MovieChat Forums > Courage Under Fire (1996) Discussion > Why is this movie rated so low

Why is this movie rated so low


I really enjoyed this movie when I saw it, which was a couple of years ago. I don't know what the other threads say but I'm curious as to why so many people think it's not a very good movie. Am I the only one who think this movie should be at least a 7.5?

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The simple answer {coming from a Caucasian} is racism. {?}

Every movie where the star is black is in the 6's; there are exceptions but the only movie where the star is black that is in the top 250 is 'Hotel Rwanda' then....nothing else.

I think people go to Denzel movies and just vote 1.

If you find films that deify my logic let me know, I'm pretty confident Training day should be an 8, or Malcolm X.

Again there are exceptions, but very few.

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So the fact that you happen to be Caucasian and spouting this misguided, irrational, self-important drivel makes it any better than if you were non-white and doing so? Nah, I don't see it that way, in fact, your post looks more pathetic as a result. Go consume some laundry detergent.

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Actually on the contrary Mrs. Doe, I think I need to state that I'm Caucasian otherwise I would be viewed as racist that is looking at it one sided.

My friend actually brought it up one day because I always reference IMDB about stuff {about how great Arrested Development is}, and he had a valid point. You cant prove me wrong, can you?
Can you name 6 Films above an 8 that features a black actor in the staring role? I think not.
Your probably one of the ones that vote 1 on every Denzel Washington movie; you probably came here to vote a 1 and then saw my post and was like "OH NO, He's on to us, I must say something to throw him off of are trail."


All jokes aside, because I like you {even though you want me to drink detergent and die} I'm still your friend.
The question was asked why this movie is rated so low, I gave a valid answer.
Do you feel the movie should be a 6?
I have yet to see it {like I said earlier} but going off the directors track record it should be at least a 7, I view Scorsese movies that way also.
I look forward to your reply.

I'm bored at work so I went through your post {stalker style} and I share your opinion on a lot of things. Prince of Persia is great, Orson Wells is fascinating {and Unicron}, your movies of the 90's I can't disagree with.

But on the opposite side 'Clockwork orange' is genius...
Oh' and 'Sonic Adventure' for Dreamcast was also great...I don't know what happened to the others though.
But anyway, you where saying that you wanted to branch out more. If I can make a suggestion, you should check out some more foreign films.
It's a totally new experience when everything starts seeming similar.

If you haven't seen 'OldBoy' or '3-Iron' you should check'em out you won't regret it. You'll say "O.S.{look at me hiding behind my screen name} your the best for recommending these movies." Also check out 'Requiem for a Dream'.

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how many movies in the top 100 have Canadians in the lead role?
Not enough.....therefore, the only LOGICAL explanation is that everyone who votes in IMDB hates Canadians.
heh, this is fun
Your logic is flawed my friend





"It just so happens he is only MOSTLY dead" - Miracle Max

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You want 6 movies that feature blacks in leads or co-leads that are at or above an 8 on the ratings?

Shawshank Redemption
Glory
Hotel Rwanda
Crash
Pulp Fiction
American Gangster

By the way, Roots is rated as an 8.7.

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The Shawshank Redemption
Pulp Fiction
The Matrix
The Green Mile
Django Unchained
12 Years A Slave
Se7en
The Help
Crash

Boo-yah.

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I hated this movie and I'm not a racist. In fact, I think Denzel Washington was the best thing in this movie.

There were glaring inaccuracies regarding ALL the combat scenes. The film makers had no interest in getting it right. I don't mind inaccuracies in some low brow popcorn Rambo type movie that isn't trying to take it self seriously. But I find it incredibly insulting in a movie that tries to be a serious piece of drama.

It is obvious the film makers did zero research, had no understanding of the most basic tactics... and at times disregarded the laws of physics.

Not everything is about race.
Denzel Washington is a terrific actor, but his talents were wasted in this terrible film.

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I agree not everything is about race; As a matter of fact i hate people that blame everything on race {my ex-wife use to say Conan O'Brian was a racist {?}. That’s nuts Conan’s just funny; but she swore by it}.

Again, I haven't seen the movie in question; but I assume just off the strength of the directors other films that it should be good {I could be very wrong}, I'll try to watch it next week sometime.

I appreciate you giving me reasons why you don't like the film opposed to just asking me to kill my self. Do his other films have the same inaccuracies; my history knowledge is rather poor.

And lastly, I don't think Denzel is the greatest actor ever, but he does have some good movies. I honestly believe in the conspiracy that every black film gets rated low. If it can be disputed, please by all means, align my thinking.

