MovieChat Forums > The English Patient (1996) Discussion > I am disgusted

I am disgusted

posted 9 years ago by luzi_825
23 replies | jump to latest

I'm very sorry, but I just watched this today and, while my boyfriend who's not really a fan of romance loved the movie, I didn't - and I do love romance, when it's well done, epic, crazy and a little violent/ obsessive. This was exactly the case, except there was a moral implication which to me just can't be excused. I had to read basically all the answers on the message board to see if I'd change my mind or even give the movie a second shot in a couple of months. But no. This is one movie I'll never see again because I am disgusted by it.
I really, really wanted to like it. I like the theme, the epic quality of it, the dialogues, the way the story connects, all the secondary characters (I love Hannah and Caravaggio!), I liked how it started, I like the WWII background...everything about it. Except the most important part: the love story. And that's such a big part of the movie, I just can't stand the whole thing now. While I love Ralph Fiennes and I love the character (I'd even go as far as to say I love somewhat narcissistic and controlling characters, so I'd really enjoy the scene in which he throws Katherine against the wall a little forcefully), the love affair is unforgivable.
I've seen people defending them, saying they were super intelligent and that they tried to resist the temptation. Well, they may have tried, but they ultimately failed. So yeah, they are disgusting, dirty cheaters. Katherine took her marriage too lightly, like it meant nothing, so it's even worse. That also makes me hate her character no matter how good the actress' performance was. And while he was wrong, she was the married one, so she had even more at stake and more responsibility. They were both adults who could've thought before they acted.
You know how this would've been a great movie? If instead of actually having an affair, they'd be resisting each other the entire movie and there would only be delicious sexual tension. And then Colin Firth's characters (can't recall the name) would have THOUGHT they had an affair and done the thing with the plane. And then, AFTER he was dead, they'd finally be lovers in that cave and she would die. Or maybe she'd break up with the husband before taking on a new lover and then the husband would be pissed and crash the plane. I don't know, just SOMETHING other than what it was.

I just rally wanted to register my fury here. I don't expect anyone to agree with me, I just really didn't like this.

[–] rrb_1 9 years ago

Not another "Katherine's an awful person" rant - please. If she "took her marriage lightly, like [sic] it meant nothing," she wouldn't have broken off her relationship with the man she was passionately in love with - citing her husband as the reason. You plainly were so blinded by your "fury" that you didn't pay attention.

Have you asked yourself why a fictional character's extra-marital affair fills you with rage? It's intriguing that you would have such a violent reaction to something you know never happened.

[–] luzi_825 9 years ago

This is what I meant by "I does't matter if she tried, she failed". She may have broken off the relationship, but she ended up giving in to temptation and cheating on her husband who clearly loved her dearly.
I have a violent reaction because I have a sense of moral and this goes against it. Not any person reason. Don't use and argumentum ad hominem because you do not understand my point of view. We are talking about a movie, not about my life.

[–] JaneThree 8 years ago

Her husband was a sick puppy who tried to commit double murder/suicide when he found out she was unfaithful. That's not normal.

[–] ryansassy1 8 years ago

You'll notice there was not any hint of the husband's sickness before he found out about the affair. Thus, Katherine really had no justification to cheat on him in the first place.

In any event, two wrongs don't make a right, so why try to defend her infidelity by implying that it was okay because we find out later the husband flipped out and tried to murder/suicide them?

_________________________________
"I'm sorry, but.." is a self-contained lie.

[–] gorgsharpy 9 years ago

Well, to you then, didn't they get what they deserved?

[–] luzi_825 9 years ago

They totally got what they deserved.
But what still irritates me is that I really wanted to like this movie and yet they had to create moral implications for it.

[–] cassio-raposa 9 years ago

I like the way you admit that the movie has many good things (acting, etc) even when you dislike the movie so much.
This is a VERY polemic theme (passion/cheating) and I think that that's the thing about the movie. The director knew that it would divide the audience (which sometimes is a good thing).
I don't agree that "they got what they deserved" because I don't think that two wrongs make one right. People do mistakes (EVERY person alive does), some in the social area, some in the marriage area, criminal, etc. Some actions deserve punishment - like a divorce where only one party gets the "loot" - but to die doesn't me sound like a fair consequence is this specific case.
Thing is, it is so hard to tell when we don't know the whole story, when we haven't walked the same steps .
I like this movie a lot, even not being myself a cheater. But I don't think that every story has to have a moral that I do accept as the most right one. In fact, watching this movie made me think about people I know who got their marriage ruined and realize that there are obviously many things I don't know about 'em, so I'll never be able to say something meaningful about their actions. The same way I cannot say that there's "such" psychological aspect that makes difficult for you to deal with the theme; because I don't know you or your background.
It's a movie with an aspect you don't accept. But you still see somethings as relevant. That's good, you don't have to like it :). But, as I said, not every story has to share your view - some will go against it, some will complement it, some will be of no relevance... And you end up with at last a piece of conversation for many occasions :). There's your lemonade.

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] gorgsharpy 8 years ago

So you should like the film, because Minghella wanted to show that they were idiots - set on a romantic background. Many people would fall for the romantic story, but you and I know it was doomed, crazy. I don't really care if it contravenes morals, because I don't believe in marriage being sanctimonious, but it contravened reality, the harsh truth of real life. Pursuing love that must be doomed not morally but actually, as she died.

What do you mean - create moral implication ...

