The whole "who would be the first to walk on the moon" situation seems so strained.
Since Armstrong was the commander and closest to the hatch it makes totally obvious sense that it would be him who made history.
But Aldrin seems to think it's not so clear.
And then the whole ceremony he created just seemed so petty and small, it was very uncomfortable to watch.
Did all that really take place?
i have to say, that having seen numerous interviews with Aldrin, he does seem extremely bitter at not being the first man on the moon. Aldrin has never been one to shy away from any sort of opportunity to make public/press statements and would drop anything on his schedule to be interviewed, whilst Neil Armstrong has always been very shy and never ever entertains any sort of publicity, but yeah..Buzz really needs to get over this and I empathise with him...he has no chance of re-writing almost 45 years of history.
share[deleted]
It wouldn't necessarily be problematic the way it would in zero-G. Stuff still falls, after all.
Regarding the question of who would get out first, Aldrin has downplayed the issue in his writing, putting it as more him asking around because of how it would factor into simulations. As I recall, Gene Cernan (who clearly doesn't think highly of Aldrin) described the incident rather unfavorably in his autobiography "The Last Man On the Moon". On the other hand, Dave Scott in his own book "Two Sides of the Moon" says the controversy has been blown way out of proportion. (Both boths are great accounts of that era and worth reading, BTW).
My own speculation, based on what I've read is that Buzz may have indeed had a bit of interest in his asking around, but it probably wasn't as bad as some make it out to be. It's also possible some legitimate questions Buzz may have had might have been interpreted by other astronauts as self-serving.
Now there was some precedent for considering that the LMP might get out first, since the commander stayed inside while the pilot performed EVA's on the Gemini missions (of course in that case, it just made sense to have the astronaut that was less burdened with responsability perform the EVA's).
There have also been a number of rumors as to the reason Neil was chosen to get out first. One possibility, which understandably bothered Buzz when he heard about it, was that they wanted to avoid any appearance of militarization of space exploration and thus chose Neil, a civilian (albiet retired from the Navy) over Buzz (an Air Force officer). I don't tend to buy that, since Tom Stafford or Pete Conrad (Air Force and Naval officers, respectively) could have just as easily commanded the first landing. And had he lived, Deke said he probably would given Gus Grissom (also Air Force) first chance as landing.
I've also heard accounts of NASA folks thinking that the reticent, soft-spoken, and modest Neil looked better from a PR standpoint, which I'm also dubious of. I've also heard a technical explanation: Since the hatch on the LM swung towards the LMP's side, it would be impossible for the two astronauts to switch places in their EVA suits. Al Bean's questioned this, however, by pointing out the two astronauts could simply switch places BEFORE putting out the hard-suits. Interestingly, had the Apollo 8 and 9 prime and back-up crews not switched places, this controversy could've affected him and Conrad instead.
Me, I think it was simply a case of protocol. The commander gets out first. Simple as that. Neil was also the senior astronaut, something that counted a great deal in the astronaut corps. No disrespect to Al, but, had it been him and Pete Conrad, it's hard to imagine them having a rookie astonaut be first to walk on the moon over a two-time veteran like Pete.
Michael Collins agrees with t smitts. That's pretty convincing, since Collins was as close to the situation as possible without actually being one of the players. He says that early check-lists showed Aldrin getting out first, but Armstrong "exercised his commander's prerogative to crawl out first."
He also says Buzz's attitude turned toward "gloom and introspection" as a result, and that Aldrin tentatively approached him (Collins, that is) about the injustice of the situation.
In a series of little one-paragraph capsule profiles of each member the astronaut corps, he ventures the thought that Aldrin "resents not being first on the moon more than he appreciates being second."
All from "Carrying The Fire," Collins' book.
ALdrin does seems a little bitter.
BUt I give a lot of credit for figuring out the best way to deal with the "Moon Landings Were Fakes" idiots.....
I'll Teach You To Laugh At Something's That's Funny
Homer Simpson
I think Mike Collins made the observation that Buzz resents not being first more than he appreciates being second.
shareWell, yes: as the direct quotation from his book a couple posts up says.
shareoops. or as young people say... doh!
shareAs I've read recently, Buzz should simply introduce himself as 'I am the second man to walk on the moon! Neil before me.'
shareIt helps if you understand some of Buzz's background. His father was a wealthy man, who was very much used to getting what he wanted, and perpetually pushed his only son to be a "high end" achiever. Because of his family's wealth, Buzz grew up basically isolated from other kids, attending private schools and such; consequently, he was lacking in the "social graces," simply because he never had the opportunity to learn them. He was not your average guy. He may have known how to behave at an Embassy Ball, but he didn't know how to talk with Joe Regular. As a result, his fellow astronauts often misjudged him as being snooty and aloof. To his credit, throughout his life, he often defied his father into making his own life choices. Buzz was basically shy. When he spoke up, it was about legitimate business, but was too often interpreted wrongly by others.
