Why didn't Hobbes just leave? - Fallen (1998) Discussion

[–] Fear_Street 18 years ago

Yeah I think it could be a mistake..or thats what I put it down to anyway as the other reasons just don't really go well...
I mean I just watched this movie again and I came on here to say exactly what you did!
But even if he did shoot Jonesy/Azazel and then get in his car and drive...it would go into the cat...right?

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[–] MrDarren 18 years ago

He couldn't drive away because Azazel was close enough to travel into his body. That's why he poisoned himself.

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[–] Fear_Street 18 years ago

Yeah but he should have kiled Azazel, poisoned himself and then gotten into the car...that way Azazel would either not be able to get into the car or get in and enter Hobbes...Hobbes would die from the poison and the cat wouldn't be able to touch him as he was inside the car...so the soul of Azazel would therefore die!
Now hows that?

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[–] j_jamison 18 years ago

Hows that? I'm... rather confused... your argument doesn't make sense... Azazel will still possess the cat, and Hobbes would still be dead!

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[–] Fear_Street 18 years ago

Woops...ok...Hobbes should have let Azazel enter him and then get in the car, the poison from the cigarette would kill him. ANd the cat wouldn't be able to get in the car.
Surely that would be a way of doing it, right?

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[–] cubie_hole 18 years ago

He killed himself because he didn't know if he could make it a safe distance before Jonezy/Azazel died. He just knows the distance he can travel, but doesn't know how fast he can travel the distance, so, he kills himself to make sure that Azazel has no way to escape. To bad he didn't know about the cat.

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[–] Fear_Street 18 years ago

We know...
But we're just posting thoughts on how he could have executed his plan much better etc.

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[–] IQpierce 18 years ago

The ending does feel a little unfair because we had no previous indication that Azazel could possess aminals.

So the real solution would be to somehow imprison Azazel, then somehow transport him to the middle of a desert (or the arctic tundra) alone with him, then leave him to starve to death while you get the heck out of there.

I agree that I was very surprised that Hobbes killed himself - he could have just driven away, and gotten 1/6 miles (i.e. 500 cubits) away LONG before Jonesy died. The cat thing still would have happened of course, but anyway his plan was flawed.

Excellent movie though! There will never be another villain like that one!

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[–] usagihunter101 18 years ago

Actually, earlier in the movie he did possess a cat.

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[–] iankylewallace 18 years ago

Well...all they have to do is nuke the demon and hope to God that he can't posess cockroaches...

Problem solved...

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[–] site_man 17 years ago

Motorboat with slow leak into the middle of the Atlantic

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[–] 17 years ago

[deleted]

[–] sonobor 13 years ago

I thought the same thing but . . . Then I figured he killed himself since his life was over anyway. I mean he would have gone to jail for murder and he was too virtuous to just run away and become a fugitive. Plus it made a great ending since he was able to screw with Azezal.

Great final twist with the cat. 9/10

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[–] koffeenkreame41-1 11 years ago

Yup, right before it entered the police station and when he was watching the Reese video earlier.

"I am the ultimate badass, you do not wanna `*beep*` wit me!"- Hudson in Aliens.

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[–] oopendorf 18 years ago

No, best way would be to get a hold of a nuke. Then find a way to lead him away from the city before nuking him. Yeah, you'd still get a few thousand if not hundred thousand people as well. But at least you'd kill Azazel. Got a crack a few eggs...

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[–] nickatnoon61 (235) 10 days ago

I'm VEGAN 39 years. No eggs, no bacon, no SICKNESS in that time.(since 1986). Back on topic, it's a very intriguing movie, and I came here to find out what those numbers on the chest mean?

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[–] ph75006 10 years ago

I agree with it not being fair how it was never made clear just what kind of living being Azazel could possess since if it can transfer into a cat, then who's to say it couldn't have gone into a bird, insect or ant? Surely the forest wasn't completely devoid of every single possible living thing? I was so keen on this movie until the last 15min.

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[–] iheartclive 18 years ago

That doesn't work either. Azazel can go through the car to get to the cat.

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[–] Erin-Leigh-14 10 years ago

Azazel would still have gotten into the cat.. after the host dies, Azazel is free to move through the air and enter a body - no physical touching required.

have you tried that crazy wrap thing?! http://erinleighmckenzie.myitworks.com

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[–] story-consulting01 10 years ago

Right.
But it would have been better with a wild animal than this pussycat. A bobcat or a "Lynx canadensis" would made a dread appearance.
And then you could have another good ending with a hunter wanting to shoot it, but a wildlife guard preventing him (!), and they let it go free...

