In the scene where she's taking a shower and the Master Chief comes in.. Did I understand correctly its that's perfectly OK with her to have him watch her? She doesn't even seem surprised. I just thought that was unnatural, what kind of female marine would be like that?
I'm just confused.. I saw this movie on TV, so they may have cut out a few seconds..
I think, given the fact she has been around blokes for years while working in the Navy, she has become a tough woman physically and mentally working with and against them. so in my opinion, being given that task to do with the Marines, at the point she has her hair shaved off, etc, she will prob have become 'one of the lads' because as she said - she didnt want to be treated any different - so his presence while she is naked would def not affect her, otherwise it would have shown a vulnerable side if she had have, esp at that point in the movie.
Basically, how she feels about the Master Chief, she wouldnt really give a sh*t him seeing her naked. her determination to see the training through is more important.
I want to all men!
[deleted]
What is so vulnerable about having a separate shower for women?
If this is how it is in the real navy, where do I sign up? :)
I mean, okay, so the Chief had a guy have timetables for her and them to shower seperately, but what I mean is vulnerability from an 'embarrassed he is seeing/saw her naked' point of view for her to quickly try and cover herself - certainly my view anyhow.
she does not fear him.
I want to all men!
Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks for clearing it up.
But wasn't the point of the scene that she couldn't show (by cringing or trying to cover herself with her hands) that she was afraid or embarrassed by the Chief's presence.
Of course she didn't like it, but showing weakness in this way would weaken her position and strengthen the position of people who felt that women were "too weak" to be a SEAL. The Chief knew this. He deliberately was trying to intimidate her and test her (again).
He could have waited until she came out of the shower with a towel. But he wouldn't have waited if it had been a male trainee, so (since she insisted on being treated like the other trainees, "no better and no worse"), he didn't (and shouldn't) show her that consideration.
She did her best to try and show that it didn't intimidate her, and was successful in holding her difficult position as "just another trainee."
For those of you how haven't gone through this type of selection training, it's impossible to complete the course without help and support from your fellow trainees. The course is set up that way. O'Neill knew this, and that's why she refused the "special consideration" and requested that she be allowed to go through the training "just like the other trainees."
When she convinced the other trainees (in SERE training) that she could take it, and convinced the instructors she could not only take it, but lead, she finally had gotten to the real position of "just another trainee."
"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Good points Tommykins-1. I actually wondered about that scene too because I would have been wierded out....then again since it was Viggo then I wouldn't mind showing off the goods. :)
"You're not paid to think"
Yeah, he was charming, wasn't he. But it's nice to have a woman verify what I assumed (about his charisma as the Chief).
But in the real world, the Chief would just be some muscle-bound thug who was making your (her) life hell. That's what she had to deal with.
"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."
Cute as Viggo is, he had no right to show her that disrespect; there are other ways of "testing" trainees. If I were in her position, I would've tried to turn away from him without appearing "weak", but I wouldn't have showed off "the goods". If it wouldn't have gotten me kicked out of the military, I would have said something along the lines of "So is this how you get your sex gratification, by peeping at the trainees? I wonder if the men like that".
shareI think tommykins-1 is right on the money - the chief was trying intimidation, and it didn't work.
A couple of "minor" points, that is, minor if you haven't been in the service! SEALS are navy personnel, not marines. In addition, - GI Joe is primarily slang for army types, so its distaff usage in the title is a misnomer. I'm sure the producers thought it was catchy, which is far more important than accuracy.
I'm sure for every potential nude female enlistee, you'll be seeing 20 to 50x as many guys on the toilet and in the shower. Still, I was briefly considering the Navy as well.
ORANGE for all
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By treating her exactly the way he would treat a male soldier, the MC expected Jordan to become uncomfortable and maybe cover up; when she didn't, he became uncomfortable. The scene represents a temporary power shift -- he is forced to respond to her (via the involuntary reaction of staring) as an attractive woman, which gives her a very basic sort of power over him. Her query to him about whether the conversation has ended (so she can put on some clothes) has the slightest hint of a taunt.
