Too Much Like a Father?
Mr. Knightly was 17 years older than Emma and acted like a father to her. To me that would be a turn-off, but I guess there are many women who go for the father-figure type.
shareEmma has no need of a father figure - Mr Knightley is more like an older brother, if any relation, until their feelings for each other change. I think their long-standing friendship makes them one of the strongest partnerships in Austen's novels.
"Tony, if you talk that rubbish, I shall be forced to punch your head" - Lord Tony's Wife, Orczy
I'm just saying that with 17 years between him, and the fact that he scolds her like a father would his child, that my perception is he's too much like a father-figure to her, and therefore is a turn-off to me as I would never go for that type. It's why Emma is my least favorite Jane Austen books.
shareI'm not sure I agree that Emma has no need of a father figure. She is a capable, intelligent and independent-spirited woman, but it is her who looks after her father rather than the other way around. Mr Woodhouse is dependent on Emma, and guided by her. He is a loving father, but he sees no fault in her and is unable to help her correct her faults. Mr Knightley is the only person who can take on this role with Emma. Mr Woodhouse and Mrs Weston, though well-meaning, were unable. Mr Knightley is able to see her faults and correct her even though it is no pleasure for him to do so, because he loves her and knows she can be better. This, to me, is something that a father should do. Personally, I have never known an older brother to reprimand and lecture his sister the way that Mr Knightley does to Emma.
However, that's not to say that I don't like or believe in them as a couple. They have a spark and are intellectual equals. They complement each other without either dominating.
Hm, I see your point - that Emma looks to Mr Knightley for approval because his honest opinion of her faults and virtues counts for more than her father's unconditional praise - but I still don't see that she needs a 'father figure'. In anything, Emma is a daddy's girl, spoiled by her father's love and dependence, because he has let her 'be mistress of Hartfield' since she was thirteen. Fathers don't always see the weaker points of their beloved children, especially daughters!
"Tony, if you talk that rubbish, I shall be forced to punch your head" - Lord Tony's Wife, Orczy
So she needs a father figure in the sense of an adult who can guide her and point out her faults, since she is quite spoiled. But is such a father figure the one you fall in love with...?? I see the OP's point here.
And would it really make for an equal relationship?
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"The best kind of fairytale is one where you believe the people" -Irvin Kershner
Sorry, I didn't realise your post was in response to mine, until I received an e-mail from the IMDb after posting again Apologies for taking over the whole thread!
I don't think Emma needs a father figure, no - she has a father, for good or ill. I do think Emma respects Mr Knightley all the more because he tells her the truth, rather than spoiling her with the best intentions, like Mr Woodhouse and Mrs Weston.
For my take on the equality of their relationship, see above
"Tony, if you talk that rubbish, I shall be forced to punch your head" - Lord Tony's Wife, Orczy
They're intellectual equals? She's 20, he's 37. What 37 year old man would consider a 20 year old woman his intellectual equal? I'm sure he appreciates her mind, he is a Jane Austen hero after all, but they are not equal. This was 200 years ago, women were to look up to their husbands as superiors.
From Pride and Prejudice:
``Lizzy,'' said her father, ``I have given him my consent. He is the kind of man, indeed, to whom I should never dare refuse any thing, which he condescended to ask. I now give it to you, if you are resolved on having him. But let me advise you to think better of it. I know your disposition, Lizzy. I know that you could be neither happy nor respectable, unless you truly esteemed your husband; unless you looked up to him as a superior.
Emma and Knightley are far more equally matched than, say, Lizzie and Darcy, where the money, authority and social status are all his.
The film, and even the 2009 miniseries (which I love), fail to capture Emma's frustrated intelligence, but in the novel, Emma is more than a match for Mr Knightley. He might be the only one who doesn't cosset Emma and turn a blind eye to her 'little faults', but she is also the only woman who stands up to Mr Knightley. The disagreement over Harriet Smith and Robert Martin is perhaps the best example, whereby Mr Knightley only gets to have the last word because he walks away, but there is also a scene in the novel where Emma playfully answers to both Knightley brothers and cleverly gets her point across.
No, they are not equal, and there would no doubt be a lot of similar 'disagreements' throughout their marriage, but Emma would only back down if she knew herself to be in the wrong - so lots of sparks, witty banter, and perhaps too great an understanding of each other's foibles, but never a dull moment!
"Tony, if you talk that rubbish, I shall be forced to punch your head" - Lord Tony's Wife, Orczy
(In response to RubyHypatia)
Hmm - I don't think that quote from P&P proves your point. Mr Bennett is talking specifically about Elizabeth ("I know your disposition") and her happiness. Elizabeth would be frustrated with a husband she could walk all over; having someone to look up to stimulates her and brings out the best in her, reins in her excesses. At Longbourn and Meryton, she is a big fish in a small pond, and it's not that good for her. It also doesn't necessarily mean that her husband shouldn't also look up to her in some ways. Mr Bennet is at the same time acknowledging that there are men who his daughter could *not* esteem (like Mr. Collins), rather than insisting that she ought to consider her husband superior to her no matter who he is and what he's like.
As Mr Knightley says, "men don't want silly wives". Emma teases him that men want a sweet and simple girl like Harriet Smith, and he's not having any of it! He clearly relishes the challenge of an intelligent and well-educated woman like Emma. In fact, it happens throughout the book - every man that Emma picks out for Harriet actually prefers Emma herself, or the equally intelligent, very well-educated and accomplished Jane Fairfax. The only man to prefer Harriet is someone who, though sensible, is not particularly cultured (their shared enthusiasm for sensationalist mid-market novels underlines this).
I don't think age is that relevant - he may have more experience and knowledge of certain things, but her mind is as sharp as his (the obvious romantic blunders aside!). He even apologises for having always lectured her.
I can see a lover/husband/boyfriend reprimanding - I get tired of someone saying if a man does it, he's like a Father. That is just too gross. People say that girls will marry someone like their Father - YUCK!!! :( If someone said that to me, I'd tell them off. Knightley is a friend - soon to be husband/lover - he's justified in being the one to reprimand her. My friend Gary does the same to me - he acts like Knightley/Darcy rolled into one. :)
shareI agree that their relationship is one of, if not *the* strongest pairing in Jane Austen, not only for how well they know each other but also their equality in intelligence, social status, and wealth (the last two of which = no disparity in power).
However, I got a weird father-daughter vibe from this film that kind of put me off Emma until I saw the 2009 miniseries. Much more chemistry there, maybe because they had more time to develop the relationship and for some reason the age difference doesn't seem as big, even though Miller was actually older than Northam. In the film he just seems like an older guy who hangs around and suddenly Emma has feelings for him.
But it has been a long time since I've seen it, so maybe the age difference would seem less now because I'm older too :)