh

Mortar tubes aren't planted and set on "auto fire." They are manned by a small team of soldiers that in this case, had the traverse and trajectory degrees for their entire effective field of fire. So when another boat lands they can adjust fire and *fump* send another round down range. The round doesn't land in the SAME spot every time. The idea is proximity damage. As SFC Horbath said, "Spread out, don't group up! One man is a waste of ammo, a group is a juicy opportunity!" Granted he was talking about direct fire there.

But I'll meet you half way on this one. I don't think it's a big jump for your average GI to stop referring to them as Mortar Holes and start calling them Murder Holes as slang. That I get. Your average GI referencing an obscure feature of medieval architecture is a bit of a reach for me. So if it is in fact "MURDER HOLE" in the script, I hope that's what it meant because the other assertions don't seem to hold up in this scene. I will say that HottRodder was able to come up with some proof that they did refer to the exit hatch as the Murder Hole on the landing crafts so that does have some validity I think.

But hey, this is all just my take and we've really been spending a lot of time debating one word in the script! HAHA, we can be on opposite sides of the fence on this one. Obviously we both really like the movie. Have a good weekend man.

~~~"Who do you think you're dealing with? Guess again."~~~

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[–] nickm2 9 years ago

Well just my two cents worth, but I recall an documentary of an imbedded film crew in Afghanistan where the officer called a Taliban "firing port" chopped into a wall just barely big enough to stick the barrel of the weapon thru as a 'murder hole'.

Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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[–] phantom2-2 9 years ago

i know - without buddy around to make his wacky declarations of "absolute fact" this is what we're left with to argue over.... how the mighty have fallen!

miller wasn't an average gi, though - he was a bona fide high school teacher. probably knew way more than any of us about just about everything!

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[–] El_Crab 9 years ago

None of you have ever played Age of Empires. Murder holes are what allowed castles to attack soldiers at the base of an elevated tower or in a gate. They were holes in the floor or on the edge of a tower, allowing troops above to fire arrows or drop rocks, hot oil, etc, from above without exposing themselves.

Without murder holes, the soldiers defending would have to lean over the edge and expose themselves to the enemy. A murder hole eliminates the safety of reaching the base of a wall or tower.

http://i57.tinypic.com/2j2zreo.jpg

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[–] nakedgirl 8 years ago

opening in amphibious boats hull

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