As to who was to be first on the moon, Aldrin had a legitimate question that needed answering: Project Gemini had set clear precedents that the #2 man did the EVAs, while the commander- the senior astronaut- remained inside. Even on Apollo 9, the commander, Jim McDivitt, stayed in the spacecraft, while his subordinates did the walks. At this stage of his life, it was dear old daddy, behind the scenes, that was still pushing his boy to be Number One. If Buzz showed any bitterness, I doubt it was about any of the space program's policies or decisions, but more about his relationship with his own father.
He was a superb astronaut, highly motivated and completely reliable. History gives him a hard time, just because he had been a rich kid. He appeared briefly on the sitcom, The Big Bang Theory, a few years ago, and he poked enormous fun at himself and the public's perception that he is some sort of strutting egoist, which I don't think he ever was. I think Armstrong knew exactly what he was doing, when he agreed to have Buzz as part of his team.
No doubt Buzz's history with his father (like anyone else) has had an influence.
And I'm speaking as a big fan of the moon landing effort.
Buzz, like the others, was a man... with strengths and weaknesses. Like Collins said (and others who had quoted Mike before I did) Buzz seems to resent not being first rather than appreciating being second.
And I think if he tended towards Neil's attitude to publicity, I believe he would've done his cause more justice. His anecdote about being the 'first man to take a pi55 on the lunar surface'...?
He was a superb astronaut, highly motivated and completely reliable.no doubt. And it's not always about the flights. He was instrumental in nutting out the rendezvous techniques during Gemini.
He appeared briefly on the sitcom, The Big Bang Theory, a few years ago, and he poked enormous fun at himself...Well, not a fan of BBT, but Carpenter and McDivitt did The Brady Bunch(?). Buzz did a self effacing episode on 30 Rock. Very funny. I liked that. Now that's a great show!
I think Armstrong knew exactly what he was doing...I totally agree, although Neil would give a tinker's cuss what I think. The story goes that Deke offered Jim Lovell as his LMP. For many reasons, including letting Jim command his own mission, he stuck with Buzz. But at the same time, Collins highlighted Buzz's personality and his issues with alcohol that impacted adversely on training, and manifested itself on the post mission world tour.
As to who was to be first on the moon, Aldrin had a legitimate question that needed answering: Project Gemini had set clear precedents that the #2 man did the EVAs
I don't know how upset he was before the actual mission, but I thought the show really went out of its way to make him appear more jealous and bitter than he probably was. In reality, I think any bitterness came much later, at having been forever branded as "the second man on the moon" when, in fact, they both landed at the same time!
The ones who should really feel bitter are the other 10 astronauts who walked on the moon, whose fame was forever eclipsed by Aldrin and Armstrong. How many of them can you name?
Not necessarily. IIRC, Cranston's portrayal of Buzz showed that he knew he was unpopular with the other astronauts and resented the "Dr. Rendevouz" dissing he got. He was also seen as the first scientist-astronaut because he had a PhD.
What none of the film or TV depictions of Apollo 11 stress sufficiently is how important it was to NASA to be seen as a civilian space program. Neil's civilian status was a big deal to the NASA honchos. From Neil's perspective I bet Navy protocol was a major factor: the highest-ranking officer is always the first off the boat and the last into the boat.
...stress sufficiently is how important it was to NASA to be seen as a civilian space program.because it's a misnomer. First American in space? First American in orbit? First American EVA? If it was so important, why not more than the handful of civilian pilots they selected?
Nope. You need to go back and read up on the history of the program(s). NASA went to great lengths to distance itself from the US military. It has been well-documented by numerous sources that Neil being a civilian was a big deal to the NASA brass. The crew juggling that was going on due to various flight scheduling issues was the main driver, but it's not as if Deke was going to get to pick who landed first without approval from higher-ups. They were very glad that Neil was the one in the pipeline to set foot on the moon first. Had it come down to it, they would probably have overridden any procedural choices and ensured that Neil stepped out first instead of Buzz. Buzz was never going to be the first out of the LM.
shareYou need to go back and read up on the history of the program(s).Thanks for the suggestion. Sure, many of NASA's pilots are loaned from the military, but it is a civilian organisation. They don't have to go to any lengths to distance themselves from the military.
The crew juggling that was going on due to various flight scheduling issues was the main driver, but it's not as if Deke was going to get to pick who landed first without approval from higher-ups.