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[–] jejozi 12 years ago

So you're saying the evil demon couldn't get into a locked vehicle? She made it out of the sealed gas chamber after leaving Reese, she could have made it into a locked car.

This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here.

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[–] hoboboxerjoe 13 years ago

I guess then someone could say "Well then all people in the movie were!"

But the whole point of the plan was that everyone in the cabin had to die, incuding Azazel. Denzel living is somewhat arguable, the case in this thread is strong for it. But really, a *beep* cat at the end? It really makes all conclusions for Azazel's death and the whole cabin instead pointless!

No matter what happened Azazel was going to win. Thanks to the "cat-factor."

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[–] chicacherrycola12 9 years ago

I think it was no mistake, it was a mechanism crafted, i.e. the real and logical reason why Hobbes poisoned himself was purely to ensure that Azazel was dead.

If Hobbes drove away after shooting Jonesy, how could he be sure Jonesy would take long enough to die for him to reach 500 cubits distance, and Azazel could even easily speed up Jonesys death like shoot Jonesy himself and catch up with Hobbes and enter Hobbes.

So if you want to kill Azazel, the only way is either you die with Azazel or you risk Azazel entering you and he makes you a psycho serial killer, which is of course horrible. And the poisoning was essential to make sure after Azazel enters him he can't stop Hobbes from dying, leaving Azazel with no host.

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[–] ben-549 18 years ago

Azazel can enter MOST people by touch but not all. He can't possess Hobbes that way, that's established early in the film. Azazel can however enter ANYBODY if his host dies. Hobbes is only vulnerable to possession when Azazel's host dies.

As to why he sticks around and doesn't just let Jonesy die slowly alone, I think it's just a case of making sure Azazel can't survive. Obviously had he known Azazel could possess animals as well, perhaps he'd have chosen a nuclear bunker a mile underground for his plan.

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[–] Fear_Street 18 years ago

I don't really get you, and some of the things you said, make me wonder where ya heard them..

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[–] Kroitzer 18 years ago

I think Hobbes was doomed and he knew it and that's why he killed himself. Cuz, whatever he did, he was damned! The thing is that he DID want to see Azazel die at all means for killing his brother. you know... revenge. But that damn cat xD!
But serious, I thought about that too. How could he save the day without dieing? So I came up with the revenge idea. makes it more personal and makes sense too. Seems to me that his bro and the kid was his only family. But then I also thought: He left the kid orphan and living with a stranger hehehe. So then I came up with this answer: He abanded the kid to protect him, cuz he knew that if Azazel was left alive, he'd go kill the kid to keep harming Hobbes. He failed miserbly though! xD

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[–] Fear_Street 18 years ago

Good theories!

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[–] heat8488 18 years ago

So it botherd noone else thata domestic cat was out in the middle of nowhere? Wouldn't it have made more sense for it to be a fox or a squirrel or some animal that lives in the woods? I'm pretty sure a domestic cat wouldn't be that far away from the city. Yes I know they have the ability to survive out there but was it really not possible to find an animal you'd be more likely to see in the woods? I'm guessing they couldn't be arsed(as the british say) to find one and used a cat that belonged to a cast or crew member instead.

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[–] Kroitzer 18 years ago

=O
Jesus Christ! I thought it was a wild cat xD!
Well, I guess the filmmkers couldn't get a wild cat and used the first animal they saw.

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[–] annerkey29 16 years ago

Someone who didn't want their cat abandoned said cat in the woods (unfortunately happens a lot). Cat finds abandoned cabin and lives off of mice and birds. Voila, instant domestic cat living in woods with realistic reason for being there.

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[–] KongKongAGAIN 16 years ago

Myself, I half wondered why Hobbes didn't drive away after wounding Jonesey (hell, John Goodman's a big guy — Hobbes was lucky to have won the fight, at all), but then realized it would have made no difference if he had. Either way, to ensure that Azazel wouldn't enter Hobbes and make it to a city, Hobbes had to kill himself; he could have shot himself in the head, but that would have robbed the film of some compelling dialogue ("Forget you, my friend!" -- lol). At that point, even if Azazel got the car keys and started driving, he wouldn't have made it farther than five hundred cubits, and I doubt there was any human life within that range. Hobbes might as well have just kept the keys in the cabin, but I guess he didn't want to take chances, and that he didn't know Azazel would know everything his host knew. Of course, what Hobbes didn't consider is that Azazel could possess non-human animals.

