MovieChat Forums > The Late Shift (1996) Discussion > Why I think Letterman was not offered th...

Why I think Letterman was not offered the tonight show

posted 13 years ago by JAlexa9898
23 replies | jump to latest

This is the difference between Letterman and Leno. First forget your opinions of both of them, I know people do not like Jay but this is what I think the difference is. There is being a nice guy and there is self deprecating humor. Carson was more of a nice guy, I mean if he was ever self deprecating he did it in a way where it was finely tuned to being a nice guy. Letterman is self deprecating, calling his show a dog and pony show, etc. I think the producers saw the Tonight show as a legacy and not to be put down.
This is something else I wanted to talk about that a lot of people may not think of. Letterman first went on late night in 1981, Conan left Late Night at about 2009. Thats about 28 years doesn't that make that show ALSO a legacy? 12:30 is often talked about as second place but the thing is 28 years is 28 years!!!!!

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] JAlexa9898 13 years ago

No I am not taking anything away from the tonight show I am just saying the late night show needs to be also looked at as a dynasty

[–] a_l_i_e_n 13 years ago

I agree. There's no disgrace in hosting at 12:35, and "Late Night" by now has a pretty good record for both making careers, and in the case of Jimmy Fallon, saving them, too.

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] a_l_i_e_n 13 years ago

After so many years of cutting your teeth on an interview show, to have some stand-up comedian come in who had less than a tenth of the hosting experience you did and be chosen had to be grating on Letterman.

We can't blame Jay for saying to NBC 'look, I'm well established as permanent guest host and I've proven that I can bring in good ratings when Johnny's away, so consider me for the job.' There's always competition for a great job. But, yes, it's certainly understandable that Dave would be hugely disappointed when NBC went with Jay first.

Leno made things worse by signing a five-year deal in 2004 and saying it would be his last one. He was NEVER forced out.

NBC told Jay in 2004 at the height of popularity that they would be dropping him in order to give Conan "The Tonight Show" so he would stay with the network. Jeff Zucker told Jay their focus group polling indicated he could not maintain his ratings dominance, so they had no plans to re-sign him when his contract was ready to expire. So, actually he was being let go with a specific date set that he would have to turn "TTS" over to Conan. And that's what we saw happen.

At the time, he thought he didn't want to be doing this into his 60s and he knew NBC wanted to avoid the same debacle they had with Letterman. Which is why we knew Conan would take over the Tonight Show so far in advance.
But then Leno decided he wasn't done, and NBC happily bent over backwards to give him a primetime show that ended up being a huge disaster

Well, he never wanted to be "done" in the first place. Saying that stuff about not hosting into his sixties was just for appearances. It sounded better than:

NBC has decided that Conan O'Brien is more valuable to them. So, at the end of my contract, they will be giving him the job I love, because they are so sure I can't keep my current lead in the ratings.

Imagine the damage that bit of candour would've caused for all concerned.

And the 10PM show was the network's idea, again based on research indicating that people would watch a talk show in primetime. So, if nothing else, we all learned the true value of focus group polling as a means to predict future success.

[–] sandman81 12 years ago

Another factor was how they each acted off the stage. Jay could be difficult sometimes, but was alot easier than Dave. Jay would atleast be willing to show up at some network events, or do meet and greets with affiliates and promote the show as well as himself. Dave has never done anything like that, and still doesn't. He rarely even does any interviews, even for friends of his like Regis or Howard Stern. He's even been known to go weeks at a time not speaking to his producers or other people who work on the show. Say what you will about whose funnier, but Jay is definately easier to work with, and will help the network out.

"If I'm wrong, I'll pay for it. But if I'm right you're gonna hear about it."

[–] a_l_i_e_n 12 years ago

Say what you will about whose funnier, but Jay is definitely easier to work with, and will help the network out.

Couldn't agree more. "The Late Shift" mentioned how network "suits" would drop in to see Dave and he would get his secretary to tell them he wasn't around. Jay, no matter what he really thought of them, understood the importance of treating those people with courtesy. Looking at it from NBC's position, if you're choosing who will be the next host of your biggest show in late night, then obviously you'd choose the guy who's cordial and helps out with annoying chores he'd probably prefer not to be bothered with.