Buzz was never going to be the first out of the LM.no, because Neil was the senior astronaut, he was the commander... and in retrospect (to quote Mike again) we '...can't offhand think of a better choice to be first man on the moon'. share
Aldrin was apparently upset before the mission. I'd imagine he became more bitter later, just because he had a lot more time to think about it (both in terms of span of time, and percentage of his day that wasn't taken up with pretty intense work and preparation). In Mike Collins book he briefly describes a fight between Aldrin and Armstrong (from which Collins himself had the good sense and diplomatic nature to withdraw). It apparently started out as something to do with a simulation exercise gone wrong, but turned into a late-night fray.
After alluding to the fight, Collins observes: "Although Buzz never came out and said it in some many words, I think his basic beef was that Neil was going to be the first to set foot on the moon.... This had been decided in April, and Buzz's attitude took a noticeable turn in the direction of gloom and introspection shortly thereafter. Once he tentatively approached me about the injustice of the situation, but I quickly turned him off. I had enough problems without getting into the middle of that one."
...Thus likely leading to that idiotic private communion ceremony in the LM, which really seems to me to have been a publicity stunt for Buzz to salve his wounded ego.
share...that idiotic private communion ceremony in the LM...The one that got the okay from his bosses, including Deke Slayton? It certainly wasn't an overt ceremony. Talking about his first pi55 on the surface is what got me.
I'm going by memory as I don't have Collin's book handy but doesn't he also say in it that even Aldrin's dad, who was a friend with Charles Lindbergh, got involved with the push to have Buzz take the famous first step?
shareI'm going by memory as I don't have Collin's book handy...Shame on you!
"Shame on you!"
lol
Yes you motivated me to find that book but I got sidetracked with other things and of course when your not looking is when things show up like it did yesterday. Meanwhile I also recently got "Apollo: the race to the moon" after reading your opinion of it and "Stages to Saturn". Hopefully, I can find that comment I mentioned in my post but I might have it all wrong and It wasn't Collins that wrote it.
Just curious if you have read Tom Kelly's book about the Lunar Module. Spider is one of my favorite episodes but it barely touches all the problems they had to overcome. Pretty mind boggling what they managed to accomplish back then to pull off 6 successful landings.
Not sure if you have ever seen these old James Burke episodes? If not, enjoy!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWZupDRI0ss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puWbQ1b-ljU
thanks for the clips. He has done some amazing stuff; The Real Thing was my first experience with his great documentaries; and I see it's there as well! The scene with McDivitt firmly telling Schmitt, Lovell and Scott about the flawed thinking about the redesigned hatch sounds like classic Jim. Collins' word picture of McDivitt 'thought by some to run a little scared... legendary thoroughness...' comes through.
I hope you enjoy Apollo. As the authors say, not a history book, but a book of stories. And they tell them really well. I'd kill for a 'director's cut'; apparently they left out a heap of stuff. And every time I watch 'Is That All There Is?' I wish they wrote the lightning strike scene as it actually happened. The episode doesn't really show how knowledgeable these guys were but at the same time, still got caught out with John Aaron's call of 'SCE to aux.' Showing Flight just shrugging his shoulders with a 'tell 'em.' didn't sit well with me. And the story of how Aaron knew what to do was an example of just how hard these guys worked. I use it as an example for my son who is embarking on a career as a military pilot. One can be smart; one can be good; those talents don't add up to a whole lot unless hard work is in the mix. And the story of Aaron 'just hanging around in the early hours of the morning listening to a test conducted at The Cape... and then nutting out an answer to a question many wouldn't have worried about... And then there's Griffin (flight) quietly asking Aaron 'Err, which panel is that switch, EECOM?' is a classic.
So Tom Kelly's book is a good one? I have Pellegrino/Stoff's Chariots for Apollo. That's an entertaining read about the LM. Separate to Chariots for Apollo by Brooks/Grimwood/Swenson. I will look for it. I've been burnt with a few of my recent purchases: John Young's book was a big disappointment for me. Too much build up, I guess. I found it almost as bad as Gordon Cooper's. Ugh. Thanks for the recommendation.
And now I'll revisit The Real Thing. An old time favourite. I have Burke's book The Day The Universe Changed. Good documentary, very good book.

Your welcome. As for Tom Kelly's book, I thoroughly enjoyed it and it's got great reviews for the most part but one 2-star review doesn't compare it too favorably with Chariots for Apollo so you might want to take that into consideration.
Yeah, I keep hoping they will release a blue-ray version with all the missing footage available. Would be great for the 50th anniversary. I can't remember which book I first read that went into detail about the lightening strike and John Aaron"s brilliant performance. Just another amazing example of how dedicated these guys were.