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the term conspiracy implies that there is a plot devised by someone to make this happen, and so they can benefit from it
Explain the conspiracy to me.

How many movies have black lead actors as a % of all films ever made?
You take that # and apply it to the top 250 on imdb and I feel strongly that you will have discovered that your thinking has be realigned.


"It just so happens he is only MOSTLY dead"

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The Canadian Directors with films in the top 250.
Paul Haggis
Norman Jewison
James Cameron,

The Actors that star in a film on the 250.
Jim Carrey,
Michael J. Fox,
Brendan Fraser {in crash as much as any},
Carrie-Anne Moss,
Keanu Reeves,
Fay Wray,
{I can't believe there isn't a Star Track movie in the 250}
Kiefer Sutherland is in 'Stand by me' not sure if he stars though.

So the Conspiracy continues...
Sorry I couldn't replay sooner, I was away from the computer.
Also my argument is not that there should be more movies that have a black star in the top 250; its that most movies staring a black actor have extremely low ratings.

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This would be a very interesting comment - if you had backed up a single statement in it!

'There were glaring inaccuracies regarding ALL the combat scenes' - you may well be right, but then you should be able to list them, and explain why they are inaccurate.

'The film makers had no interest in getting it right.' Did they announce this somewhere, or are you telepathic? If you think they got it wrong, fair enough, but how do you claim to know their intention? I saw a documentary on the making of this film, and they seemed to be going to great lengths to get it right. Their job was made much harder when the US Army PR Office, having read the story, decided it was an anti-army movie (hard to argue with them on that score!) and withdrew all assistance. The producers had to take whatever help they could get, including buying ex-Australian army Centurion tanks to trick up as Abrahams.

'at times disregarded the laws of physics' - which ones? I have seen it a couple of times, but everything that goes up seems to come down. You may be referring to the scenes showing the turret flying off a T-54 (one shot repeated about three times) after hits from depleted uranium shells (which they keep calling 'uranium depleted shells'), which I would agree is probably inaccurate, but that was the only physics blooper I noticed.

I guess it is all relative. After all, 'Pearl Harbour' shows fighter aircraft dodging around battleship masts in combat scenes, which is straight out of a cartoon or a 'Star Wars' movie. I must check the message board to see if you have a similar rant at this nonsense.


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Fair enough. It's been months since I've seen this film so I'll write regarding what I can remember.

But first, I would disregard whatever selfserving remarks the film makers made about all the research they put into being as accurate as possible in the making of the film. This is the kind of fluff film makers always say to lend credibility to their work in behind-the-scenes featurettes. For example, even the Michael Bay film "Armageddon" boasts how closely they worked with NASA to be as authentic as possible yet wound up dsregarding physics and natural law. The makers of "Courage Under Fire" could claim to have done mountains of research but it doesn't mean they let reality get in the way of what they wanted to shoot. And military advisors are only there to answer questions for the film makers, not to correct them.

My gripes with the inaccuracies weren't the fact that they didn't have authentic equipment and had to rely on mock ups. I understood that. I also didn't mind the slight errors regarding some of the uniforms. I wrote my initial comment shortly after having seen the film so this is from what I can remember...

Lou Diamond Philips plays a SAW gunner from the 82nd Airborne who just happens to be hanging out with the medics (from a completely different division) playing cards and goes along for a ride with them. He abandoned his unit in the middle of a war? He just decided to go along for the ride and they let him? This is not how things work... but this was just a little thing.

When they come up on the battle scene to rescue wounded Americans, the Iraqis and Americans are all out in the open fighting in the most cartoonish keystone cops non tactical way possible. I guess the director wanted to see them all on camera.

During the day and night that the helicopter crew are on the ground fending off Iraqis while waiting for rescue they are set up in a small five meter perimeter, bunched together, all facing the same direction. This was absurd. They should have been over run in seconds. They were bunched up presumably because, on camera, they needed to have them all in frame at the same time for some of the arguments. That looks good on camera but was tactically retarded and narrowed down their fields of fire and the ground they could defend making it incredibly easy for even the most untrained enemy to advance on their flank... especially since the film makers have the chopper crew all defending in the same direction. Throughout the entire night, the Iraqis could not think to go around them and kept assaulting from the same direction?

But these are only minor quibbles. There are two scenes in this film that I recall vividly as being among the most logic defing scenes I'd ever seen in a war movie.