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[–] frikkenkids 18 years ago

Hobbes doesn't know two important things. The first is how long it takes Azazel to move between bodies when his host dies. The second is that Azazel can enter animals. If he had known about the animal thing, then a forest obviously wouldn't be the place for him to execute his plan.

As for the first - if Hobbes had tried to preserve his own life and run, Azazel could have done something to quicken his own death (tear his own throat apart, shove a stick into his ear, something - anything to kill himself quicker) and Hobbes doesn't know if he'll be able to get away fast enough. After shooting Azazel, Hobbes kept him talking so that Azazel wouldn't do anything to speed his own death, thus allowing Hobbes to poison himself.

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[–] hvatum 18 years ago

Luckily we now know about the animal thing, so if this ever actually happens we'll know what to do! xD

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[–] wsuggs74 18 years ago

There is an comment sometime during the movie that Azazel can only survive one breath once his host dies, and I think Hobbes heard (or read) that. It may have been in the book he read.

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[–] redwhitezvastik 18 years ago

because if he had left azazel would have continued to live trough hobbes. so he had to die and azazel won't have another body to transfer into. but that cat was his salvation. at least that's what i understood

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[–] tnrebelguitarist 18 years ago

well i do believe that he wanted to make sure Azazel was dead, but also he knew that if he returned to the city he wouldnt have much of a life because he had reports by the witnesses of the school teacher shooting saying he fired first and also his dead brother was found in their house dead.....so if he didnt sacrifice himself to make sure he killed Azazel he would have probably spent the rest of his life in a jail cell wondering if he had actually died or not.

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[–] SolidRunner 18 years ago

What Hobbs should have done was exactly what he did until the point where he decided to kill himself (and with the exception of throwing away the keys). Afterwards he could get into his car and drive off. And there we go, job done. He would stay away from Azazal so as to not have his him entering his body by touch and the distance gained from driving would have kept him safe from his spirit form.

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[–] draxthevile 18 years ago

I think you're missing the key point. The original question is "why didn't hobbes just run away?" I interpret that to mean that hobbs should have set his buddies slow death up and get in his car and drive away. It would seem, based on the replies, that a plausible explanation for this is because azazel could have sped up his death when hobbes started running. Hobbes would have surely counted on this so he would stay behind and watch him die, knowing full well that azazel would sit there and humor him by talking until he died. If azazel had known that hobbes was killing himself with poison, he would have again sped up his death and gotten in the car to drive towards the city.

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[–] pinkpanther_ka 18 years ago

the key point is that hobbes had all this planned out. he couldn't just leave he had to kill everything so that the spirit/azazel could not survive. everything was going to work except the cat showed up so that his planned was ruined but hobbes didn't no that. so to answer the question, he probably wanted to watch azazel suffer or die. but hobbes died to fast. everything would have worked perfect except that the cat ended up coming. if anyody has any disagreements with this plz feel free to contact me thanks.

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[–] makerthevalve 18 years ago

I think the most interesting answer is that Hobbes has been convinced by all this that he is doing God's work. A point that I think maybe wasn't conveyed as well as the moviemakers intended. But.... Greta and He talk about it in the public square scene. She says something like "I think there are people, some of us, that are here to fight them..." and Hobbes immediately interjects with "You think I'm one of these people?!" and later after she's nearly been touched, they meet in the church and she says to him "I've been preparing for this for 20 years and I ran..."

Hobbes is strong. He's 'still a good fella.' as Azazel says through Reese in the beginning of the film after the orgasmic handholding. Hobbes can't be entered through touch. He's convinced by the end of the film that He is one of God's warriors. That's why He's been put through all these trials & tribulations. His brother being born with those problems, then having a son, needing constant attention; Hobbes losing his wife; being a black detective in a white man's precinct...etc. The moment has come and Hobbes isn't going to run.

I just don't know why he didn't turn the gun on himself after shooting Jonesy... but I suppose that you can say he was just being cautious with the poison, not knowing how fast Azazel could take his body.