Yeah, I keep hoping they will release a blue-ray version with all the missing footage available. Would be great for the 50th anniversary.Sorry, that was my poor analogy... I was referring to Murray & Bly-Cox's book. They finish off with a chapter about writing the book; they left a lot of great stories out of the finished product. I couldn't believe what I was reading!
Had to check out the reviews at amazon about The History of Manned Space Flight and surprisingly there's only 5 of them but all great reviews! I got a used copy on the way now. Thanks for the tip! Hopefully they re-release it for the 50th.
Just curious if you ever heard about how Aldrin said he made 2 screw-ups on the way to the moon but would never say what exactly they were? I stumbled upon a site he was hosting and somebody asked him what his scariest moment in space was. His response:
"I believe it was after leaving the surface of the moon and completing a successful rendezvous with Mike Collins in the command module, as we approached connecting / docking, the procedures in the checklist said one thing, and I thought maybe doing it a slightly different way, rolling and pitching instead of something else, and I thought that was better on the spur of the moment! It turns out that it was not a good thing to do, because it caused the platform to become locked, and we were not able to use the primary thrusters, the primary guidance, to control the spacecraft, to its final few feet to dock and join the other spacecraft. That was my mistake. I suggested to my commander that we do it differently, and it was his mistake to assume that i knew what I was talking about. So we both made mistakes - brought about by me! We recovered successfully on the "abort guidance" system.
(I don't admit that to many people)
(but I'm sure the mission controllers in Houston, while it was happening or certainly afterwards, they certainly knew what had happened, but fortunately they didn't squeal on us)"
I don't recall ever hearing about this but I do forget details in books rather quickly so thought I would ask if it's something your familiar with?
The site btw, if your interested:
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2a5vg8/i_am_buzz_aldrin_engineer_american_astronaut_and
Your library might quickly be approaching critical mass. As mine did a few years ago. There are some good comments on Baker's book. It won't disappoint. Moon Fire is a nice coffee table book. A re-release of Mailer's A Fire On The Moon. Very well presented.
Just curious if you ever heard about how Aldrin said he made 2 screw-ups...I'm not positive, but I remember Buzz saying (somewhere) he was the one who switched the rendezvous radar to 'auto' for the landing. Even though it's not required... He wanted to ensure it was ready, just in case. But of course that switch position added to computer workload, causing the computer alarms. This is also covered in some detail in Apollo: the Race to the Moon. There was a lot of concern that as the computer was not up to the job when they're trying to find a fix spot on the surface, how will go finding the orbiting CM? The final question from the backroom boys was 'they hadn't, by any chance, had the radar in 'auto', did they?'
...and I thought that was better on the spur of the moment!another reason to trust a checklist that has gone through months of examination and testing rather than improvising! A copy of the Mission Debrief has quite a bit of detail about this. most of it's over my head, but they talk about arriving at station keeping with an issue with the sun in their eyes. Neil says he flies into a position ready for the dock with the CM. Mike asks for him to manoeuvre some more, which he does and puts the LM into gimble lock (Jim McDivitt was initially pi55ed about Apollo's gimble system. Gemini had a platform that could not do that!) Neil was pretty up front about it. Buzz didn't seem to add too much to the conversation... maybe he's recalled a little more about it in the passage of time.
Yes, I got Moon Fire not long after it came out. It's too bad the other missions didn't get the same treatment.
I remember finding out about Apollo's gimble system from that excellent series "Moon Machines". Something to do with the weight saving I believe. One less gyro then Gemini's system? Easy to understand the astronauts point of view. I wonder who made the final decision about that?
I've been to Collectspace.com quite often but for some strange reason, the 2 times I tried to register never went through. The only site I can remember that I had a problem with.
I remember finding out about Apollo's gimble system from that excellent series "Moon Machines".Mike says it was a Gemini V Apollo sort of thing. The Apollo contractors took the snooty attitude; 'if you don't like the way we do things, you obviously don't understand...' Collins says McDivitt threatened he wouldn't fly without the fourth gyro!
I remember it took me a couple of goes to get on as well.
...maybe it's someway of weeding out the hoax believer crowd who wouldn't keep on trying to register. I'll have to try again.There will inevitably be a question like 'but how can we argue that the moon landings are real?' you can feel the eye rolling board-wide. Try and get on, because you'll want to participate in some conversations. They're a welcoming bunch.
Kind of a curious thing but I think my 2 favorite books about the landings were actually from the CMP's point of view with Michael Collin's and Al Worden's biography...I would never have picked up Mike's book, but as a kid, I found the 'space!' section of the library, and there it was... I couldn't get over how entertaining he was as a writer. Humourous, self effacing with literally, laugh out loud moments. I haven't read Worden's, so I'll put it on my list.
