I'm watching the film now for the umpteenth time, and when Emma says THAT to Miss Bates... It's kills me. What could have possessed her to say that? I cringe at that scene every time
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue."
It IS excruciating, isn't it? No wonder Mr Knightley was upset with Emma.
Love your sig BTW!
I lost my jobshare
What? Why?... Not the Phantom Menace?
In some ways, it was inevitable. Emma's often-infuriating attitude toward "lesser beings" was likely to show up at some point in a serious faux pas like this. Sooner or later, one of her clever asides was going to be said to the wrong audience :(.
However, one of Emma's endearing traits is that once she actually sees her own faults, she can work to shift towards what she knows to be right - in this case, a shift from self-congratulatory superiority towards compassion.
I've always found her character fascinating. Underneath it all I am convinced (as is George Knightly) there lies a caring person - but there's this coat of vanity and hubris that's been layered on since the loss of her mother, and Isabella's departure. I guess you could consider Mr. Knightly as Emma's "Jiminy Cricket" :).
Many times she said things under her breath or in her head. She said this one out loud. She was a bit pompous, and it was a terrible thing to say to such a sweet woman.
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She'd just been snubbed and was beside herself. Generally she would think that but have the presence of mind not to voice it.
What fun is being cool if you can't wear a sombrero?
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I think it was just a gut reaction. Sometimes, when people annoy us so greatly on a continual basis the annoyance builds and builds until an inevitable explosion. Miss Bates' endless rambling and compliments/concerns/opinions of Jane Fairfax ad nauseum were enough to make a priest scream. Poor Miss Bates should be pitied but yes she is quite ridiculous.
shareBut really, Mrs. Bates was quite an overbearing and excessive character that reminded me of someone I used to know that I could not stand. While I do not condone Emma's behavior, I can absolutely understand why she would do such a thing.
shareWhat really kills me in that scene is that Mrs. Bates is trying to help Emma out. She sees that her friend has just been cut by the Eltons and she interjects her comment in order to turn the attention away from the slight.
It’s like kicking a puppy who was trying to play with you.
Miss Bates! :) Mrs. Bates was her mom!
shareatrain24 wrote:It has been a long time since I read the book, but my clear memory is that I was so fed up with Miss Bates by that point that I applauded Emma's comment. It is, for me, one of the highlights of the book.
What could have possessed her to say that?
It is never justified. Yes, Miss Bates is annoying, but a polite, well-bred person just deals with it. Like Mr. Knightley, and Mr. & Mrs. Weston. Emma was raised better than that, and Mr. Knightley is right when he says he thinks it's all Frank's influence.
http://currentscene.wordpress.com
Just out of interest, have you read the book?
Julie-30 wrote:We are going to disagree about that. I believe that being "polite" about chronic obnoxious behavior just encourages it to continue to the detriment of everyone around the person.
It is never justified.
But not everyone finds Miss Bates as obnoxious as you seem to .
Yes her 'wall of sound' can be annoying (it's a characteristic that does my head in when I meet it in real life), but she's also extremely kind, hospitable, cheerful and concerned for the well being of others. Emma was actively rude when there was no need to be. As Mr Knightley pointed out, the situation of the Bates family should have generated compassion and kindness, not scorn, a public insult and humiliation for an old friend of her family. As an influential woman in a small community, there was the risk that other people might have treated Miss Bates badly in future.
Augusta Elton, by contrast is truly vulgar, stupid and objectionable without a single redeeming feature but Emma manages to be civil to her. It's a small community and they're stuck with each other, they should at least be civil to each other.
Yes, I have read the book. Many times .
He looks like what happens when you punch a cow!share
weaselfrance wrote:Oh for God's sake. The setup was too tempting to ignore, and the comment just slipped out. There was no intention to offend. Emma said it before she thought about it.
Emma was actively rude when there was no need to be.
I believe that being "polite" about chronic obnoxious behavior just encourages it to continue to the detriment of everyone around the person.
So you think a public set-down is polite behavior? I disagree. Not in Austen's time, nor in the present.
