MovieChat Forums > Mononoke-hime (1997) Discussion > I just can't like Lady Eboshi

I just can't like Lady Eboshi

posted 8 years ago by sachasc
7 replies | jump to latest

Before you go all "You just didn't understand the movie" on me, let me state that I know what the movie was trying to say. I'm saying it failed in delivering its message.

Eboshi wants to provide for her people, right? And the way she plans on doing that is depleting all their resources, which will do more harm than good in the long term. If you hack down the entire forest and mine all the mountains, what's left? They'll all die slowly and painfully without the resources they've come to depend on.

Not only that, she's a walking embodiment of colonialist self-entitlement. She has no qualms about seizing and occupying land that isn't hers and killing its natives (the animals). You might say her interests were humanitarian, but I beg to differ. She only recruited people willing to serve her. Of course society's outcasts would pledge loyalty to the first person who threw them a bone. Her main objective was manufacturing firearms to further her imperialist agenda.

We as the audience are supposed to believe that San and Eboshi shouldn't hate each other because hatred is destructive and war solves nothing. We're supposed to think both of them are partly right and partly wrong. Again, this message falls flat because San is completely justified in hating Eboshi. If someone invaded your home, destroyed it, and took whatever they wanted, wouldn't you hate them too? No matter what Eboshi's motives were, her actions were 100% wrong. San acted to defend her home. Where's the wrongdoing there?

The message we were supposed to take away is that the preservation of nature vs. the progression of human civilization isn't as black and white as we think. But Eboshi is so unlikable and her actions are so destructive that I saw San as the hero and Eboshi as the villain. If the movie wanted to take a balanced approach, it shouldn't have made Eboshi so vile.

[–] carbonated_turtle 8 years ago

I don't think you're supposed to like her until the end when she realizes they can live in a peaceful village alongside the forest. Even though Ashitaka seems okay with her for most of the film, it's pretty clear she's not a good person, which is confirmed when she won't give up her hunt for the Forest Spirit even when her people needed her.

But there is a strong message throughout the entire film about hate and how destructive it can be. Eboshi being such an awful person and Ashitaka not cutting her head off shows that he's not letting the hatred win.

[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

. If you hack down the entire forest and mine all the mountains, what's left? They'll all die slowly and painfully without the resources they've come to depend on.

Not necessarily. After all, we live in cities with no resources around us. That's where commerce and trade come in.

San is completely justified in hating Eboshi.

Except San hates all humans, even refusing to acknowledge herself as one. That's how far her hate has spread. San was not always defending her home. The first time we see her, she's attacking a group of villagers bringing in supplies: food, clothing, resources, etc. She and her wolves kill without remorse.

I don't find Eboshi fully vile or San fully justified. They were both wrong to continue in their current courses.

Seize the moment, 'cause tomorrow you might be dead.

[–] desertgaara1995 8 years ago

Good for you. The film doesn't force you to like her.

[–] ace2 (572) 3 months ago

You are 100% correct. She is portrayed as regal and wise, but that did not match her completely unsustainable approach. If her people were not allowed to live safely and share a replaceable amount of the resources it would have made more sense. As is trying to kill the god was a metaphor for burning the forest - literally biting the hand that is feeding you.

[–] Ace_Spade (9547) 3 months ago

She's one of my favourite characters in all of Miyazaki's films. Despite the unsustainability of her plans, it's a pretty accurate critique of the way humans (some humans) interact with nature. But, because he isn't a hack, Miyazaki didn't just make her a strawman, he gave her causes to fight for.

What I like about the character, and what makes her sympathetic to me, is the fact that she isn't obsessed with profits or progress for its own sake, and she doesn't necessarily hate nature, she just wants to built up humanity. She wants to be a voice and a powerful force on the side of downtrodden women and lepers. She is willing to sacrifice herself and the old gods to save those people who she sees hurting and vulnerable.

At the end of the day, of course, she is a villain and she is wrong for ignoring the forest and its spirits. She is wrong for wanting to destroy the gods and lash out at that which she does not understand. She is short-sighted. But that doesn't mean she's irredeemable or wrong all the time.

To me, this is how to make a point about the real world AND how to write a great villain.

[–] ace2 (572) 3 months ago

I take your point... however killing the god to get the head purely for money, just tipped the balance too far. It seemed out of character for how her character was developed. For what you are saying to work everyone involved has to be partly right and partly wrong. This gives rise to complex motivations that make you realize things are not black and white. In this case that god was completely innocent and peaceful.

At least the wolves were vicious and violent and there I could relate to the conflict from both sides.

[–] Ace_Spade (9547) 3 months ago

Eboshi just prioritized her ideals for humanity more than she did the forest spirits. The message of the movie, of course, is about harmony between peoples and worlds, so I agree that Eboshi is wrong, but from her perspective, she is correct. She believes she should be doing what she's doing.

I don't think of the god as innocent or peaceful. I think of it as separate from humans. Innocence or goodness aren't really traits it possesses because it's outside of our paradigms. I think of it as more wild and wildness itself. I think of it as benevolent towards humanity, but not in the standard good/bad way.

You are correct: the wolves were more violent and aggressive. The boars and the apes were even moreso. However, that violence is directed towards humans because they perceive humans as the enemy. But I think Eboshi puts the whole thing into one big lump; to her, all spirits are violent, wild, and aggressive - and anti-human.

Finally, I think Eboshi is motivated by the cruelty she sees around her, and in this way: she sees the suffering and pain of her fellow humans, and she is angry at the gods for allowing this suffering to occur. She believes that the gods are culpable for the plight of the women and lepers she saves and protects. That also motivates her reasoning. Is there anything that alludes to this perspective in the movie? I actually can't remember if Eboshi says anything about blaming gods for mankind's problems.