...surprised to find out that he didn't have the usual desire as a youngster to become a pilot.We always hear about the kids hanging around the local airports, sweeping up to make money for lessons...
I'm pretty sure you will enjoy Worden's book. I remember thinking that he has a similar style of writing that made Collin's book such a standout.
Yeah, the stamps. I wonder how much of NASA's time Al Shepard used doing his wheeling and dealing? And of course all of those congressmen and senators needed to make a big deal out of very little.
No go but probably for the best because I really suck at flight simulators. lolso, we both lack that indefinable, unutterable, integral (right) stuff? I got selected for RAN flight training back in 1977... sadly, I thought i could cruise through the course without any hard work. No. That's not how it works. What an idiot. One of my course mates is now highly involved with the F35 appropriation.
One of my course mates is now highly involved with the F35 appropriation.
I'm not sure what to make of the F35.There's always other choices. It's sometimes hard to detect the 'alternative motive' for some of these decisions. But I remember the purchase of the F111 back in the 1960's. The wings were literally falling off the test aircraft... but after we got them, they had a long and distinguished service. It will be interesting to see if the F35 fills the role(s) required. So many times (NASA comes to mind) we see organisations purchasing equipment and then trying to find a role for it.
The first couple of chapters of Apollo might be of particular interest to you; all those Canadian engineers from AVRO finding jobs south of the boarder with the expanding US space program.
I see you're still contributing here, so I thought I'd let you know that I've taken your advice and ordered Al's book. We have a book store in town that I like to support. You know... gotta look after the local businesses.
Thanks. How did you love Apollo: Race to the Moon?
Sorry. I haven't checked back here for awhile. "Apollo: Race to the Moon" was a fantastic book. I've been reading up about the moon landings for quite awhile now but there was so much I learned from that book. One of the things that's always kind of boggled my mind is how they were able to accomplish so much in such a relatively short time span. I can sometimes understand the moon landing hoaxheads when they point this out. What really impressed me about "Apollo: Race to the Moon" is how they explained the administration point of view and the steps taken to make everything click the way it did despite all the issues that came up. Goes to show what virtually unlimited funding and the red tape kept to a minimum can accomplish.
Also a lot of great info regarding the Saturn V. Watching one of those lift-off, even on TV is one of the most amazing things I've seen. Must admit though, I never really thought too much about the development process involved to get it to that stage. This book along with "Stages to Saturn" have really heightened my appreciation for the design, manufacturing and logistical problems involved. I've been wondering if the process for the Nova rocket would of even been feasible back then since the Saturn V seemed to have maxed out the system. Might be a good question to ask over at collectspace. I got a good chuckle when I read about the first Apollo V lift-off and the guy responsible for fueling it was looking down at the rocket and came to the conclusion that there's no way in hell something so massive would ever get off the ground. I can't say I really blame him. BTW. I understand now what you mean't about wishing for a uncut version of the book. They really should of written another one to cover the rest of the missions and all the untold stories related to them.
Not sure if you have finished Al Worden's book yet. Hope you like it. Another one I read a few months ago is Charlie Duke's "Moonwalker" and I highly recommend that one. You can even order a autographed copy from his website if you want which I'll probably do once our Canadian dollar rebounds a bit more. I also keep meaning to ask if you have any of the Apogee Books mission reports. I have most of the Apollo related ones and they are packed full of all kinds of interesting info that I'm sure you would enjoy. A lot of info in the books can be found on the internet but each book comes with a CD with all kinds of goodies on them.
Glad you loved the book! On the quiet, I checked if you were still contributing on IMDB before posting the inquiry.
As they made clear, not a book of history, a book of stories. And they told those stories so well. I gave an audible "What the..." reading the last chapter on their experiences writing the book. So many great stories left out. Bugger. Where else would you find those conversations when Apollo 6 lost the 2 engines...? And the sad story of one Booster who made a call that was questioned by some people... so much so, he had a nervous breakdown. Tough jobs.
That story of Sy Liebergot being 'never so relieved' when that shift finally ended during the 13 crisis. Without comparing my experiences with Sy's, I have had those feelings from time to time over the years.
I've been wondering if the process for the Nova rocket would of even been feasible back then since the Saturn V seemed to have maxed out the system. Might be a good question to ask over at collectspace.One guy is quoted as saying the Nova was a psychological crutch. With the Nova in their minds, the Saturn V looked (almost) feasible!
Not sure if you have finished Al Worden's book yet.I got that from my local bookstore last week. Amazon had it for a few bucks cheaper, but I like the staff and we must support our local businesses here in the country! But, yes, not a bad read. Some good insight into Dave Scott's personality... and Al's. I'm up to the end of the post mission debriefs, so I guess the other shoe is about to drop. And Jim Irwin is almost invisible! Just as I read in Apollo. But, yes; a good read. His previous book of poetry might be... interesting.