But just because Austen loved Emma as a character doesn't mean she approved of that behaviour. In treating Miss Bates that way, Emma was acting like Caroline Bingley, and we all know what Austen meant her readers to think of Miss Bingley.
randommovies2002 wrote:So you think a public set-down is polite behavior? I disagree. Not in Austen's time, nor in the present.I have no idea how you could possibly have gotten that from what I wrote. I do think that politeness is overrated as a virtue particularly when it is taken to an extreme.
But just because Austen loved Emma as a character doesn't mean she approved of that behaviour.I don't "approve" of Emma's joke. I do understand that in the book it was her reaction to a considerable provocation over a period of years, and I understand why the joke slipped out. I don't blame her for it. My guess is Jane Austen enjoyed giving her that great line. There must have been many occasions on which Jane wished that she could have said something similar.
In treating Miss Bates that way, Emma was acting like Caroline Bingley, and we all know what Austen meant her readers to think of Miss Bingley. []The behavior of Caroline Bingley and of Augusta Elton is chronic and quite calculated. If Emma's joke had been a calculated insult, I would agree with the people who condemn it. But it clearly was not that.
Emma By Jane Austen Chapter 03
...but the quiet prosings of three such women [Mrs. and Miss Bates and Mrs. Goddard] made her feel that every evening so spent was indeed one of the long evenings she had fearfully anticipated.
I have only seen this film version once, but I love the novel and the 2009 series, so I thought I would chip in! I completely understand that polite, well-bred gentlemen and women were supposed to follow Mr Knightley's example and 'humour' Miss Bates, and for the most part, Emma does too. She even puts up with Mrs Elton, for heaven's sake! But I agree with you, ppllkk. Miss Bates walked into that one, and Emma spoke without thinking. If excuses are allowed, she was also disappointed with the whole Box Hill outing and trying to hide it, and Frank was encouraging her because he was feeling frustrated with Jane. BUT Emma immediately regrets her words, which is obvious in the same scene with Romola Garai, and without Mr Knightley to tell her what she has done wrong. Even if she feels that Miss Bates had that one coming, she knows that she should have held her tongue. When Mr Knightley picks her up on hurting Miss Bates' feelings, Emma goes on the defensive, but she later tries to make amends. Whenever I read that scene in the book, I am right there with Emma, sharing her embarrassment and shame - but also that first wicked glint of humour at Miss Bates' expense.
"Tony, if you talk that rubbish, I shall be forced to punch your head" - Lord Tony's Wife, Orczy
That was a typo. I meant to use the word "acceptable" not "polite."
I don't "approve" of Emma's joke.
Ahh. Thank you for clarifying. It was not clear from your other posts.
The behavior of Caroline Bingley and of Augusta Elton is chronic and quite calculated. If Emma's joke had been a calculated insult, I would agree with the people who condemn it. But it clearly was not that.
But the result is the same whether it was a calculated insult or not. Miss Bates was mortified and deeply hurt by it.
I don't cheer whenever I read or watch that part. In fact, despite having read the novel a bunch of times and having watched all the available adaptations a great many times, I still wince during that part! (I have even once or twice shouted at the tv, "Don't do it!")
Emma has suffered a lot in silence over the years.
And don't forget having to put up with Mr. Woodhouse. Her methods of "managing" him worked very well, but to have to go to such lengths all the time to maintain the household's equilibrium must have been wearying.
That was a typo. I meant to use the word "acceptable" not "polite."
So you think a public set-down is [acceptable] behavior?Oh, yes. It certainly can be. It depends on the circumstances.
I don't "approve" of Emma's joke.But I certainly enjoyed it. I hope I was clear about that.
Ahh. Thank you for clarifying. It was not clear from your other posts.
The behavior of Caroline Bingley and of Augusta Elton is chronic and quite calculated. If Emma's joke had been a calculated insult, I would agree with the people who condemn it. But it clearly was not that.I think a person's motivation matters. I don't blame Emma for her impulsive joke or think any less of her for it.
But the result is the same whether it was a calculated insult or not. Miss Bates was mortified and deeply hurt by it.
I don't cheer whenever I read or watch that part. In fact, despite having read the novel a bunch of times and having watched all the available adaptations a great many times, I still wince during that part! (I have even once or twice shouted at the tv, "Don't do it!")We clearly have very different tolerance levels for people like Miss Bates.