And yes, Dave rarely lets other people interview him because he is a huge control freak who doesn't like being in situations where he can't manage everything around him. That's my assessment anyways.

[–] rogueforte 12 years ago

This is a good explanation of one of the supreme ironies of the 'Leno vs. Letterman' debate. Although NBC loved Carson's ratings, he had gotten way too independent and powerful, and there's no doubt that while they wanted someone to equal Carson's success, they didn't want anyone who could thumb their nose at the 'suits' like Carson was free to do. The Fred Silverman contract dispute in 1979 is clear evidence of that and exactly what they would have gotten with Letterman. They certainly didn't want a repeat of having someone as powerful as Carson on The Tonight Show, and that's the main reason they went with Leno. Leno could be dealt with much easier than either Letterman or Carson, and that's really the bottom line.

[–] a_l_i_e_n 12 years ago

The Fred Silverman contract dispute in 1979 is clear evidence of that and exactly what they would have gotten with Letterman. They certainly didn't want a repeat of having someone as powerful as Carson on The Tonight Show, and that's the main reason they went with Leno.

Yes, and by only putting in 3 shows a week, Carson at 62 was not working near as hard as Leno does now at the same age. But speaking of Fred Silverman, he offered Steve Allen the 12:30 slot after "The Tonight Show", which Allen enthusiastically accepted. Unfortunately for him, the offer was withdrawn because, as Silverman explained to Allen, "Johnny says no". As the first host of "The Tonight Show", Allen was the guy who showed every single late night talk show host to follow how to do the job right- and that includes Johnny Carson. Johnny wouldn't even have gotten "TTS" if Allen hadn't left to try a variety show in prime time. So blocking what would've been a chance for Allen to return to the form he helped create sure seems like a mean thing for Johnny to have done. He did, indeed, carry more sway at NBC than any network exec. would probably have wanted to have to deal with again in a replacement. So in that sense, Jay was definitely the right choice for NBC.

[–] rogueforte 12 years ago

It's ironic that Carson nixed Allen, not so much for being mean, but for the simple fact that Allen at the time was just as unfunny as Carson had become. Have you ever seen any of the later Tonight shows where Allen actually got to guest-host? He just repeated all his old bits from two decades ago. Stuff like coughing into the 'wolf whistle' and reciting the lyrics of rock music, except instead of doing 'Be-Bop-A-Lula', he read Donna Summer's 'Hot Stuff'.

Don't get me wrong, Allen at the beginning was cutting-edge and funny. It was a great show back then. But two decades later, all the same old jokes, bits, and physical schtick that was so avante-garde in the beginning were startingly bad and unfunny. It was nearly the same as when Milton Berle hosted Saturday Night Live, the one episode of the original show that's so bad it's the one original cast show that's never been released on DVD.

So, although he was certainly capable of being mean, that's not why Carson wouldn't let Allen have the 12:30 slot. Carson simply knew that Allen wouldn't make it. It would have been like The Chevy Chase Show, only with Steve Allen as the host. In this instance, Carson's power at NBC was a good thing and he made the right call.

[–] a_l_i_e_n 12 years ago

Carson simply knew that Allen wouldn't make it. It would have been like The Chevy Chase Show, only with Steve Allen as the host. In this instance, Carson's power at NBC was a good thing and he made the right call.

Allen said he never did find out why. Carson saving a mentor from embarrassing himself is certainly a possibility. As for me though, I kinda doubt Johnny was trying to do Allen any favours there. I suspect he didn't like the idea that another contemporary of his might actually rival him in popularity if the new show became a hit. Granting Letterman the 12:30 spot must've seemed must less of a risk to him considering Dave's inexperience and the audiences unfamiliarity with him at the time. Plus, Johnny had more control there what with his company producing "Late Night with David Letterman".

