Stirring the Pot, but need info... - The Devil's Own (1997) Discussion

[–] Island_Of_Ireland 19 years ago

The irish want ireland back,well they have it,but they want the rest back,simple

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[–] GraeShadowe 19 years ago

Forgive my ignorance, but the rest of what?

Refusal to believe does not negate the truth.

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[–] steeler33 19 years ago

Long Story Short:

There are two islands next to one another Ireland (with Irish people) and Great Britain (England, Wales and Scotland)

Past wars and conflicts had British invaders taking over parts of Ireland at various different points in history. (Much like how the United States came to be)

Then the top half of Ireland (now Northern Ireland) is a part of Great Britain.

Many Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland were mistreated and persecuted throughout history by the British and have fought back.

Some have formed terrorist groups that have targeted British interests throughout the world.

Some want Ireland to be one country again under one government.

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[–] GraeShadowe 19 years ago

Ok. That makes some of what I've read and heard make more sense. Thanks for the info.

Refusal to believe does not negate the truth.

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[–] Island_Of_Ireland 18 years ago

Lets clear another thing up,N.Ireland isnt a part of Great britain,it is a part of the U.K(which is NI added on to Great britain)

most of ireland is free thanks to the war,but the people in the north got screwed over in a deal as the brits made it so as N.Ireland would remain in the UK,which sparked the huge war between the IRA/republicans and the security forces/loyalists

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[–] ib011f9545i 17 years ago

far too simple an explanation,some of the so called British people in Northern Ireland have been there for hundreds of years.

So there are 2 groups living in the north,prior to 1922 Ireland was united under British rule with a Catholic majority but it was run by a protestant or even English ruling class.

After 1922,follwing Irish nationalists rebellion Ireland was split,by legal treaty,between the Irish Free State and Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland had a pro British union protestant majority.

In the Irish Free State they had a bloody civil war between the government forces who wanted to build Ireland as it was until the day they could also run Northern Ireland and the fanatics who wanted nothing less than a whole Irish so called republic.

The pro treaty forces won in the Irish Free State and bad things were done on both sides in the civil war and after,but of course we almost never hear about these things cause the British are always the bad guys right?

Unarmed hostages were shot dead by the Irish government and people were interned wiithout trial,pro British residents in the South were murdered with the state looking the other way.
The Catholic church bullied the Irish state and until recently it was a backward place compared to the rest of europe.
Ireland was no sort of republic since it did not have a free press or democracy because it was dominated by the Catholic Church.

In Northern Ireland the protestants ruled,the government was a nasty upper class prostestant one,Catholics had a crap life but working class protestants did not have it easy either.

In the 1940s,late 1950s and 1969-1997??? the provisional IRA carried out violent actions against Northern Ireland and sometimes in Britain as well.

People have to understand that the IRA has split many times and it is not the same outfit that fought the liberation war in 1916-1922.
The IRA pretended to be a marxist revolutionary force when talking to people in europe and elsewhere but it was a reactionary social force in real life and they never preached marxism in America.

The IRA is officially an enemy of the Irish government as well as the British one.
Thousands of IRA prisoners have been jailed in Ireland,many were shot in past times.

Mny of the people on this site will be pro IRA and many of them will have little interest or knowledge of the history of Ireland.

Some people who support a united Ireland say they want a united island with respect to all points of view,others seem to hint,but never actually say,that the pro British people should be forced out,at gunpoint?,in other parts of the world this is called ethnic cleansing.

I like this film but it is deeply flawed,I don't think the film makers meant to make such a confused film.
If they wanted to make a pro IRA film then it would have been a better film.

Years ago I saw an American film set in Northern Ireland called THE OUTSIDER,it showed a pro IRA American ex soldier going to Northern Ireland to be an IRA sniper and discovering that the IRA were a bunch of murdering racket running gangsters.
He leaves disappointed.
Funny you never see this film anywhere.

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[–] alastairward 18 years ago

What, exactly is the fighting in NI about? I have friends here who agree with both sides, but it doesn't make any sense to me.
Enlighten me, ignorant Yank that I am

Its not pot stirring really.

Over the past few centuries there have been wars between Ireland and England (then Great Britain) over the usual things, power, wealth, territory etc. Religion is a sticking point in many regions, for example the Balkans in south-eastern Europe. Wars between Catholic and Protestant Europe raged for some time and in Ireland, Protestantism was associated with the British and Catholicism with the Irish.