First was the scene where they destroy the Iraqi tank with a fuel blivet and a flare. That a huey would be that close to an Iraqi tank without having been shot down before it got within 500 meters is ridiculous, but okay, they had to be filmed that close together to be on screen. The crew inside a helicopter can not disconnect a fuel blivet from within like that... no way. So they magicaly unattach it. A fuel blivet dropped on a tank would not burst... they are tougher than that. But let's say it did burst and some fuel got on the tank. Let's also say the fuel could be ignited by a flare gun. At worst, the tank would find itself in a puddle of burning fuel with some burning fuel on top of it. The tank would simply drive off the burning puddle and whatever burning fuel was on the tank would continue to burn until it burned itself out. The tank would be unharmed. In this movie, however, the tank explodes when there is fire on it. This defies logic, reason... and, of course, physics.

The most absurd logic defying moment, however, goes to the final tank battle scene with Denzel Washington, where to avoid further incidents of fratricide, he orders all the tanks under his command to turn on their headlights and instructs his gunner to fire on any tanks with their headlights off. This just showed the film makers could care less about authenticity, did zero research, and ignored any military advisor they had. His gunner accidently fired on a friendly tank because he did not take the time to identify it. So instead of ordering his other tanks to make sure they identify their targets before firing (see the special markings that are illumintaed through the night vision scopes) Denzel Washington's character orders his men to turn on their headlights in the middle of a battle... giving away their positions to every Iraqi tank and dismounted infantryman with antitank weapons in the area. Their nightvision capabilities were what gave the the greatest edge over the Iraqis, and not only did they throw that away in this film, but they illuminated themselves, marking themselves as giant targets. This defies all logic and reasoning and, had a commander actually done this during the Gulf War, not only would he have been courtmartialed, he would have suffered heavy losses from the enemy.

There is also anther basic rule of logic that makes this plan of shooting tanks with no headlights so stupid in the film...
Denzel orders his gunner, and all other tanks, to fire on any other tanks with no headlights on. In fact a scene plays out with the gunner saying he sees a tank... Denzel asks if he sees headlights... the gunner responds "no." Without checking the tank type or looking for markings, Denzel gives the order to fire. Hmmmm... let's see how this would play on a real battlefield... There would be even more fratricides then before because not only would they shoot every American tank with its headlights out, but every American tank with its headlights obscured by obstacles in front of it... and of course (here's where the film makers put no thought into this) every American tank that was not facing each other would also be fired on... you can not see the headlights if you are looking at the back or a rear angle of the tank. Thanks to Denzel's "shoot anything without headlights" order, unless all the American tanks were in a circle, facing each other, there would be countless friendly fire accidents as advancing tanks shot each other in the back.

You asked for examples. These are just what I could remember off the top of my head.

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"During the day and night that the helicopter crew are on the ground fending off Iraqis while waiting for rescue they are set up in a small five meter perimeter, bunched together, all facing the same direction. This was absurd. They should have been over run in seconds. They were bunched up presumably because, on camera, they needed to have them all in frame at the same time for some of the arguments. That looks good on camera but was tactically retarded and narrowed down their fields of fire and the ground they could defend making it incredibly easy for even the most untrained enemy to advance on their flank... especially since the film makers have the chopper crew all defending in the same direction. Throughout the entire night, the Iraqis could not think to go around them and kept assaulting from the same direction?"


If memory serves me right, the crew was five (5), Walden (pilot), Rady (co-pilot) wounded/comatose, Monfriez (gunner), Altameyer (crew/crew-chief?), and Ilario (medic). The weapons available: m249 (SAW squad automatic weapon), m16a2, and various sidearms. The only combat personnel available, three persons (3), were: Monfriez - SAW, Altameyer - m16a2, and Walden sidearm; I don't think they really could have defended a much larger perimeter. They were defending the direction that they were being attacked from, seems logical? I also remember it being stated that the Huey, their chopper, went down between the Iraqis and the Blackhawk. It is possible that the Iraqis could have come in behind them or flanked them, but; that is not what happened until later.

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I think your racism argument doesn't hold water, therefore it's *beep*

Caffeine Junkie

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Wow, I have heard everything now. The low rating has nothing to do with the leading actor being black. Are you really a caucasian?

I happen to like Denzel as an actor and one of my favorite actors is Morgan Freeman.

The movie is rated low because it is flawed. Also, Meg Ryan's performance was painful to watch.

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[email protected] "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist."

I don't want to be known as the conspiracy guy...It's just a conversation me and a friend had. We started going through different films and was amazed at are results. Sure most black films are foolish dramas or comedies, but films like Malcolm X and Coming to America should have higher scores.