Emma has suffered a lot in silence over the years."Don't forget." Far from forgetting, that is the point. She has had to put up with a lot almost constantly, and "wearying" is a gross understatement.
And don't forget having to put up with Mr. Woodhouse. Her methods of "managing" him worked very well, but to have to go to such lengths all the time to maintain the household's equilibrium must have been wearying.
I've read the book several times since I was 11 years old. I'm now 52.
And Miss Bates is not obnoxious. She's annoying at times, but she's not intentionally obnoxious. She's also a good, kind, caring person who wouldn't intentionally hurt a fly.
So I do stand by what I said. Emma's behavior was inappropriate. She knows it, too. That's why she's so embarrassed when Mr. Knightley scolds her.
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Julie-30 wrote:Miss Bates is not intentionally obnoxious, but she is constantly and extraordinarily irritating to the point that in the book when Emma finally puts a sock in her, I cheered.
And Miss Bates is not obnoxious. She's annoying at times, but she's not intentionally obnoxious.
So I do stand by what I said. Emma's behavior was inappropriate. She knows it, too. That's why she's so embarrassed when Mr. Knightley scolds her.It is unfortunate that the incident happened because Miss Bates is so defenseless. Emma certainly agrees. But it would have been perfect if the object were someone not in her position.
Emma By Jane Austen Chapter 03
...but the quiet prosings of three such women made her feel that every evening so spent was indeed one of the long evenings she had fearfully anticipated.
Sorry, I had to chuckle when the poster asked you if you'd read the book. OF course they may have no way of knowing, but for the long time I've been posting among the various Austen adaptation boards, you're one of those who seemed to be the most knowledgeable of her books.
shareI wrote above:
In the movie, we have seen a lot less of Miss Bates than we do in the book, and the crack is not as justified as I found it to be there.
Mr. Woodhouse is twice as annoying as miss bates!
sharerebroxanna wrote:
Mr. Woodhouse is twice as annoying as miss bates!Mr. Woodhouse is certainly one of Jane Austen's many brilliantly annoying characters.I wonder if you are talking about the movie or the book because for people who have read the book, the character there carries over into the movie.At one point in the book Miss Bates goes on nonstop for something like 2 1/2 pages. What one finds annoying is obviously subjective. A real-life Miss Bates would bring out homicidal impulses in me. I literally could not stand to be around her. I know this from experience.I know there are people who do not find nonstop chatter all that annoying, or at least do not leave the room.I also know that I would not have anywhere near the kind of patience with Mr. Woodhouse that Emma does. Of course, she loves him and she is quite used to manipulating him. It's sort of a game that they play, like parents having to persuade a child to do something. They all know the child is going to do it in the end, but there is a ritual that has to be gone through. My observation is that both adults and children frequently seem to enjoy it.David-CG's very useful Scripts for Firefox: http://userscripts.org/users/67626 share
I just watched the movie again a few minutes ago, and even though I've seen it several times - I STILL cringe. It's just so painful. I think many of us have been in a situation where we've said something stupid and possibly callous without thinking and Miss Bates is such an endearing character - it's like smacking a puppy. So painful. I would have liked to see a scene of reconciliation but I think the movie was realistic in that that kind of thoughtless cruelty leaves a mark for a while.
Brilliant movie, and again....I am madly in love with Mr. Knightly. Sigh.
It is cringe-worthy. It is interesting that you are able to actually see Emma as a real person and ask why SHE would do thus and so. I, unfortunately, cannot. I only see the plot develop. If the following analysis is not pleasant to consider and does not coincide with other's wish to make Emma and Miss Bates real, the consider it a spoiler and pass it by.
This is hastely scribed and therefore might be less coherent than it should be, but here goes.
Given the touching discussion at the end between Emma and Mr Knightley, it is obvious Austen needed a significant jarring and unsettling event to spark open expression of the feelings between Mr Knightley and Emma.