"You couldn't be much further from the truth" - several

[–] FX_Lord 9 years ago

Damn. There was me thinking you were ranting about how disgusting it is that this film won Best Picture that year, I'd have so supported that rant.

Maybe you have a point with the point you made, but I don't think I'm going to waste another brain cell trying to work it out given how many were wasted watching this turd of the film.

"I don't reckon I got no reason to kill nobody."

[–] doughazelrigg 9 years ago

Apparently the OP has no grasp of the concept known as "tragedy," or tragic love affair. Pity.

Part of the tragic aspect is that if Katherine had been true to herself, she would have never married Jeffrey in the first place, preferring to remain friends. Of course, this would have meant she'd never meet Almasy. So, an integral part of tragedy is the way Fate seems to conspire to bring it about. Your moral objection, while admirable, is really wrong-headed here; the story itself confirms the dangers of the hungry heart --

[–] JaneThree 8 years ago

Katherine's big mistake was marrying Jeffrey and not realizing he was insane. Any man who reacts to infidelity with suicide and murder is sick in the head. The infidelity didn't put it there.

[–] JaneThree 8 years ago

Let's get real. When her husband found out she cheated, he attempted double homicide + suicide. That is not the behavior of a normal man. His wife CHEATED. That's not fun, but it's not the cause to attempt to murder two people and kill yourself. So while adultery is wrong, it is not a motive for what her husband did. He was sick in the head, and I'm sure it manifested itself in their marriage long before her affair. Is a guy who would murder you if you cheated a great guy? Not to me.

[–] darrho 8 years ago

Jeffery love her too much and make he crazy when he found out the affair, I think Jeffery somehow find out she left Almasy but still has feeling for Almasy, that will make a husband sooooo sooo mad if you ask me, suicidal mad!

[–] contactlisaziweiwang 8 years ago

Hey Luzi,
I get that u somehow condemn the behaviour of the two "cheaters"/"main characters".
Just remember 2 things:
1. The book does not focus so much on catherine and almassy as main characters. It is filled with descriptions of nature and general existential fears of life. Maybe thats why minghella made such a loooong film-just consider longshots of the desert combined with the score an attempt to recreate those thoughts written in the book. The book is also far more filthy in some ways, as catherine seems much younger and almassy older
In one chapter it describes both having sex with almassy tasting her menstrual blood. Oondatje is a child of mixed
culture growing up surrounded
by residues of colonialism.
The book is a reminder to pacifism in many ways. It tells a lot more about caravaggio hana kip and others. And while they seem more as "goodies" who suffer loss, catherine and almassy(-weirdly comparable to Catherine and Heathcliff from Brontë) are the selfish ones-the idiots and fools who just react to their lust. Its all sort of a metaphor for colonialists, misunderstandings in close cultures(not anti-white surpremacy-no no but more than that- its anti-misunderstandings) catherine longs for a "world without maps"- a world without chaos(tho she herself is like chaos itself) she loves water and hedgehogs(cute animals who roll themselves into a spherical shield against
enemies) what i wanna say is:
Deplorable behaviour of the two (sidekicks in a powerful book) is maybe meant to be seen as deplorable. As a metaphor to the sheer despair of human existence(during unpredicted happenings such as war ..."i traded my maps ....flew with maddox plane with german gasoline.....after all this...i became english....isn t it funny?").
So to sum up: you are quite right. But so is everyone else who love that passionate couple. Simply because all is fair im love and war

[–] ryansassy1 8 years ago

I share your disgust. In fact, I looked up this board to see if anybody else was discussing the "tragic lovers" who actually were selfish and immoral. As you stated, the other characters were interesting and their stories could have been featured without forcing the so-called Great Love Story to the forefront. The romance between Katherine and Amasi wasn't even well- played, nor compelling -- just kind of lukewarm. The final result of the film as a whole was dulled.

And to think that this was the film that got the Oscar.

_________________________________
"I'm sorry, but.." is a self-contained lie.

[–] damist38 8 years ago

There are indeed two love stories in The English Patient. That of Hana and Kip is in many ways the more important one - they represent 'normal' people - you and I, albeit that their love crosses racial and cultural taboos, which is interesting of itself.

I praise this film for it's sweeping cinema-photography, but also it's nuance, as acted out with such respect by the superb cast. It is possible to reflect on a single scene for hours. The English patient is not English, not by his own standards, a hero - yet he is a man who understands the full sweep of history and our place in the world. I think it is because of this, that Katherine loves him.

Is it wrong to discover your true soul-mate after a (perhaps foolish, perhaps too young) commitment to marriage ? The film and book ask many questions - leaving you to find your own answers for your own life. Maybe the opinion of the author shows through in the terrible punishments handed out by fate (and the author) to Katherine and Almasy. There would not be many affairs in the world if every illicit relationship ended in such a manner.

Few films deserve an Oscar as much as this one.

[–] stargazerarts 8 years ago

This was not a love story.
It was a story about love.

Love is complicated, and it rarely follows a contrived formula (like the one you describe).

You are apparently furious because the film did not define the relationship of the protagonists in a way that would have made you feel comfortable, when that was never the intention to begin with - quite the opposite.

It's OK. There's nothing wrong with sticking to narratives that reinforce your moral values, but it sounds like you missed the point here quite completely.

[–] eole_eee 8 years ago

It's good that movies can stir some reactions and unsettle us.
That's what great movies actually do.
Infidelities happen, humans are contradictory, life is mysterious.
And the job of a director is to find a way to express these feelings, not to morally judge them and tell us how to feel about them.
And that's what bad movies do.