"It's not a matter of having no rights. It is a matter of still be subject to the rule of law."
The rule of law prohibits the government from shooting you while you are in your home and have committed no crime, other than to worship in an alternative religion. The feds violated the rule of law.
The rule of law prohibits use of military personnel for domestic law enforcement purposes (Posse Commitatus Act). The feds violated the rule of law.
The rule of law is that, unless something weird is going on, the County Sheriff is the highest "ranking" lawman in the county. The feds violated the rule of law.
The rule of law says that when you call the local police/sheriff about armed home-invaders shooting at you, your family, and your children, that the Sheriff will be legally allowed to respond to the site, and investigate the crime. The feds violated the rule of law.
There was no "rule of law" involved here - it was naked aggression, and the rule of force.
"You still think these weapons magically appeared during the fight."
There is evidence that some of the legally owned firearms may have been modified by the Davidians during the siege. There is also evidence that improvised explosive devices were created during the siege. This is not magic. This is simply putting two or more legally owned items together in such a way that it creates something that is no longer legal. For example, it is perfectly legal to own gasoline, rags, bottles, and matches, but when you combine them to create a molotov cocktail and set it on fire, you have violated the law.
"The ATF were told the Davidians were hoarding weapons, so of course the ATF would come in armed. "
"Hoarding weapons"? I'm not sure what you mean by this - how many weapons make up a "hoard"? Does my kitchen knife set count - it has something like 8 big knives for cooking, and 8 more steak knives? I used to own a motorcycle and two cars, was I "hoarding" motor vehicles? Would the DMV have been justified in assaulting my family's home and shooting people if they thought I might have illegally modified one of the emission systems so it wouldn't pass smog?
Since several of the Davidians were licensed firearms dealers, it makes sense that they would have a large inventory of firearms. This also means that the ATF could call and schedule a routine inspection of their inventory and paperwork, and didn't need to shoot their way into the place.
"The leader of a doomsday cult who think he's the messiah is raping kids. What would you do in that situation?"
Under YOUR rules, the ATF and FBI should start burning down Catholic churches with their congregations inside, since Catholicism is a religion that prophecies and "end-time", with a leader who thinks he is God's special messenger on Earth, and they have a long history of widespread child sexual abuse. Using your logic, even if the church members didn't personally commit any crimes, they are "guilty" of being members of a cult whose leaders (not just one, but many) have sexually abused (not even married) young children for decades, and the church hierarchy has actively covered it up and allowed the perpetrators to move to new hunting grounds, so they could continue their attacks on young children. And if the church members do happen to commit any crimes while trying to survive and escape the attacks by the feds, they should obviously be charged with those "crimes" as well.
What I would do, operating under the rule of law, would be to have Child Protective Services investigate any complaints/reports of child abuse or endangerment. If there was enough evidence/probable cause for a warrant, I would get a warrant from the appropriate court. If evidence suggested that one member of a community was violating the law, and not others, I would try to limit any hazardous interactions to times and places when that individual was isolated. If my surveillance showed that that one member was often away from the community, by himself, at regular times each day, I would serve the warrant during that activity, when the likelihood of endangering any members of the public was lowest. I would also coordinate and involve the appropriate local authorities in my actions - particularly if the suspect had an established respect for those local authorities. I certainly wouldn't trap the family inside of their home and then burn the home down with the children inside it, if my goal was to "protect the children".
Under the rule of law, statutory rape would be a matter for the state Child Protective Services department to investigate and prosecute, not the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. Under the rule of law, the warrant would have to include those allegations. Under rule of law, state, county, or local law enforcement would have served the warrant, and arrested Koresh, and only Koresh. The County Sheriff has publicly stated, on the record, that he could have easily have arrested Koresh when Koresh was out on his daily run, with no need to endanger the rest of the Davidian community, and the federal authorities were aware of that situation. The decision to perform a "raid" on the compound demonstrated a criminal lack of planning on the part of the ATF agents who planned the raid, and that decision was made on the basis of creating a public spectacle, even if it endangered public safety. This choice by the ATF was a matter of criminal negligence at best, and more likely a case of criminal conspiracy to violate the civil rights of all in the Davidian community, as well as to commit violent crimes against them.
As to "doomsday cults" most major religions predict an end-time. Are we now going to criminalize and deny first amendment protection to any religion that believes in an end of the world scenario? This would include not only "fringe" religious groups like Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, and Seventh Day Adventists, but also larger faith groups like Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Episcopalians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Global Waring believers, and most scientists.
Also, Koresh didn't think or claim that he was "THE" messiah, he claimed he was "A" messiah (a man specially anointed to lead the faithful)- just as most religious leaders do.
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csstrowbridge
11 years ago
"The rule of law prohibits the government from shooting you while you are in your home and have committed no crime, other than to worship in an alternative religion."
And raping young girls and stockpiling illegal weapons.
The fact that you continue to ignore reality leaves me with no choice but to kindly ask you to *beep* off and die.
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joedogboy68
11 years ago
There is no evidence that any illegal weapons were stockpiled. A fact that you continue to deny.
As to allegations about Koresh's sexual behavior - as I have already said, that would be cause for the appropriate agency to investigate and prosecute, and would only apply to Koresh himself. There was no reason for the feds to attack the entire community in order to arrest one person, who could easily have been picked up outside of their property, when he regularly went running.
