So, the majority of folks in this are rich, right? I mean, Emma and Mr. Knightly and the Westons are all wealthy families. Even Mr. Martin does alright for himself. But, the question I have is this: Are they nobility? Gentry? Yeomanry? Are there any titles involved here? I mean, Mr. KNIGHTly, right? Is he a lord of some kind? Thanks all you Austen-philes out there!
shareMy understanding of English social structure is that gentry refers to people who have owned land for generations and were raised with certain cultural standards. Emma, Knightly, and the Westons were all gentry. No nobility there. Any nobility would be referred to and addressed by their title.
Like in Pride and Prejudice, with "My patroness, Lady Catherine de Buuuuuuurgh", as the cousin called her.
I'd guess that Austen named him Knightly because he's honorable and chivalrous.
Thanks to all for a nice discussion...echo the posted who mentioned this. I believe that Jane Austen's brother Edward was adopted by the Knight family (much the same way Frank Churchill was adopted) and eventually took the name Knight.
The Knightleys and the Woodhouses are landed gentry. No one in Emma has a title, which is why it's Mr Knightley and not Lord/Earl/Sir George etc.
Mr Weston made his money in trade, so although he's reasonably well off, and owns land he's not quite considered a gentleman. The same is true of the Coles.
Mr Elton, as a clergyman, is considered a gentleman even though he works. He's punching above his weight in trying to bag Emma as she has a fortune of £30,000. Augusta Elton came from a family where the father was a tradesman of some sort (there are hints in the book it was the slave trade) so her marriage brought her 'up' a social class.
Robert Martin is of the yeoman class, as a farmer.
Harriet Smith's father is a tradesman, but her position is delecate as she's an illegitimate child.
Although they're poor, the Bates family are considered genteel, by virtue of the fact that the late Mr Bates was a vicar.
Bit complicated this, isn't it?
He looks like what happens when you punch a cow!share
Quite right, I hadn't read the book or seen an adaptation for a long time.
shareWhat wonderful replies! Thank you both SO much for the considered and thoughtful replies. Mr. Knightly would be proud. :) And I LOVED the "Punching above his weight" bit re: Mr. Elton! LOL
shareWell thank you! It's an interesting topic. And, it's so nice when conversations on IMDB are pleasant and interesting and respectful. Austen fans are special.
I also wanted to ask weasalfrance about clergymen. I was thinking that, generally, they would come from the landed gentry, is that right? Although they are often poor, wouldn't they come from a "gentle" background? How often, in this period, did sons from a family in trade go into the clergy?
Am just assuming this from novels I've read.
Thanks!
You're correct about clergymen often coming from the landed gentry. Younger sons who weren't inheriting the estate or fortune generally went into the military or the church--other professions like merchant or lawyer/barrister or whatnot were still considered rather lower class. It was certainly possible for a family of trade to go into the clergy, but I imagine you had to have good connections, since the livings (like the one or Col Brandon's or Lady Catherine's estates) were in the hands of the gentry or nobility to dispense to the "worthiest" candidate. Livings were also quite often sold by the owner of the estate to which the living was attached; which meant the clergyman needing the means to buy it, another reason the clergy came from families that might be better off.
Come, we must press against the tide of naughtiness. Mind your step.
And for a more serious look at the ramifications of this system, I recommend Jude, the Obscure (book, not movie).
shareClergymen would often come from wealthy or landed families, since it was seen as a useful career rather than a vocation (which is why some of Austen's clergymen don't seem to care about any spiritual aspects of the role, like Mr Elton and Mr Collins).
To be a clergyman, it was essential to have a university degree, which could be an expensive business. The bills would have to be paid by the man's family, or a patron (like Mr Darcy Sr. paying for Wickham to go to university in P&P) or he could get a scholarship (many of the male Austens, including Jane's father received free tuition at university since they were related to the man who'd founded the college they attended). In practical terms, the working classes could never have afforded to become clergymen.
He looks like what happens when you punch a cow!share
There is an excellent chapter on this subject ("Patronage") in the book, Jane Austen and the Clergy by Irene Collins.
shareMy copy of that has arrived this morning. Looking forward to the end of term for a good reading session or two, or three......or four.....
He looks like what happens when you punch a cow!share
Thank you for your explanation. The various shades of the gentility of the gentry is a rather unknown topic and needed such a thorough discussion. This is particularly true of subtle differences such as that between the Woodhouses and the Westons.
shareExcellent synopsis of the class strata and relations!
Minor cavil - the novel seems to hold Mr. Weston as rather higher on the social ladder than Mr. Cole. Mr. Weston, while born into a trade-rich family, inherited a competence and joined the militia. The money was squandered by the first Mrs. Weston, Frank Churchill's mother, and Mr. Weston returned to trade following Frank's being "adopted" by the Churchills.
Miss Taylor has done very well for herself in marrying Mr. Weston - the novel makes note that Mr. Weston can afford his choice of wife, even one so portionless as Miss Taylor.
Also, Mr. John Knightley is an attorney, and we know he works at his business, but is unquestionably a gentleman.
So it's an awfully complicated dance . . .
Oh, right. So, she secretly trained a flock of sandflies.
Regarding the church profession, I'll add that Mr. Bronte, father of the Brontes, attended St. John's, Cambridge, on a scholarship. He was a lower-class native of Northern Ireland, born in 1777, only a year after Jane Austen.
And I toss in a funny line about the profession from the marvelous screenplay of _Kind Hearts and Coronets_ - this is an observation made by Louis, the narrator and central character of the movie:
"The D'Ascoynes certainly appeared to have accorded with the tradition of the landed gentry and sent the fool of the family into the church."