...any of the Apogee Books mission reports.They are interesting from technical point of view. I've got 8, 9 and 11. They're pretty expensive in Australia, so I got the one's that seem to have some quality of uniqueness to the flight. I know each flight was different, but the budget doesn't allow for too much minutiae these days... even with the great CD's and photographs! I'll keep Duke's in mind. I haven't anything good from Apollo 16. Just Young's effort... bugger.
I've been meaning to get Cunningham's book for awhile but it happens to be one of those that you can get pretty cheap on the USA amazon site, but costs ridiculously more on the Canada site. Of course when there's that much of a price discrepancy, the USA sites won't ship to Canada.
I ended up getting Jim Irwin's book "To rule the Night" a couple years ago. I'd rank it about middle of the pack. It was a bit amusing finding out that Irwin quickly lost interest with flying while in flight school. Main reason it would seem, was he didn't like the bumpy air in Hondo, Texas. lol. He actually tried quitting but he was told by his commanding officer that the only way out was to sign something saying he was afraid of flying. The thought of putting his signature to something so humiliating changed his mind and he decided to stick with it. I wonder if he ever hunted that guy down and thanked him for keeping him on track career wise?
One thing I only found out about a few years ago was how NASA wrung out every bit of scientific information they could from each mission including having some of the LM’s impacting the lunar surface after the final separation to generate seismic waves for the ALSEP’s left behind. I’m sure you know all about this as well as the spent S-IVB’s being used for the same role.
When it came to Apollo 15, everything was going as planned but as the crew was preparing for the journey home, Dave Scott and Jim Irwin realized that in the rush to meet the LM separation from the CSM at the right time, they had each assumed that their PPk’s(Personal Preference Kit) had been transferred by the other guy but sadly they had been missed. Aside from family mementos that were now in a man-made crater on the moon, Jim Irwin had his best friends wedding ring inside as well. Imagine having to explain that to your best buddy and his wife after returning.
I should mention that each astronaut had two PPK’s, and one of them was kept with the CSM which was the one that was auctioned off during Jim Irwin’s estate sale.
Just curious if you ever seen the 1;24 scale scratchbuilt Lunar Module that is featured in one of the collectspace threads? Pretty amazing work and here it is if you haven't seen it:
http://spacemodels.nuxit.net/LEM-24/index.htm
Of course when there's that much of a price discrepancy, the USA sites won't ship to Canada.Welcome to my world. I did make quite a bit of hay when our dollar was worth more than the US. Amazon were nearly giving away stuff! But now we're south of 80 cents, it's better to visit my local book store. Even European Blu-rays were dead cheap (we share the same region blocker), but no more. My boys want to get some Wayfarers, but the more reasonably priced RayBans suppliers will never post DownUnder. Fortunately my brother in Sydney has a business office in CA he visits a couple of times a year...
Thanks for the tip about Dragonfly. Got one on order now.
I used to build models when I was younger as well. I probably had the same LM kit as I remember putting the gold foil on. I've started buying kits again and will probably get back into it soon. It's pretty amazing what you can get for after-market nowadays to really ramp up the detail. I would love to do a similar scratch-build job on a LM as well some day. It would be hard to choose which one though. I think either Apollo 12's Intrepid or Apollo 16's Orion.
Here's another link that should interest you. Not sure if you have seen this young lady yet but her enthusiasm for the space program is pretty infectious. I even got her recently released book that I've learned quite a bit about the early development of rockets:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCw95T_TgbGHhTml4xZ9yIqg
...if you have any of the Apogee Books mission reports.I've just been looking at some stuff to read, and I find that (besides the mission reports) I've got a Gemini book published by Apogee... How NASA Learned to Fly In Space. Not a bad read. I think most of the detail was covered by Baker in The History of Manned Space Flight. But the big find in my library is the Columbia Accident Investigation Report.
History repeats as NASA feels the pressure of a tight flight schedule and again gets comfortable with a build up of anomalies that threatened flight safety. Reading of the communication going on while Columbia was in orbit; everything was focused on how the wing strike would affect the flight schedule rather than the safety of the astronauts in orbit.
From the report, management were told of the strike within 24 hours of launch. Columbia was fitted out with an 'extended stay' amount of consumables that would have given them a 5 day overlap with an expedited, but-skip-nothing-in-the-countdown, launch of Atlantis. They well might have saved the crew and chalked up another amazing save on the level of Apollo 13.
It all come down to NASA management looking the other way. Even when talking of the possible damage from the strike, it was all about how it will affect the next flight... not the safety of the mission currently flying.