NOT that the story had not been building to this point. In retrospect we can all see that Austen was obviously moving in that direction. And that is NOT to say it was predictable or that I "saw it coming." Not at all. It's just that in hind sight I can see the direction. For example, see how much Mr Knightley hangs out at Emma's house. See how often he refers to her as my dear Emma. Austen cleverly conceals that by having other close acquaintances also call her that, but he does it...a lot. But, and this is a big but (sorry for the expression), given both his tendency to honor gentlemanly propriety and her tricking herself into believing she was above "falling in love." Austen needed a jolt to make them become candid. Much of the dialogue throughout the novel is one of misunderstandings due to social conventions. Emma covered her condescension with politeness and even "helping" the poor. NOT that she was unkind, but obviously, underneath it, she felt herself better than those less witty (Miss Bates), less reserved (Jane), and poorer (made a "to do" to Harriet about helping).
Anyways, the faux pas on Box Hill jarred Mr Knightley as he saw how much Emma seemed, IHO, to be influenced by Frank. Yes, HE thought it was due to Frank's influence even if we might just see it as Emma being provoked and in a moment of carelessness, uttering her true thoughts. It also jarred Emma out of her self-claimed reserve. She realized in hindsight that she could, and indeed ultimately did make social blunders. Even if readers can sympathize, Austen does not have HER sympathize with herself after being jarred by Knightley's scolding. Austen had her know she was wrong.
Mr Knightley even admits it was the events on Box Hill that triggered his going away. And the "going away" to visit his brother and Isabelle further resolved his true feelings for Emma. I think it "broke" the spell for both of them and opened the way for candid dialogue that resulted in both admitting their true feelings to themselves, initially, and ultimately to each other.
rizdek wrote:
It is interesting that you are able to actually see Emma as a real person and ask why SHE would do thus and so. I, unfortunately, cannot.I have no idea what you are talking about. Part of the problem may be that I find it a pain to read things behind spoiler bars.Are you saying that Jane Austen simply manipulates Emma for her own purposes? All authors do that all the time. That is what fiction is. Emma has a very consistent personality, whether you like her or not, and the action comes out of her personality. Of course she is a "real" person.Jane Austen liked Emma even if you don't. So do I.I also have no idea why you would put most of your post behind spoilers. I cannot imagine anything that would be a spoiler about a plot that follows a 200-year-old book. And I did not see anything in your post that was even remotely a spoiler. All I saw was that you are being obnoxious by making your post harder to read than it would be without the bars.David-CG's very useful Scripts for Firefox: http://userscripts.org/users/67626 share
Gee. sorry for coming across so obnoxious! I removed the spoiler camo.
What do you mean if I don't like Emma. Just because I don't see her as a real person or even a real make believe person and just a character to play out a drama that Austen invented, does not mean I don't like it. It's my favorite Austen novel, the Emma adaptations are my favorite Austen adaptations and I like Emma as a character. IOW I'm one of those who does not wonder why Mr Knightley liked her. She had spirit and creativity. Not sure what made you think I didn't.
Besides, we see that Mr Knightley understood the frustration with Miss Bates. But unlike you, he just thought that her situation warranted better treatment from Emma. I sense that you might not hesitate to let folks know with little put- downs when they annoy you a lot. Is that true? So maybe in a real situation like that, you'd think that an Emma-like remark might actually help a Miss Bates be less silly and annoying? I'm sure they'd try to be more guarded around you. And you'd like that.
rizdek wrote:
Just because I don't see her as a real person and just a character to play out a drama . . .That does not make any sense to me. What is there about Emma that causes you to not be able to see her as a real person?
What do you mean if I don't like Emma.So, you like someone that you don't see as a real person. Okay.David-CG's very useful Scripts for Firefox: http://userscripts.org/users/67626 share
What is there about Emma that causes you to not be able to see her as a real person?
So, you like someone that you don't see as a real person.
rizdek wrote:
That was the point of my first post which seemed to annoy you so.I thought that I had made clear that what annoyed me was your ridiculous use of the spoiler bars. That you do not see her characters as "real" is something that I do not understand and that I have never run across before.
But I still don't see her characters as "real."Do you see any fictional characters as real? Do you ever get emotionally involved with characters and the situations that they are in?David-CG's very useful Scripts for Firefox: http://userscripts.org/users/67626 share
I thought that I had made clear that what annoyed me was your ridiculous use of the spoiler bars.
Do you see any fictional characters as real? Do you ever get emotionally involved with characters and the situations that they are in?