I do recall Steve doing some great comedy specials for NBC with the likes of Catherine O'Hara participating, and I could see why Silverman would've thought Allen still had the stuff to make it again in late night. It was a real missed opportunity for all concerned not to try it. My opinion anyway.

[–] rogueforte 12 years ago

Taking the fact that Allen just wasn't very funny anymore out of the equation, yeah, Carson would surely have considered him more of a threat than Letterman. On one hand, you've got the young, inexperienced David Letterman who made no secret of idolizing Carson, meaning Carson (or NBC) would have the ability to outmaneuver him (which is exactly what happened when he was passed over in favor of Leno for the Tonight job after Carson retired).

Then you have Steve Allen, a seasoned late night veteran who had been around just as long as Carson (and was originally very successful at it, too) and was not nearly as enamored with Carson. Allen knew the ropes much better than Letterman and held the strong potential of being able and willing to stand up to Carson if he got the 12:30 slot, something which would have been a very remote possibility with the green, rookie Letterman.

Then there's the target audience. It might have been a later time slot, but Allen's age and material would have been identical to the demographics of Carson's market. Letterman, OTOH, was younger, and his fresh, new material geared towards a more youthful audience.

[–] a_l_i_e_n 12 years ago

Taking the fact that Allen just wasn't very funny anymore out of the equation..

I was too young to have watched Steve Allen's "Tonight Show" years, but I did enjoy the old clips I've seen as well as his appearances on other talk shows, and I, for one, always found this guy to be witty, quick and clever. Never forget how funny it was listening to him simply read aloud the lyrics to "Satisfaction": "a no no no ... Hey hey hey ... that's what I say."

[–] rogueforte 12 years ago

Steve Allen, in his day, was great. He had a little-known, syndicated late-night show sponsored by Westinghouse that ran from '62-'64 that few remember. But the few who have seen it (like me) remember it as hilarious and has been cited as an influence by people like David Letterman, Steve Martin, Harry Shearer, and Robin Williams.

One of the best of these shows was one where Allen was supposedly going to get drunk on air. Throughout the night, as guests would come out to be interviewed, they would bring out drinks, which Allen would dutifully swill. I don't know if he was actually drinking alcohol and/or inebriated, but there's a hilarious bit with Allan Sherman where Steve Allen tries to play the piano while Sherman tried to sing one of his comic songs.

The closest I can think that comes to it would be David Letterman's brief morning show. If you haven't seen it, there's a great clip on youtube of Andy Kaufmann on only the second morning show hosted by a very green Letterman where Kaufmann does a routine (who can tell?) where he dejectedly tells Letterman and the audience he's been divorced, is out of work, really down on his luck, and could use some money, then actually goes into the audience to panhandle.

[–] a_l_i_e_n 12 years ago

Yes, Letterman had said that he was emulating Allen's comic style more than he was Johnny's (the suit of magnets and jumping into a fish tank of jello was something Steve had done years before Dave did it again). And, ofcourse, Allen was the first to take the cameras out of the studio and talk to people on the street- something Howard Stern claims Leno took from him, but actually Howard stole from Allen first and wont admit it. Steve's the great architect of the comedy talk show format.

[–] damienoujia 12 years ago

I have thought this even more with the recent "Late Night" wars with Fallon getting itchy feet and wanting the Tonight Show. I think there would be great honor and recognition if Fallon could turn Late Night into a powerhouse ratings winner. Even after all this time on the air, the show is still perceived as a second tier program to boost a comedian to take over the Tonight Show eventually.

[–] a_l_i_e_n 12 years ago

I have thought this even more with the recent "Late Night" wars with Fallon getting itchy feet and wanting the Tonight Show. I think there would be great honor and recognition if Fallon could turn Late Night into a powerhouse ratings winner. Even after all this time on the air, the show is still perceived as a second tier program to boost a comedian to take over the Tonight Show eventually.