There are no classic lines like Larry Mulloy's 'my God, Thiokol, when do you want me to launch, next April??' But everything smacks of 'nothing to see here, let's move on.' Nothing like many would expect from NASA. "You're NASA for crying out loud! You put a man on the moon. You're the guys thinking sh*t up..."
Engineers down the decision-making line put more than 3 requests for defence satellites to get a shot of the wing.
Software that was used for ice particle strikes showed on a 'best-case' scenario the strike would have likely penetrated the wing. But as the software wasn't designed to check for 'suitcase' sized objects, and the engineer running the program was a newbie, it was argued this disturbing result was not valid. And of course, you would have seen the damage caused when they re-enacted the foam strike... a shocking hole in the wing.
One of Columbia's MS's, Brown I think, took film of the ET on separation and downloaded 35 seconds of footage. It didn't show the area where the foam had come from, and no one thought to ask him to download all of his camera footage. This may have confirmed the size of the object that struck the orbiter.
In all, the investigation listed 6 missed opportunities to identify the damage and initiate a possible rescue.
Yes, I remember the lightening strike. There was nothing available that would have saved Yankee Clipper. No other spacecraft was anywhere near ready for a launch. So, yeah, why not go to the moon? I could be wrong, but I think they did have a Saturn 1B with a modified CM ready for the Skylab crews... just in case.
Thanks for the correction. Lot of info I was unaware of. I wonder if they would of tried to come up with a quick-fix patch kit that might of given them the option to try and save Columbia as well? Knowing how astronauts are, it wouldn't surprise me at all that 1 or 2 of them would of volunteered to give it a try. Not sure if it's even possible to land it with one person.
shareThe patch the wing was considered, but it was never a viable solution. There was no manipulator arm on Columbia, so an EVA was always going to be very difficult with no hand-holds for the astronaut on the wing. Especially as EVAs are rehearsed to almost the second before they're done.
The idea was that they would scavenge everything available from the shuttle and then wedge it into the hole. They would also use frozen water and tape to finish the job. They were thinking the ice would hold just long enough to get through the worst of the re-entry. The orbiter's aerodynamics would probably be compromised and the crew would have to bail out before landing. The accident commission assessed the fix as unlikely to succeed and pretty quickly discarded it for the Atlantis option.
Of course, because of the limited time available, the preparations for Atlantis needed to be under way within the first week of Columbia's flight. Management needed to understand and appreciate the dire situation pretty quickly.
Atlantis would have launched with a skeleton crew of 4. Two to fly and 2 for the EVA.
If the rescue went as planned, Columbia would have been remotely de-orbited and ditched into the ocean.
Sorry. I meant to say that perhaps they might of been able to come up with something for Atlantis in regards to patching Columbia. I don't know if they would of had the time to figure something out that could be used by the remote arm from Atlantis. I'm sure they could of come up with something but would they have been willing to risk 2 astronauts to attempt a re-entry? I guess it's kind of pointless to speculate about such things but now that I know that a rescue plan was feasible, it's hard not to think about what-ifs. Thnks again for the info.
shareI'm sure they could of come up with something but would they have been willing to risk 2 astronauts to attempt a re-entry?You'd want to be pretty sure it was a good fix, wouldn't you? I think I would be firmly in the "Fly it back? Gee, I dunno..." side of the argument. I think they would have only used the fix to get the orbiter back if the Atlantis couldn't be pressed into service.
Have you seen the footage of the re-enactment of the strike? I'm sure it's on Youtube. The looks of WTF? on the faces of those who thought the wing was made of sterner stuff would have been just too awful to contemplate.
Come the think of it, I remember reading an old copy of Air & Space that featured an article on Hoot Gibson. What a guy. One of his last flights had an issue with some damage to the orbiter that NASA didn't take as seriously as he did. He was saying the first hint of him being proved correct would be some yaw issues during re-entry. Gibson was waiting for the need to use the rudder pedals (or thrusters?) to keep the orbiter at the correct attitude. Of course, it all come out fine, but he was one unhappy commander. I'll have to see if I can find magazine... it's somewhere here.
Just finished watching it. At a bit of a loss for words right now.Amazing, huh?
One tile was completely missing and they think it was just luck that it happened were the steel plate for the L-band antenna was. Otherwise, a disastrous burn-through might of occurred.Exactly. My son had my copy of the A&S (May 2009). When I read Mullane was on the crew, I thought of his book. I do have that one. Another good read. Never underestimate the value of a clean lower colon!
Mullane has done quite well with his professional speaking job. I don't know if you remember the part were he removed the info from his folder concerning the only time he had to eject during a F-111 training mission. He goes into more detail about it in this video and it's one of those "you got to be kidding" situations. To see how close they came to successfully landing is pretty painful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wuk_DoX-rz8
I'll check the video out later. Thanks. Always a big fan of the F111.