The more recent "Troubles" erupted because of these religious differences. The Irish fought and won a war of independence with the UK and were ceded 26 counties on the island of Ireland. 6 counties, mostly Protestant were left as part of the UK. The Republic of Ireland was predominantly Irish-Catholic and got along quite nicely, Northern Ireland was mostly Protestant and the majority rule here meant that Catholics often came out second best with regards social welfare, rights etc. It came to a head when civil rights were stamped on too often and rioting broke out between Catholics and Protestants.

Self rule was removed from N. Ireland and troops were used to quell violence. It worked ok for a short while, but nothing was done to fill the political vacuum left when the Protestant majority parliament was suspended in Northern Ireland which led to more trouble. The IRA (in its many guises) initially defended Catholics against British Loyalist rioters, but then it was always intended as a force against British rule in Northern Ireland and the popularity it gained from defending Catholics was used to bolster its strength. It then reverted to its old tricks and tried forcing the UK to cede N. Ireland to the Republic of Ireland by violence and violence back politics.

Loyalists have fought rather aimlessly but brutally to force Catholics to leave N. Ireland in an attempt to keep it as part of the UK. Neither Irish Republicans or Loyalists have been particularly successful at their aims. N. Ireland may leave to become part of the Republic of Ireland by majority rule because of a changing social climate. The ROI has become very successful economically and Loyalist violence has done little to root out Catholics in NI and done much to alienate them against the British State. For its own part, the British State has often done little to help and sometimes turned a blind eye to less savoury aspects of law enforcement.

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[–] dmc102 18 years ago

What you're getting here is a bunch of Republicans giving you a false idea of what this conflict is all about. I personally believe that Northern Ireland should remain British, but this is the non-POV description.

Some time ago, when Ireland fell under the direct rule of the English Monarchy, there was a population movement from Scotland to Ulster (mostly to the six counties that now make up NI; Antrim, Armagh, Londonderry, Down, Fermanagh and Tyrone). The community became known as the Ulster Scots - they were protestants and they and the local Catholics immediately started scrapping.

Things went on just like that until the Irish Independence movement in 1916 when the 'Irish Free State' was established. Unfortunately, due to its incapability to grow potatoes, the new Irish State was incredibly poor (the Black & Tans, a regiment of the British army who did a fair bit of pilaging, probably didn't help). As a result of this, the Protestants and Loyalists (generally the same thing) who made up a slight majority in Ulster decided that they wanted to remain part of the UK and not be part of a united Ireland. They got what they wanted and that was that.

The more recent violence started because of the IRA, the Irish Republican movement which initially fought for the Irish Free State. They took up arms to try and take Ulster from the UK. To be honest, the problems in the 60's when it all kicked off had more to do with people not having jobs than anything else - anyway the IRA started growing until the late 60's and early 70's when the British Army were deployed to keep order. The Catholics in NI actually didn't mind the British troops initially, as they had suffered attacks from Loyalists, but they won't admit that today.

In 1972 a regiment of British paratroopers panicked at a "civil rights" (pro-IRA) demonstration and lots of people were regretably killed. The rest, as they say, is history.

Call Me Jack. Union Jack.

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[–] JackyJacky 18 years ago

"Things went on just like that until the Irish Independence movement in 1916 when the 'Irish Free State' was established. Unfortunately, due to its incapability to grow potatoes, the new Irish State was incredibly poor (the Black & Tans, a regiment of the British army who did a fair bit of pilaging, probably didn't help). As a result of this, the Protestants and Loyalists (generally the same thing) who made up a slight majority in Ulster decided that they wanted to remain part of the UK and not be part of a united Ireland."

The Free State was created in 1922 and there was no British military presence in it except for the treaty ports, but you're right that Unionists wanted to remain in the UK for economic reasons. The North was the industrial heartland of the country and continued to be more prosperous than the South until the local industries imploded after WWII.

"The more recent violence started because of the IRA, the Irish Republican movement which initially fought for the Irish Free State. They took up arms to try and take Ulster from the UK. "

The UVF reformed in 1966, three years before the split in the IRA that created the Provisionals. It was the Loyalists who started the shootings and bombings: John Scullion (the first victim of the troubles) was killed by Gusty Spence's men, who bombed electricity and water utilities in March 1969 and tried to blame it on the then moribund IRA in an attempt to build up resistance to the civil rights movement. It was also Loyalists who caused the first casualties in the security forces.

"In 1972 a regiment of British paratroopers panicked at a "civil rights" (pro-IRA)"

A state is in a bad way if being against indefinite detention without charge or trial makes you a terrorist supporter. It was the entire 'Any Catholic who wants equal treatment under the law must support the IRA' line of thinking that caused all of the bother.

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