Personally, I rather doubt Fallon in any way pushed for Jay to be removed. It would be pretty audacious for a guy who just over 4 years ago didn't even have a steady job after his short film career fizzled. I think this is happening largely because of NBC's need for more coveted younger viewers to offset the network's financial woes due to it's lack of prime time success. It's interesting though that the now 31 year old "Late Night" is seen as a sort of audition for future "Tonight Show" hosts when (so far) Conan is the only former "Late Night" host who actually got promoted to the 11:35 job. And, obviously, that didn't work out so well.

[–] Manth_Sigdaw 12 years ago

To be fair to Conan, the guy wasn't given enough time to blossom into the role of Tonight Show host. Back in the 90s, Jay Leno would lose to Letterman in the ratings for his first 2 years until that Hugh Grant episode in 1995. We all know that Jay's silly primetime show in 2009 also didn't help Conan in the ratings either.

But Conan is a lot like Dave too, Conan has that quirkly, offbeat humour that doesn't play as well to a mass general audience the way Carson and Leno's does.

Besides just pulling in a younger demographic, I think Jimmy Fallon was picked b/c he's a bit more milquetoast and nice guyish, much like Jay Leno. Fallon isn't that funny and is nowhere near the interivewer that Carson, Letterman, Leno or Conan are, but like Leno and Carson, he has more mainstream comedy and projects All-America nice guy qualities. Conan and Dave on the other hand, even though they are older then they were in the 1990s, and older then Fallon, forever seem like two guys who appeal to some niche market in an upscale college sub-culture. They both act like they are smarter then their audience and berate the shows they do.

Fallon has gotten better as an interviewer, he needs to relax and give his guests the spotlight the way Carson did and even Leno and Letterman do. Plus, Fallon shouldn't try to make his show too cool and hip, and alienate an older Baby Boomer demographic who still want to watch a funny talk show. Just b/c you're 65 or 70 doesn't mean it's automatically bed time at 10:30 or 11:30. Fallon can keep doing his crazy skits with his BFF Justin Timberlake, do his sing alongs with Selena Gomez, but he needs to always remember to have a wide range of guests on and play to all of America, not just the younger audience. Back in the late 80s/early 90s, Arsenio Hall played almost excusively to a young audience, and that only went so far. For instance Johnny Carson used to bring regular, ordinary people on his show, like this wacky old lady that collected potatoe chips and a guy who was named George Bush (back in the early 90s when Bush the elder was President). Of all the people that have gotten the Tonight Show, Jimmy Fallon is the luckiest of the bunch, a struggling former SNL actor, this guy almost seemed to accidently fall into it.

[–] a_l_i_e_n 12 years ago

To be fair to Conan, the guy wasn't given enough time to blossom into the role of Tonight Show host. Back in the 90s, Jay Leno would lose to Letterman in the ratings for his first 2 years until that Hugh Grant episode in 1995.

Yes, but being equally fair to Jay- and even the network- NBC had actual hits in primetime back in the 90's ("LA Law", "Law & Order", "Cheers" and "ER", not to mention "Fraiser" and "Friends" on the way), and no competition yet from X-box, video-on-demand and twitter. So, they could better afford back then to be patient and wait for Jay's ratings to improve. Poor Conan had the misfortune of taking over during the worst recession since the great depression, so by then NBC did have a greater need for some instant profit.

We all know that Jay's silly primetime show in 2009 also didn't help Conan in the ratings either.

Yes, even Jay admits it didn't help Conan's ratings. But ofcourse Conan was losing to Letterman most of the summer without Jay's show to blame. He must take some responsibility for his own failure.

But Conan is a lot like Dave too, Conan has that quirkly, offbeat humour that doesn't play as well to a mass general audience the way Carson and Leno's does.

Yes, but if that's the case then I don't see why Dave would've dominated the scene for the better part of two years when he first went to CBS. There's been plenty of criticism of Jay's brand of humour, too, but he's still able to keep the viewers coming in.

Besides just pulling in a younger demographic, I think Jimmy Fallon was picked b/c he's a bit more milquetoast and nice guyish, much like Jay Leno.