It's been a while since I saw this film, so I'm not 100% of the chronology, but I believe that this exchange is one of the reasons why he was so hell-bent to torture her in the training exercise toward the end -- first because she got him to show "weakness," and second because her femininity was going to be used to demoralize and break her fellow soldiers.
I guess they both understood the importance of this sort of situation during her training. The Master Chief was quite a pr*ck to the trainees, but I believe he had their best interests in mind.
Imagine if a female SEAL were captured during wartime. I think being leered at while showering would be the least of her worries, as things could get rather brutal, don't you think? So the Master Chief is testing O'Neil, and she knows it, so they both go through with the socially awkward situation without blinking.
I wouldn't count peeping at her in the shower as a "socially awkward" thing as it was obviously something they could have avoided; he was just being an intimidating jerk. Male coaches of female basketball teams don't visit the girls' lockerroom because that sort of thing isn't necessary and neither was what he did. It was hardly a mandatory thing she would have had to get used to.
shareYes, intimidation WAS the point of him invading her privacy, which in normal society would be "awkward," or more precisely, socially improper. If she couldn't handle this, she wouldn't be able to handle the even worse things that would happen if she were captured during war.
For anyone who doesn't understand, if she were captured, she would be subject to brutal dehumanization, torture, rape, starvation, and as we saw in the Iraqi War, made to stand in the nude while being tormented by her captors. Does anyone not understand this?
The shower scene is a small test, one of many, to see how mentally tough she is. She passed the test.
I don't think he did it to toughen her; for one thing, although it was humiliating, it wouldn't compare to what the Iraqis would do to her. There really IS no way to prepare someone for rape or torture, so mistreating someone in a humiliating way and calling it training is ridiculous. If anyone walked in on a woman or girl in the shower and afterward said, "Okay, now I know you could handle rape or torture in the future!", his excuse would be very flimsy. If the guy in this movie had groped Demi Moore and said he was preparing her for the possibility of rape, no one would buy that either. It would be seen as what it was: sexual harassment, NOT a necessary training method.
share...although it was humiliating, it wouldn't compare to what the Iraqis would do to her. There really IS no way to prepare someone for rape or torture, so mistreating someone in a humiliating way and calling it training is ridiculous.You can't actually rape and torture trainees, so all you can do is give them little tests to at least weed out a bunch of the weaker recruits. If they didn't have this scene in the movie, I would have felt something missing from her training, which was meant to be a little different from the other guys'. Did you not feel more confident about O'Neil's toughness after seeing that she didn't react like a "dainty" girly?
Yes, Viggo's talented; I just didn't like his character's actions or motives. They were definetly sexist; I highly doubt that the army had the male soldiers treated in the same way.
shareI wonder if men would mind if a women walked in the shower with them and started staring and saying do you need some tweezers for that?
Ashley~
http://www.myspace.com/39022256
You mean like female reporters do when they walk into a professional football team's locker room like they can these days? Do you remember in "On Any Given Sunday" when Cameron Diaz came striding into the Miami Sharks dressing room when it was full of nude football players??
You ignore it, that's all. Only the weak and insecure whine about "what a pervert" he is. But the Chief was a healthy handsome guy looking at an attractive female under his command who was nude and who stood facing him. So Whitespirit, where's the perversion in that? It may have been unprofessional, or discourteous, but perverted?
I repeat, he was treating her as he would a male trainee. Do you think that a Master Chief would politely wait outside the shower worried that a male trainee would feel his privacy has been violated? Wait until the trainee finally came out with a towel discretely wrapped around before delivering his news/command about the trainee's new responsibilities??
Don't get your own modesty mixed up in your judgment about how Seal instructors treat candidates under instruction.
"Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" Will Rogers
Ok, it wasn't perverted, but it was disrespectful and unnecessary, just like those reporter sharks you mentioned. No, he would not have waited for a male trainee, but she's not a male! Treating her like an equal doesn't mean forgetting that she's a woman and you can't honestly tell me that he looked at her body the way he would at a male's. He WAS treating her worse than a male trainee because a male trainee wouldn't have cared if another man saw him in the shower, so that reason totally falls flat. Also, I don't know why you said "he's a handsome, healthy guy looking at an attractive female." Um, what do their looks have to do with it? You think the fact that they were both attractive made it okay? If you meant that he was looking at her because she was attractive, that proves my point that he was not acting professionally. His own handsomeness has absolutely nothing to do with anything, so I don't know why you pointed it out; it's not as though his looks made his actions okay. I don't think most professional Seal instructors would have pulled that; male and female soldiers are generally separated from the opposite sex in personal places like sleep quarters and bathrooms for obvious reasons. Even in boot camp, kids do have people watching them in the showers, but those people are always the same sex as they are. Maybe it wasn't perverted, but don't try to tell me that that's normal procedure. By the way, I'm not whining and I am not weak; I just don't believe in disrespecting other people or "ignoring" disrespect and letting others get away with it. If any guy did that to me, he'd be nursing his goods for the rest of the week. If any woman tried to impose on my husband or son's privacy, she'd be majorly sorry for it too; heck, some reporter sharks need to be wiped off the face of the earth as it is.
share[deleted]
what makes you think I'd stick around? I'd knee him and run! He wouldn't have time to punch me back. Furthermore, I think you can agree that women and men are equals in GENERAL without thinking that they're equal in strength. In church, for example, we think women can have the same opportunities and positions as men, but would a guy walk into the girl's bathroom? No. Equal does NOT mean the sexes are the same and anyone who tried to use the equality thing as justification for Viggo's behavior in this scene would be pathetic; PLEASE! A guy peeping at a girl in the shower and then saying, "What? I'm treating you like an equal!" Uh, bull! By watching her in the shower, he was doing just the opposite, treating her like someone inferior whose position didn't even matter. And vice versa: women shouldn't be allowed to walk into a men's shower either, in the military or otherwise; hey, I believe in equal respect and if a football player gave a female reporter a broken nose because she strolled right on into the locker room, I'd applaud him! Respect works both ways. A woman in the military expecting men to give her privacy in the shower is NOT the same as expecting them to hold the door open for her. That's the material point: treating women as equals doesn't mean treating them like "one of the guys". Even if I wasn't modest myself, I STILL wouldn't let a guy watch me naked because let's face it, there's no way he could look at me the same way he'd look at a man.
share[deleted]
Doesn't matter if her head didn't look attractive; her body was still the same. Maybe it's not quite the same as a strip club, but he still wasn't giving her any respect. In fact, I would have respected him more if he HAD gone to a strip club because those women expect to be looked at and allow men to look at them in public; it's not the same as invading someone's privacy in the shower. Just because rape would be a lot worse doesn't mean what he did was okay; if a guy I knew had to tell me something and I was in the shower, he'd wait outside, not barge in one me, and he would do this because he respected my privacy, not because he didn't think of me as an equal. If a guy did intrude on me the way Viggo did in this scene, the line "well, it's not like I'm raping you" wouldn't get him anywhere with me. I'm not saying what Viggo did in ANY way compares to rape, but that doesn't excuse it; to me, that's like a person who's arrested for assault and battery saying, "well, what's the big deal? I punched him out, it's not like I killed him". Would the court let him go because his crime didn't compare to something a lot worse? Nope.