Of course, you keep ignoring those parts of my posts as well.
And now you call for me to die - just because you are angry that I respond to your arguments with counter-arguments based on the facts? Yes, that tells us a lot about you, and your (lack of) character.
The simple fact is this: if the FBI wanted to help and protect the children, they would not have shot people trying to leave the compound, would not have set the building on fire when the children were in it, and would have allowed firefighters and ambulance crews access to the scene so they could to try to save the children.
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csstrowbridge
11 years ago
"There is no evidence that any illegal weapons were stockpiled. A fact that you continue to deny."
It is not a fact. They had illegal weapons... That is absolutely evidence that they had illegal weapons. You can pretend these weapons weren't illegal before the siege, but you can't pretend there is no evidence they didn't have illegal weapons before hand. At this point, the burden of proof is one yuo.
"As to allegations about Koresh's sexual behavior - as I have already said, that would be cause for the appropriate agency to investigate and prosecute, and would only apply to Koresh himself."
If parents were given Koresh permission to rape their children, which is what the allegations were, then the entire community would be under investigation.
"Of course, you keep ignoring those parts of my posts as well."
That's cause your posts are stupid.
Allegations were that Koresh was part of a cult that was committing crimes that include child rape and stockpiling illegal weapons.
You think child services should have handled this, but they are not equipped to deal with a group stockpiling weapons.
You think only Koresh was responsible for the crimes, except the families were given him person to rape their kids.
You think they were just another religious group, but they were a doomsday cult preparing for a war. What the *beep* do you think would have happened if their leader was arrested? Do you think they would have said, "Okay." and that would have been the end of it?
No one is that stupid.
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joedogboy68
11 years ago
"At this point, the burden of proof is on you."
In a free country, like the United States, the burden of proof lies with the authorities. Until proven guilty, we are supposed to be presumed innocent.
You like to talk about "rule of law" but as soon as it's convenient for you, you throw a nasty sounding label on someone you don't like, and then forget all about the rule of law. The fact is that, according to the SCOTUS, all legal residents of the United States are supposed to be treated equally under the law, which includes freedom to choose their own religion, freedom to be secure int heir homes and property, the right to due process, and the presumption of innocence until guilt is proven in a court of law.
You keep bringing up allegations about Koresh and the children as a justification for the violations of law and civil rights committed by the ATF and FBI in this incident. Never mind the fact that there was no concern about the children until days into the siege. Never mind that the FBI murdered all of the children after creating a situation where it was impossible for the children to escape, and then subjecting them to torture (the sound effects blasted into the compound for purposes of sleep deprivation and disorientation of the people inside) for days on end. Whether they did this deliberately, or through a highly improbable series of criminally negligent/stupid decisions, the simple fact is that the FBI murdered those children, and didn't do a damn thing to protect them. This makes the "think of the children" argument a bit ridiculous.
"If parents were given Koresh permission to rape their children, which is what the allegations were, then the entire community would be under investigation."
There is a difference between "investigation" and what happened at the Davidian compound. This attack was not an investigation, it was an extermination. Also, there would be cause to investigate Koresh and any families who were suspected of providing underage sexual partners to Koresh, and to prosecute those people based on evidence found during those investigations. There would not be cause to shoot and burn an entire community based on allegations that a few members may have committed crimes.
Let's turn your logic to another religious group where child sexual abuse has been widespread for decades, and where church leaders have actively conspired to protect the abusers, and see how it fits: "If Catholics were giving priests permission to rape their children, which is what the allegations were, then the entire Catholic church would be under investigation." Have we gone into Catholic churches, monastaries, and living quarters with guns blazing? have we carpet bombed the Vatican?
"You think they were just another religious group, but they were a doomsday cult preparing for a war."
That description fits many religious groups. Many wars throughout history have religion as one of the major contributing factors.
"What the *beep* do you think would have happened if their leader was arrested? Do you think they would have said, "Okay." and that would have been the end of it?"
They would probably have hired a lawyer and fought the charges in court. They would have gone to the media (which they would have actually had access to, if they weren't being held at gunpoint by the ATF and FBI with the media held away from them - also at gunpoint). They would have held prayer vigils and may even have protested at the jail and/or courthouse. Being arrested may even have raised his profile as a religious leader, allowing him to write letters from jail - joining a long line of famous religious leaders who were jailed for standing by their faiths. If he lost his case at trial, they would probably have appealed. The trial and appeals would have changed the composition of the church community - some people would have moved on, others may have increased or decreased their convictions, and some may even have become fanatical. While it is possible that, at some point, they may have been angry and the most fanatical may have decided to perform some violent action, that point would probably be after they had exhausted all legal avenues.
By making an armed attack on the community, the ATF (and later the FBI) created a situation where the Davidians were MOST LIKELY to take up arms - defending their lives, their families, their home, and their church. Throughout the siege, the Davidians used minimal force, passed up opportunities to kill many federal agents, and continued to appeal to the legitimate authorities for enforcement of the law. They also tried to communicate with the media and the American people, yet were denied that basic right as well.
The truly sad thing is that you yourself are probably "different" in some way, and you probably belong to a group that could also be targeted, demonized, and attacked by the government in an unconstitutional manner. And when that happens, people like me are going to be the ones crying foul, while other people like you will be cheering on the government as they attack, shoot, and burn you and your family.
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