Fallon seems like a very nice man, and even if you're not necessarily the funniest guy in the world, being personable and friendly is definitely important, too. Jimmy Kimmel might be a quick wit, but I don't find that guy particularly likeable. And, in my opinion, he's a bit of a hypocrite, too.

Of all the people that have gotten the Tonight Show, Jimmy Fallon is the luckiest of the bunch, a struggling former SNL actor, this guy almost seemed to accidently fall into it.

Couldn't agree more. Considering his career was at a virtual stand still just a little over 4 years ago, and now he's poised to take over tv's biggest late night institution, that's like winning the lottery.

[–] damienoujia 12 years ago

Also, the late night wars are a whole lot different now than they were back when Leno took over for Carson. There was more pressure for the Tonight Show to be successful quicker. NBC used to also give prime time shows more of a chance. Cheers, for example, wouldn't have lasted a first season if NBC was run in the 80's like it is today.

Sorry for your man, Conan fans. No...really...but it's time to let it go. We're talking about water that went under the bridge, out into the ocean, was evaporated into clouds, rained back down on the Earth and got back out into the ocean again. It's OVER.

However, I do think that Leno was pushed out by NBC execs and Leno pushed back to get the Tonight Show back.

Personally, I never cared for Conan. Another shocking thing to Conan fans...that people may not actually like him. I think Fallon is a much more versatile host and has more to offer the Tonight Show.

That said, I wished he was staying in Late Night and making that a show to watch and envy and for future comedians to strive to get.

[–] a_l_i_e_n 12 years ago

Sorry for your man, Conan fans. No...really...but it's time to let it go. We're talking about water that went under the bridge, out into the ocean, was evaporated into clouds, rained back down on the Earth and got back out into the ocean again. It's OVER.

I continue to read lots of angry messages, most of it aimed at Jay. "The War For Late Night" came out 3 years ago, but there are still people who think it was all Jay's idea to step down, and then he just changed his mind. They just aren't interested in learning the facts, or even hearing that Jay was forced out by NBC so thry could keep Conan with the network.

However, I do think that Leno was pushed out by NBC execs and Leno pushed back to get the Tonight Show back.

He actually wanted to leave when they axed the 10pm show, but the network told Jay they would hold him to his contract. Jeff Gastin was the executive who came up with bringing Jay back to 11:35 and bumping Conan to midnight. The network tried to hold onto both Jay and Conan, who they still wanted as host "The Tonight Show".

Personally, I never cared for Conan. Another shocking thing to Conan fans...that people may not actually like him.

I like Conan, and, unlike some of his supporters, I actually watched when he was hosting "The Tonight Show". Best comment on the people who were so angry about what happened came after his new show on TBS was proving to be less popular than expected: "all these supporters won't actually watch Conan; they just want him to be on television somewhere."

That said, I wished (Fallon) was staying in Late Night and making that a show to watch and envy and for future comedians to strive to get.

Yes, I fail to see why any person lucky enough to get the position would feel that "Late Night" was not in itself an excellent job to have.

[–] danmankp37 11 years ago

They seemed to think they were going to keep them both which was arrogant and ignorant if you ask me. Letterman was never going to follow Jay but if you believe the movie at one point they believed they could offer Dave a sweet enough deal to get him to stay at 12:30..

[–] MurphAndTheMagicTones 11 years ago

Plus, Dave was locked in for almost two years still when Johnny announced his retirement, and the contract was so binding, Dave couldn't do anything about it. They could sue him into poverty even if he just walked away from his show and never appeared again.

Leno is not to blame for the Letterman debacle but he is to blame for the Conan debacle. Particularly galling is when he tried to paint himself as the victim. That was his biggest mistake, given he took the five-year contract in 2004 in an era where, if he wanted to make the claims he did on 60 Minutes on being forced out, people could research what happened in 2004 and discover the transition was completely amicable.

And sorry, the only thing Jay ever did well was the monologue. His interviewing skills NEVER improved, and his two biggest gags, Jaywalking and Headlines, were direct ripoffs of Letterman skits. He couldn't copy Letterman more brazenly if he started doing Top Ten lists.

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