I got hooked into Mullane's book last night. Just cherry picking the anecdotes; he tells a great story.
His friendship with Judy and his brother-astronauts' attitude to the friendship was interesting. But his head-butting with John Young and George Abbey had me enthralled. I had forgotten he put these guys under the microscope. An excellent read. Now I have to check out Young's disappointing tome to see if he had anything to say about Mullane.
I see the side menu of You tube has a few other interesting topics from Mullane. Normalisation of deviance; maintaining situational awareness... a smorgasbord!
I see the side menu of You tube has a few other interesting topics from Mullane. Normalisation of deviance; maintaining situational awareness... a smorgasbord!
We know working out how to get that first flight has been a mystery to many from just about day one with NASA, but George Abbey seemed to have taken the art to a new level... Especially giving Pinky Nelson, who took a sabbatical while others were doing the hard work getting the STS ready for flight getting that first one after Challenger. Where's the love?
Why am I not surprised Young didn't mention Mullane?
Thanks again for the video links. I've sent them onto my boy... he's still going through the system for flight training.
Why am I not surprised Young didn't mention Mullane?
I'll have to re-read Mullane's book but I remember him and Young having a pretty big disagreement about a new procedure during an abort to orbit using the OMS that would of been beneficial but Young was completely opposed to.Your memory serves you well. Mullane while doing his best with the Range Safety people came up with... well, just as you say. Mullane was banging his head against Young's stubbornness and he thought he was committing career suicide by pushing the OMS barrow...
I watched Millane's videos. Excellent stuff. Was he doing a seminar for some fire fighters? It's great that organisations will get these sorts of people in to explain these processes.
So we must not turn ourselves into passengers, lest we contribute in spreading a 30 million dollar airplane all across the runway. What a good story. Still, very hard to assert oneself when it's your first day!
Yes, I imagine these type of seminars would be great for empowering people in certain situations. I don't know if you have ever watched any Mayday episodes but I can recall a few episodes were intervention by the co-pilot could of avoided the accident. Of course it's only natural to think that the guy with way more flight time experience must know what he's doing but anybody can have a bad day. For example the KLM pilot who was too impatient to wait for proper take-off clearance which led to the horrible disaster on Tenerife island. He was one the company's most experienced pilots.
For example the KLM pilot who was too impatient to wait for proper take-off clearance which led to the horrible disaster on Tenerife island.Still the worst disaster ever, as I recall. I was a dumb midshipman at the RAAF base at East Sale when that happened.
Kind of unrelated but the episode I found the most disturbing was the one about the Russian Airbus crash with the pilots kids in the cockpit. I remember reading it in our newspaper when it happened but even though the article mentioned the kids, I never thought for a minute that their presence could of contributed to the accident. Watching the episode about it showed me how wrong I was. Like you said, there always seems to be additional factors that led to this disaster. I was pretty shocked to find out it was the simple action of the pilots son turning in one direction long enough to disengage the auto-pilot that started the whole thing. Of course the fact that the crew was unfamiliar with that certain part of the auto-pilot system didn't help. I guess the worst part was seeing them eventually recover but at too low an altitude to save the plane.
I must admit that episode left me a bit shaken for longer then I'm used to. It was constantly on my mind for a few weeks after watching it. It just seemed like such a senseless accident that should never of happened.
I found the most disturbing was the one about the Russian Airbus crash with the pilots kids in the cockpit.What a shocker!
Of course the fact that the crew was unfamiliar with that certain part of the auto-pilot system didn't help.Was it the case if they had just taken their hands off the yoke, the autopilot would have corrected the whole sorry mess? Maybe that was different one.
Yes, your right that if the crew had remembered their training and simply released the control yokes, the recovery system would of automatically kicked in and saved the plane.
I'll have to check out the Erebus accident later. We are in Disney World right now so off to take in some rides.
We are in Disney World right now so off to take in some rides.And you're posting? You need some balance! ;) Have a ride on Space Mountain for me. share
Well I made it to day 8 of our 9 day vacation. Pretty good for me. Lol. Heading home soon.
shareThe commander's position was on the left of the LM. The hinge for the hatch was on the right hand side. When the hatch was opened, it blocked the lunar module pilot's position. So Neil had to get out first so that Buzz could shut the hatch, move over to Neil's side, open the hatch again and exit the LM.
It was really not possible for Buzz to get out first. This was explained in the episode.
The restitution of life is no great feat. A variety of deaths may well enter into your punishment
It was really not possible for Buzz to get out first. This was explained in the episode.True, but as Al Bean has pointed out, they could have easily swapped places after landing, before putting on the PLSS...