share[deleted]
Yes, it was a public shower. However, military protocol has women and men showering separately; a man's presence during a woman's showering time, even in the military, would be uncalled for and unusual. So, while you're correct that men would see each other in the shower in the military, it would not be usual for men and WOMEN to see each other in the shower since separate shower times are mandatory. The fact that it was a public shower doesn't mean both sexes would be there together; there are public showers in girls' and boys' locker rooms too, but that doesn't mean both sexes shower together because locker rooms are meant for one sex each. In regards to her looking like a man, sure she would with her army clothes on; in the shower, though, with everything revealed, it's painfully obvious she's a woman and, whether he finds her attractive or not, he couldn't see her with the same indifference as he'd see a guy. However, when I said that Viggo was "peeking", I was not intending to say that he was a pervert or was even looking at her because she was attractive. My point was, his presence was inappropriate and disrespecful whether she cared or not, and I found the excuses some have made on this board for him, such as the "well, it didn't compare to rape" thing, rather silly. I don't compare it to rape; I just don't like it, and no one can honestly tell me he did that to prove she was an "equal." Women don't have to become men to be regarded as equal to them, which means that separate bathrooms and showers are essential.
share[deleted]
Separate locker rooms or not, there were separate shower TIMES. Someone here has said that they were in the navy, there was one huge shower room, and the men and women showered at separate times. As to whether she minded his presence, that's a matter of opinion; some on this board say that she did and that she pretended not to because she was trying to prove she wouldn't succumb to intimidation. Whatever her feelings, the bottom line for me is that it didn't really matter because he went in not caring how she would have felt; he never cared one way or another.
shareWhitespirit, I'm with Ultimate on this.
It was me who earlier said that O'Neil would have pretended to not mind his presence BECAUSE she was a trainee and was under the Chief's authority.
In order to be accepted as a SEAL candidate, she could not request special treatment or consideration because of her sex. In order to survive and complete the course of training, she had to have the support of the other candidates and she wouldn't get it by being given special favors. Hence the head shaving and moving into the male barracks.
Her appearance or attractiveness had nothing to do with it. The Chief had an order (change in her status re: her training) to deliver, and as a continuing test of intimidation, walked in on her in the shower. He would not have waited for a male candidate to finish his shower and discretely wrap a towel around before delivering his message, so he didn't wait for her, either.
He even went to the point of looking her up and down to further intimidate her.
She gritted her teeth and acted like it didn't bother her. Why, because she wanted to be taken seriously as a candidate.
You should try to move beyond the regular teen-man and teen-woman sexual frames of mind and see the positions the two of them were in, Instructor and a candidate who is constantly being tested.
"Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" Will Rogers
I'm aware that he was trying to train her; I just don't agree that it was a necessary way of showing her that she was an "equal" AND, if he was trying to train her, it does not mean that, having completed her training, he would have continued to do that. Intimidation training? Whatever. Just don't try to get me to believe that IN GENERAL female soldiers have thier chiefs walking in on them because they have to be treated the same as males or that a chief, no matter how professional, would see a naked woman the same as a man; that ain't normal procedure.
shareThey were SEALS, a big difference, "The most intense military training know to man." The candidates have to succeed at meeting very high standards of performance, in leadership ability, at functioning at high levels of exhaustion, absorbing very technical training, and keeping their composure under very high levels of stress.
You insist on comparing 18 week SEAL candidate training with regular military boot camp and 2nd eight weeks, then assignment to some job in a military office. There is a difference.
As for the Chief continuing her "intimidation" after she completed her training, she had not completed training. She had only gotten through Hell Week, and she and the other candidates had an additional 17 weeks of training to complete.
After they graduated and got their BUD/S badges, then the training, intimidation, and testing stopped and they were trained SEALS.
Of course there would be some harassment after they joined their teams. They would be "meats," and would be going through OJT until they made PO. Then they'd be the experts, and the new "meats" would be the team rookies.
Being a operational SEAL really is more difficult than candidate training.
"Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?" Will Rogers
I know she hadn't completed her training; my point was that I doubted he'd continue treating her that way once she HAD (and if he did, he'd be dead wrong). Was this movie based around a time when women being in the military was unusual and/or new? (If it was, I forgot.)Plus, it seemed like people were saying different things about the scene here; some said he was trying to train her in intimidation (which I don't like, but I do understand the motive behind) while others said he was doing that simply because he was trying to treat her like she was a man (which I think is ridiculous). One idea contradicts the other; if he did that because she was still in training and he was trying to test her and toughen her, then that would mean she passed the test by not showing that it bothered her and he wouldn't do it again, whereas if he was doing that simply to treat her like a guy, then that would indicate that he'd continue that sort of treatment even after she completed training. I'm going with the first idea.
shareMe, too.
"Friends help you move, real friends help you move bodies."
Whitespirit,
The reoccurring theme in your argument is that he "disrespected her privacy and that he disrespected her"! Well, duh! Disrespecting the trainees is part of the whole package! And they disrespect the guys too! You think being called "worm sperm” is respectful. You think beating them down physically and emotionally is respectful? You want respect, join the Air Force, not the SEALS! When they are in the desert on some mission do you think that they are going to be hauling along a port-a-pottie so that she can have her "privacy" when she has to tinkle!
The whole point of the training is to mentally and physically break them so they can weed out the pansies from the from the people who might possibly make it home from dangerous missions and possible injury, capture, rape and torture. They want the fighters! Not someone who keeps pissing and moaning about their privacy being violated!
Really! How far do you think some woman who kept screaming "sexual harrassment" from such a thing would get during such training. Teamwork is key to how they need to operate in training, as well as missions. She would have never gotten thru the training if she didn't get at least a few of the guys to respect her by handling herself as she did. She wouldn’t made it thru the training either if she didn’t get the master chief to respect her also. Like one of the trainees said, if they want you out, you’re out, so if you want to be the lone female in such a group you’d better prove you can hang with the boys! All of them!
As someone previously said, you keep trying to apply conventional rules of behavior here when they very obviously don’t apply!
MeiLing,
I've already been through this entire argument with other posters. My main point was not that he disrespected her, but that he disrespected her in a different way than soldiers usually are because she's not one of the boys. Hanging with the boys doesn't make you one of the boys and staring at someone naked doesn't prove one way or another that they can fight. I never expected her to squeal or anything like that, I just didn't like it; there's nothing wrong with that. In boot camp, kids are disrespected 24/7 in every way imaginable, but adults of the opposite sex do not walk in on them naked for obvious reasons; that's crossing the norm of typical military training and discipline. Either way, if you'd read all my posts here, I already said I came to the conclusion that Viggo's intentions were not as bad as I originally thought. As far as I'm concerned, the argument's over.
Hanging with the boys doesn't make you one of the boys and staring at someone naked doesn't prove one way or another that they can fight.
That's half right and half wrong. Half right b/c yeah, there's no link conerning seeing ppl naked and fighting. Half wrong b/c when one says "fight" in war, war isn't just winning in hand-to-hand combat, shooting better, or being the better tank driver. War also involves being mentally and pyscologically tough in addition to being in good physical form. Can this Really be a real issue regarding what Navy SEALs experience on the field? It's possible. They need to be quick and stealthy to survive and get their mission accomplished. If she needs to relieve herself then, giving her privacy may not be an option, so her male comrades would see her at least partially nude. She would have to be "one of the guys" b/c in the movie since she's the only woman in the Navy SEAL which was traditionally a men only environment so this issue wouldn't have been considered before, but is now a potential issue. ANYTHING, such as "weirdness" or unexpected situations that cause a shift of mind can be dangerous in warfare. That can cost lives. Better that this be realized in a shower rather then when the stakes are higher. That would be the simple reasoning as I see it.