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[–] blitzkrieg-films 18 years ago

A few people have it nailed mostly, but I'll just confirm some stuff here

Hobbes had to kill himself to stop Azazel from possesing him (he didn't know about the cat)
He couldn't run because he might not make it (Azazel could move VERY fast or kill himself instantly and catch Hobbes.. he doesn't know), he goes on the side of caution, as always.

Hobbes had to make sure that Jonsey/Azazel died, he had to watch it, to make sure that it happened. Jonesy obviously had transport somewhere, if Jonesy died too slowly he might make it far enough to get to another body. Hobbes had to stay and watch him die.

He also had to kill himself before Jonesy died (technically), so this way, he killed himself without Azazel realising, if Jonesey died before Hobbes he might be able to enter Hobbes, before he can kill himself. The poison was a subtle way to do such a thing. It allows Hobbes to keep Jonesy alive long enough for him to be on the verge of dying, and only lets him onto what is going on at the last second.

Hobbes also had to kill himself to protect his family (or whats left of it), even though he doesn't know where his nephew will be, he couldn't risk Azazel finding out. He knew Greta would know, and being a cop he could probably track her down (Azazel would know everything Hobbes knew, including how to work like a cop).

He used the poison because it was from the syringe that was used to kill his brother, it was more personal for him that way, a way to show his love for his brother, and his contempt for Azazel

OK any questions?
I think everything in this film was conveyed perfectly. If it wasn't so sublte it would be *beep* it makes a film like this worth watching over and over. You learn knew things, there is a lot going on the whole time.

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[–] vic_hugovp 18 years ago

Denzel should simply shot both azazel's legs (and shot his too), the kill azazel.

Azazel would go to posses Denzel because he doest know that a cat is around, and even If he knew, he could get there on time with both legs injured.

Simply as that.

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[–] Panterken 18 years ago

If Hobbs would just run, and let Jonesy just die slowly, there's a chance another human being would come by and Azazel would survive still....poisoning himself was the only way he could make sure Azazel wouldn't survive( too bad he didn't know about the animals though :-))

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[–] pinkpanther_ka 18 years ago

I thought in the strat of the movie Hobbes for some reason Azazel couldn't eneter Hobbes under any reason.

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[–] Panterken 18 years ago

No no, the movie clearly states that NO ONE can resist azazel in his spirit form. So even Hobbes could be entered that way even though he couldn't be entered by touch.

Chrz

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[–] wahwah007 18 years ago

personally its a good vs. evil story. hobbes was famous for getting reese put away and put down, lol, but in fact it wasn't reese, it was the demon. hobbes would rather know he beat this demon face to face rather than run off and come back to check...which he can't in fact do because the demon has no physical form therefore, no vitals to check, whos to say it was just jonesy and the Lt. there to get him? besides, if he lived, he would always be a criminal, even in hiding, and never able to be with his loved ones, i think, after everything thats happened he figured it would be best to kill the demon, and what better way to make him die, than by your own hands and in your own flesh?

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[–] casemon 18 years ago

I liked this movie and thought it was more or less well made. Though the ending, I see it as a weak hole. I like the little flip with the narration, but here's what should have happened:

Hobbes should have shot Jonesy / Azazel like he did in the movie, tied him up (so he can't kill himself), then pour gasoline everywhere and make a trail of it to the road. Go to the car, light an un-poisoned cigarette while the car engine is running... drop the cigarette and speed off...

No animals or people would come near the house (because of fire and the fact that it's in the middle of nowhere) and Hobbes is well far away by the time his partner / demon dies a slow & painful death.

500 cubits / 1/6th of a mile is really not that far to go.

Maybe Hobbes was just suicidal after losing his brother? (just kidding)

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[–] Doc_Holiday_Muses 17 years ago

Yeah, that probably would have worked but you're making this suggestion based on 20/20 hindsight. Hobbes came up with the best plan he could based on the facts he knew. I actually liked the ending as it was very unconventional. Is it kind of a bummer that Azazel won? Of course. But, it just represented the continual fight of good vs evil and it gives us hope that humans are capable of discovering this ongoing evil and each time they get a little closer to destroying him for good. That was my take anyway.

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[–] Algebroad_XVII 17 years ago

I watched this movie twice on TV, but I missed the ending both times. So, here I am searching for a spoiler for the ending, and you guys are telling me that Azazel beats Hobbes by using a CAT????

