Since such cause cannot be limited by time, space and matter (because they are part of its effect), logical deduction suggest it's eternal, non-material (supernatural) and transcendent.
"People think that epilepsy is divine simply because they don't have any idea what causes epilepsy. But I believe that someday we will understand what causes epilepsy, and at that moment, we will cease to believe that it's divine. And so it is with everything in the universe." -- Hippocrates (might be a fake quote but it's still a good one).
What you're doing here is taking something that we don't understand at the moment (the creation of the Universe) and replacing this lack of knowledge with "God did it." Of course even if a God did it, we have no clue which one or ones, so even this "logical deduction" doesn't get you very far.
It's no different than Zeus throwing down lightning bolts because some people didn't understand how lightning worked.
But it gets worse. You're taking something complex (the Big Bang) and making it even more complex by adding this intelligent entity into the equation. So the "explanation" doesn't clarify anything, it just muddles things.
It's spelled Raymond Luxury Yacht, but it's pronounced 'Throat-Warbler Mangrove'
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akademic78
11 years ago
No, it doesn't "muddy" things, nor am I plainly saying "God did it" without any basis for it. I've outlined a clear chain of logical deduction based on scientific principles, which must've gone way over your head. You also must've forgotten that science deals only, and only with the natural, material world, and cannot by definition test anything beyond that. Since the Universe is the material world, then its Cause, shown in previous logical deduction to be above and superior to it, cannot be studied or tested in laboratory probes (which I'm sure bugs the hell out of you). No, Zeus and Allah don't come into play until we start studying mythology and religions, which are interpretations of such Cause, and find the ones that make most sense. So I don't even know why you mentioning Zeus, it must be a classic pseudo-intellectual move to try and discredit something that has nothing to do with mythology or religion.
So just admit it - you're absolutely clueless, aren't you.
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clouseau-4
11 years ago
No, it did not go over my head. Your pseudo-scientific, pseudo-transcendent babble was actually quite understandable.
First of all, the natural world doesn't have to be limited to the universe since the big bang. If we gain the ability to observe other universes, dimensions, etc., then they become part of the natural world. The natural world today is defined as the universe.
This pretty much destroys your entire argument, which is really based on semantics.
It's spelled Raymond Luxury Yacht, but it's pronounced 'Throat-Warbler Mangrove'
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ghostmasseur
11 years ago
The "cause and effect" you try basing your views o have been debunked time and time again in the scientific community AS A PROOF OF GOD.
The clueless one is you.
The cause and effect concept that you quote may bring into question HOW things occurred but none of them can be used to claim that a specific entity caused them (or that any single entity caused them), that said entity(s) still exist, or that said entity(s) are deity, let alone your god.
Your attempt to say that you used logical reasoning to come to your conclusion, therefore failed. You did not use logic. You tried using scientific reasoning to bolster your beliefs, but since yo did not understand the core process, you did not really utilize science. Now you may succeeded in convincing yourself that your faith is based in logical reasoning, but to those who actually understand science and rational thought, you failed. Sorry to burst your bubble.
And before you try your rant about my being a teenager, I am in my 50's with advanced degrees and associate with some of the greatest scientific minds there are as well as a few highly regarded philosophy scholars and even some theology scholars. ALL of them would laugh at your assertions.
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akademic78
11 years ago
Another failure. As expected. For a 50 year old man, you're pretty ridiculous, since you haven't bothered to understand what I wrote. You sure those philosophy scholars aren't laughing at YOU behind your back?
Re-read my reasoning and the conclusions I'm giving. The logical deduction, which is not invented by me, and has its rules, inevitably leads to the conclusion of a Cause that is greater than its effect (not limited by time, space and matter). Such Cause, in turn, cannot be abstract, since abstract objects cannot by definition create anything. Creation is an act of will, therefore, such Cause is personal and self-aware. You just hate the word "God" and anything that has to do anything with it, it's clear as day. I specifically stated that after we conclude such Cause, we can THEN debate over different religions and their interpretations of it (God). Which doesn't cancel the absolutely solid logical reasoning given.
Which you can't even counter-argue, as seen in your lame previous post.
Congratulations, at 50 and with all your "degrees" you're still clueless.
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ghostmasseur
11 years ago
I fully understood what you wrote. It is you that are clueless. You try using the idea of cause and effect as a way of misusing scientific process/concepts to try to prove the existence of God/Deity. You failed miserably.
You can claim that everyone who debunks you is failing but you have shown nothing that even comes close to proof.
Singing, "Nah, Nah Nah, I am right and everyone else fails against me" is comic, but more to the point it is the mark of someone who is not educated enough to understand rational thought and reasoning.
You are obviously not capable of intelligent thought so you are dismissed.
Go back to your mommy.
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the_la_baker
9 years ago
I fully understood what you wrote. It is you that are clueless. You try using the idea of cause and effect as a way of misusing scientific process/concepts to try to prove the existence of God/Deity. You failed miserably.
You can claim that everyone who debunks you is failing but you have shown nothing that even comes close to proof.
Singing, "Nah, Nah Nah, I am right and everyone else fails against me" is comic, but more to the point it is the mark of someone who is not educated enough to understand rational thought and reasoning.
You are obviously not capable of intelligent thought so you are dismissed.
Go back to your mommy.
Nice ending to that madness. Well said, sir.
On a side note; Fractals, the answer is fractals.
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