MovieChat Forums > Dogma (1999) Discussion > Anyone else feel a tiny bit sorry for Az...

Anyone else feel a tiny bit sorry for Azrael, Loki, and Bartleby?

posted 9 years ago by BobStage
4 replies | jump to latest

I mean, when you think about it, they were cruelly punished for what ultimately seem to be petty offences.

Azrael didn't join the fighting between God and the Devil. He argues that he wasn't a soldier, and he should thus have no reason to fight. We can chock it up to slimy opportunism if we want, but really, that's all he's guilty of even if it's true. He didn't betray anyone, do anything. He claimed neutrality as, well, a civilian. I mean would we punish men and women of fighting age who don't volunteer to join the army whenever there's a war going on?

Bartleby felt sorry for humans once, and he drunkenly suggested Loki talk to God about no longer massacring humans in the name of God anymore. I mean, come on, he's arguing AGAINST slaughter. Doesn't the Bible say "Thou shalt not kill"? Yeah, it's meant for humans, but isn't Christianity, when you actually read the Bible, all about turning the other cheek and loving thy enemy? Where's the Infinite Mercy of the Divine then?

Loki's offence is even smaller. He drunkenly makes an ass of himself in front of God. That's it? Refusing to murder anyone anymore? Sure, the middle finger was stupid, but how many of us have made an ass of ourselves when we shouldn't have? For this, and this alone, Loki and Bartleby are forbidden to enter Heaven forever, for all eternity. And they'll be sitting there feeling the absence of God and it will pain them every single second of that time outside the gates. When he drunkenly yells "I just wanna go home!" in the movie, I felt really sorry for him. It was like listening to a child who's been forced to do things it doesn't want to do and it just wants to go back to the comfort and safety of their house.

So, in summary, God takes a muse who is at most an opportunist, and two angels who suffered a moment of drunken weakness at the sight of a massacre, much like how pretty much any human being with a lick of empathy would react. And what happens? They're all three punished brutally, and all angels are forbidden to imbibe alcohol to boot. If they'd had a lesser punishment, then none of this movie's plot would have happened.

[–] PreachCaleb 9 years ago

They're all three punished brutally,

 Loki and Bartleby were sent to Wisconsin. Guess you feel it's as brutal as they do.

but isn't Christianity, when you actually read the Bible, all about turning the other cheek and loving thy enemy?

No, no it is not. Jesus was, but the rest of the Bible is brutal in what it depicts, you know, when you actually read it.

Let's be bad guys.

[–] Ace_Spade (9544) 5 years ago

You have a really poor grasp on the bedrock of Christian theology if you think that the teachings of Jesus are different from the ethos of the religion.

[–] cockroachcharlie 9 years ago

Azrael was sent to Hell as a demon. First, it can't suck nearly as bad as being sent to Hell as a mortal sinner. At least he had SOME rank. Second, it's made clear that he only stood down from the fight for his own selfish reasons. He chose to inactively stand against both God and Satan and just throw his lot in with whoever was the winner.

Bartleby and Loki. It's a more difficult call. It really comes down to what happened after both were killed. I don't honestly know Smith's actually statement if he ever made one. My biggest thought is that Loki ultimately chose to fight for God before his death, and Bartleby chose genuine repentance upon seeing God again (which is all he really wanted). Both were admitted into heaven as mortals, and not breaking any rules since God allowed it. Therefore, their entire punishment may have been a case of "until you see the light."

[–] momur (107) 5 years ago

For Loki and Bartleby, it's implied that they were expelled from Heaven during the time of the Old Testament - which happens to be before all the "turn the other cheek"/"God is love"/"love thy enemy" teachings, which were pretty much exclusively given by Jesus in the New Testament. The God of the Old Testament is one who cursed His favourite creation for all eternity for disobeying Him, ordered a father to sacrifice his son to prove his loyalty (only stopping it at the last possible moment), massacred the first-born sons of an entire civilisation because its leader refused to obey His commands (and it's implied this is the event that made Bartleby convince Loki to go against God in the first place) and performed countless other acts of often horrific violence. The God they know is not a being of mercy but one of vengeance - Loki even says the reason he wants to kill the Mooby executives so badly is because he thinks God would approve of it. That God tasked Loki with being "the Angel of Death" and both Bartleby and Loki went against His instructions (with Loki being particularly disrespectful in doing so); of course He'd come down hard on them for it, especially since angels are not supposed to exercise free will.

As for Azrael, it's implied that he was, in fact, ordered (or drafted) to fight and refused. Even as humans, we have a history of looking down on those who refused to fight even when drafted - in the World Wars, it was common for able-bodied men of fighting age to be regularly shamed by society if they hadn't signed up, and just look at how draft-dodgers during the 20th century wars with US involvement were treated. Yes, we can all relate to not wanting to get caught up in a conflict that we feel has nothing to do with us, but (as far as Christian theology goes) that war between Lucifer and God was far bigger and with higher stakes than any conflict we've seen on earth, so naturally the shame for the "draft-dodgers" would be much greater too.