"Sell crazy some place else. We're all stocked up here." -Melvin Udall

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[–] Doc_Holiday_Muses 17 years ago

Yep, fraid so. Not sure how much of the ending you missed but basically, Azazel is in Jonesy. They're up at Milano's cabin. Hobbes winds up shooting Jonesy. It's fatal but not immediate. While Jonesy is dying, Hobbes smokes a cigarette laced with the poison that Azazel had used to kill his brother. When Jonesy dies, Azazel becomes spirit and inhabits Hobbes. He scrambles in a desperate attempt to get somewhere near civilization but the poison kills him rather quickly. He becomes spirit again and finds a stray cat to inhabit. The kicker at this point is that you hear Hobbes voice in a narration that says something like, "Oh, you forgot, at the beginning I said I was going to tell you about the time that I ALMOST died." That's when you realize that the Hobbes narration that you've been hearing throughout the movie, or at least at the beginning, has actually been that of Azazel using Hobbes voice.

Now, personally, I kinda liked the ending. Some people say it's a cheat and I can see their point because when Milano's daughter is explaining things to Hobbes she fairly clearly states that some fallen angels were given no form and they must take out their vengence by "using us, humans" so as to have a physical form. On the other hand, it was shown earlier in the movie that Azazel could in fact inhabit a cat so the movie kinda sets the "rules" at that point. Like I said, I kinda liked the ending...I think it's because it's somewhat contrary to the standard formula of good always triumphs over evil in every confrontation. And I didn't feel like it violated its own rules enough to take away from my enjoyment of the movie as a whole. You, of course, can make up your own mind but I think it would make more sense to you if you saw the whole thing.

I'm your huckleberry...

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[–] Se7en11291 17 years ago

Let's say there was no cat (since Hobbes didn't know about it). Even if he took off in the car, he would still be within that 1/6 mile of Azazel when he came out of the body, so there was a chance he could have gone into Hobbes, so he wanted to be sure. Plus, he was in enough trouble with the killings and such, so he probably wanted to just end it all since he knew he could never talk his way out of it. He lost his job anyways. He wanted to be sure Azazel was dead, so that's why he did it the way he did. He wanted to make sure he didn't make the same mistake the other cop did.

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[–] Doc_Holiday_Muses 17 years ago

Yeah, I agree. I think that Hobbes felt that this was his destiny and in addition he felt that this was the only way to be sure. Of course, the best laid plans of mice and men...

I'm your huckleberry...

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[–] Se7en11291 17 years ago

Yup, exactly. And just as you said, "Of course, the best laid plans of mice and men...", even with a seemingly perfect plan, something goes wrong.

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[–] Algebroad_XVII 17 years ago

The kicker at this point is that you hear Hobbes voice in a narration that says something like, "Oh, you forgot, at the beginning I said I was going to tell you about the time that I ALMOST died." That's when you realize that the Hobbes narration that you've been hearing throughout the movie, or at least at the beginning, has actually been that of Azazel using Hobbes voice.

I guess it would've lost some impact if we heard the cat meowing in the narration at the beginning...

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[–] koffeenkreame41-1 11 years ago

Hobbes couldn't touch Azazel, Jonesy was dying and would soon become dead weight, if he had moved or touched him, Azazel would've entered his body even quicker. I always LOL when someone says that Hobbes should've strapped to a rocket or something like that. What cop do you know that can get a rocket in that length of time?

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[–] Moonglum9 (11336) a year ago

Azazel couldn't enter Hobbes by touch. That was stated on a number of occasions

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[–] user-15030 17 years ago

Hobbes was to close to get away even by car.

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[–] Strunkinator 17 years ago

How could Hobbes get in trouble by killing the teacher? If he had killed Azazel at the end, he would've been put on trial, yes. But wouldn't that teenage girl confirm that the teacher had been holding a gun, too, and wouldn't put it down on Hobbes request? She wasn't inhabited when the killing happened.

And about the poison and death of his brother, wouldn't Greta be able to explain some of it. Sure, a soul-transferring killer sounds crazy, but the other police detectives that Azazel infected at the police station would remember something fishy about everyone suddenly blacking out and not remembering themselves singing. Correct?

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[–] koffeenkreame41-1 10 years ago

If Gretta came forward, Azazel would know where she was and it'd put her & Sam in danger, also if she had done that, they'd lock her up on the crazy house for sure.

"I'm the ultimate badass,you do NOT wanna f-ck wit me!"Hudson,Aliens😬

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