I can't tell if you are being intentionally obtuse or if you really don't understand the difference between seeing that the person Austen invented, Emma, IS intended to be a real person, a human being, as opposed to a genie, a child's "invisible playmate," a robot, a demon, or an angel, vs thinking this person Austen invented actually has inherent and independent thoughts, motives and agendas. Of course I understand that Austen, while sitting at her little writing table, thought of a person when she imagined Emma. But I don't imagine questions like, "What would cause Emma to do this or that, or say this or that?" Because to me, the obvious answer is...Austen.
So, do you sit and wonder what Emma actually thought about topics or people which Austen never actually suggested she thought about? I do know people who debate various characters in novels as if they have ulterior motives, specific agendas, knowledge and lines of reasoning that are never explicitly discussed or even suggested in the book itself. They are especially good at assigning nefarious motives and special knowledge to villains that are not mentioned or suggested by the author. It would not be as an insane person might actually imagine a real Emma, as if they thought Austen was somehow writing an biography, but more of a "get caught up in the moment/fantasy" and temporarily imagine her a real person and for a time think of her AS having a distinct, independent personality. That is what I don't do and I think folks who like to read can do.
rizdek wrote:
Yeah, I know what you wrote, but I found it hard to believe someone would get so worked up over spoiler bars. I mean, you brush your mouse across it and the text appears, clear as day. What's hard about that?If I could just turn off the bars, I would not object, but I can't. They pop in and out as I scroll. I cannot imagine what prompted you to use the bars. They serve no possible function except to annoy the person who is trying to read the post. I find it a really obnoxious thing to do.
You've never heard of that. I imagine folks you talk to about reading books... read books. They enjoy reading BECAUSE they have that ability to see the characters "come to life."I have never felt that there was any difference in my emotional involvement in a story because of the medium. There is a trade-off between the visual aspect in a movie and the words in the book.
I can't tell if you are being intentionally obtuse or if you really don't understand the difference between seeing that the person Austen invented, Emma, IS intended to be a real person, a human being, as opposed to a genie, a child's "invisible playmate," a robot, a demon, or an angel, vs thinking this person Austen invented actually has inherent and independent thoughts, motives and agendas.That it is ultimately the author in control is so obvious that I do not find it necessary to say. It appears that we have different conceptions about what describing a character in a work of fiction as "real" means. Of course a character does not have an independent existence, but equally obviously characters are intended to be real people. You seem to be making a distinction between a character "being a real person" and a character "being intended to be a real person. That is not a distinction that would've occurred to me because a character does not have an independent existence.
So, do you sit and wonder what Emma actually thought about topics or people for which Austen never actually suggested she thought about?I don't, but when a character does something, I notice if it is consistent with what I know about that character, or adds something new, or is just improbable.Emma's crack that was just too good to not say and that slipped out before she thought about it is exactly the sort of thing that she would do, especially given how constantly annoying Miss Bates is.David-CG's very useful Scripts for Firefox: http://userscripts.org/users/67626 share
Look, I never meant to be annoying.
Having never had any problems reading through the spoiler camo, I never imagined anyone would be bothered by it. I would never even think to use it as a means of being annoying...even if I had any reason to try to annoy anyone...because I've never been the least bit bothered by it, ever. Besides, I made it pretty clear why I put my post as a spoiler, but maybe you were too "unable" to read it to get what I said. It was done as rather tongue-in-cheek. But, and I just thought of this, notwithstanding your opinion that what I posted could ever be seen as a spoiler, because, you know, the story is 200 years old, it very well could be seen as a spoiler to someone, a young person, who had not read the book or watched any of the adaptations. So your opinion that my spoilers were ridiculous, was in itself, ridiculous.
rizdek wrote:
Look, I never meant to be annoying.Okay. I assure you that I never thought that you were trying to be annoying, just that you were.And I cannot imagine why you put the spoiler bars there. There are some people who think that noncritical incidents in a 70-year-old movies deserve spoiler bars, and I am partly reacting to that.
Having never had any problems reading through the spoiler camo, I never imagined anyone would be bothered by it.I have never seen a post with that much blacked out, and only one other with enough blacked out that I commented on it. If you are not used to scrolling, then I guess it would not bother you.David-CG's very useful Scripts for Firefox: http://userscripts.org/users/67626 share