But even then, this kind of stuff isn' tjust limited to the military. For example, a boy who's asked to work with 2 other guys to clean an entire grocery store did his job well and the manager later on gives him a job there doing inventory and help dealing with $, since he feels he would be a good fit. What does mopping floors and scrubbing a bathroom have to do with duties done in a day-to-day operation of a grocery store? Nothing directly, some of it does correlate..... 1) he did a thorough job, which shows he's commited, 2) he did it well which shows he knows how to get stuff done, and 3) since he had to work with 2 other ppl to get the job done, he has some communication and teamwork skills. Those traits apply to really any job. And while knowing how to actually DO your job is very important (you can only get so far with those traits if u don't kno how to manage a resturant, don't know anything about surgery, etc.), it's still a trait that adults in the workforce are assessed on.
Another example, if one were to get a degree, like in business or Electrical engineering, most Bacherlors degree courses also require some sort of core/foundation classes in addition to those that comprise of the study they pursue. An EE student may probably never need to know Greek mythology, history, how the economy works, italian, the rules of basketball, and a Bus. student may never end up using calculus 2, but these extra 'outside' courses serve as to make one's education more well rounded.
POint is, everything can be VERY relevant, and in the military, it's especially so.
ORANGE for all
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the point is: in seal training young trainees are being repressed by the trainers. Maybe the chief gave her an extra bad treatment bun in general he was an *beep* to everyone. He was testing everone to find some weak spots.
shareYou are obviously misandrous (hatred of men, in case you don't know what that means). "what makes you think I'd stick around? I'd knee him and run! He wouldn't have time to punch me back."
How about if I said the same thing, but the sexes reversed? A woman walks in on me showering, so I punch her in her tits and run! She wouldn't have time to punch me back.
How does that sound to you?
Actually in SERE training the male soldiers go through mock interrogations where they are stripped naked and have female interrogators. The comments from the women interrogators aren't very compimentary, if you know what I mean. The goal is to see how a soldier can deal with humiliation, although this part of the training is a bit controversial.
The shower scene with Moore was a bit of a play on this - instead of screamig and covering up she walks up to the chief and says something sarcastic, putter her in the dominant position.
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Hello People this is just a movie and the actors/actresses have to do what they are told!
Jonny Depp
http://www.zooreka.com/photo-272569.html
Let me see. How can I put this?
"I have never seen women wearing string-bikinis on a beach...
feeling awkward about it(not the ones looking like Demi Moore anyways)
A woman might sunbade topless for hours...
without ever feeling awkward about it"
It no doubt is like when you go to the doctor for a check-up and the doctor is a she. You know somewhere back in your mind that you've read a porn-mag short-story about just that incident but you bury it deep and act like your parents actually raised you to be a homo sapiens sapiens.
The whole premise of GI JANE is absurd. In reality in todays military female troops generally make a beeline for MEO for fairly minor allegations much less anything like this movie. Women are not in SF for the same reasons they are not in the NFL. Several nations have tried -- seriously-- such as ISREAL --to integrate women into SF it has never worked.
shareThere are forms of torture worse than rape, and they can be applied to both sexes.
share[deleted]
Well, w/o diving into deep research, IIRC, Isralean and Russian women did their fair share of sniping from WWII to more modern times (from readings, but also from that half remembered WWII film Enemy At The Gates). They killed enemy combatants which definately put them in a combat function. Dunno if it's still like that these days. If they are directly involved in combat, I'm guessing it would be in a limited capacity
Isralean women know how to handle uzis and similar such firearms, but again, whether if they use them often or not is another thing entirely.
ORANGE for all
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Combat is not the SAME as SOF - see my other post - THIS IS A CROCK !!!!!
shareSF is the upper 2-3% of troops: physically, mentally, and in each required discipline - hand-to-hand, strength, shooting, endurance, running, swimming, et al. There are some women approaching that 2-3% the exception proves the rule. Why are male and female sports are gender segregated -- to protect the men ????
share20 bucks says the Master Chief pictched a "master tent" :P
"Everyone's a critic...except people who still know how to kick back and ENJOY a movie..."
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She's not training for the Marines.
She is in the Navy and training to be
a seal.