Check some other films, you'll see.

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The Great Debaters, Denzel Washington, 7.6
American Gangster, Denzel Washington, 8.0
Deja Vu, Denzel Washington, 7.0
Inside Man, Denzel Washington, 7.7
Man on Fire, Denzel Washington, 7.7
Antwoine Fisher, Denzel Washington, 7.3
Training Day, Denzel Washington, 7.6
Remember the Titans, Denzel Washington, 7.5
The Hurricane, Denzel Washington, 7.4
Crimson Tide, Denzel Washington, 7.2
Philadelphia, Denzel Washington, 7.6
Much Ado About Nothing, Denzel Washington, 7.4
Malcolm X, Denzel Washington. 7.7
Glory, Denzel Washington, 8.0

I'm tired of typing. Too bad there's not some place, some place with reference data, something you could have looked up, before making such a stupid post and making a fool of yourself.

This movie is low rated because it is the one where Meg Ryan proved her acting range doesn't extend beyond RomCom.

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Racism. Always the bottom of the barrel answer to everything. All I've ever heard from ANYONE is that Denzel is one of THE best actors of our time. And won't miss a film he's in. There are thousands and thousands of films that get a bad rap and there isn't a lead black male. Go fishing for another answer.

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training day was a really good movie. Washington was amazing in it. didn't he win an oscar?

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The movie ain´t nothing special - the story would have been good as a JAG episode, the sub plot about Denzel FF killing his buddy is quite dispensable. All actors perform extremly well on the other hand, Denzel does great job as usual, Meg Ryan really surprised me showing her tough side, and Matt Damon and Lou Diamond Phillips give both some of their best performances. So the rating is ok as it is.

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the sub plot about Denzel FF killing his buddy is quite dispensable.

Absolutely disagree. It totally ties into why the Denzel character is so doggedly determined to uncover the truth in the Karen Walden investigation. He is racked with guilt over his involvement in the friendly fire death of a friend AND the Army's covering it up.


You must be the change you seek in the world. -- Gandhi

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First of all, it's not rated THAT low. Second, it's not THAT good. I kind of enjoyed it but the fates of all her crewmen were way too dramatized, and the cover-up conspiracy aspect wasn't that well done, either. The problem was I think it wanted to be a pretty realistic military drama so the unrealistic aspects weren't very excusable.

"I am Jack's wasted life."

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[deleted]

[deleted]


IMDB is a useless place for determining the worth or quality of a film. Plain and simple.
Exactly and thank you for stating what should be obvious to everyone. Oh, there are plenty of insightful comments here to learn about movies, but the ratings are just an un-scientific popularity contest among some overly represented demographic.

I'm not sure why I even started reading this thread, other than I'm trying to figure out why every message board on IMDb has to turn at some point to somebody leveling some charge of racism. The OP reports an interesting find, but frankly I don't know what to make of it. I guess it's possible that amongst those who choose to vote on movies here, there could exist some insidious racism, but that is frankly a pretty wild speculation concerning a fairly disparate population.

"Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye." 2001: A Space Odyssey

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The first thing I did when I saw the 6.6 rating was scroll down for a thread like this.

Absolute baloney. I had this one pegged around a 7.2-7.3 rating as a guess coming in. I gave it an 8.

Great movie.

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I agree that it should be slightly higher - over a seven, I'd say. I wouldn't call it a great film, though. It's a solid one, well-acted, and the story is decent. It just didn't offer anything too surprising or provocative (not that it wasn't moving at parts). If I could give half stars, I'd give it a 7.5. I'm not really comfortable rounding up to eight, nor rounding down to seven. I gave it a seven because I'm slightly more comfortable doing that.

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To clarify - I think this is ranks as a weak 3 on a 4-star scale. 2 1/2 if I want to be really, REALLY harsh on it and nitpick the technical aspects, but I'm not the kind of guy who likes to be really harsh to movies he enjoyed watching. I do not think it as exactly a 7/10 movie, but owing to my definition of "weak 3," I'm rounding down instead of up. Oh, well. It's only half a star. It's fitting for a movie that was good and featured some fairly well-executed pathos, but not the kind of movie that'll stick with me for very long.

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Malcom X not being in the top 250 really says alot about these ratings. I'm not saying anything about racism, but I'm just saying that Denzel Washington's performance was electrifying. No matter how you feel about the director, Denzel must be noted. American History X isn't a perfect movie by any means, but it is number 40 in the top 250 because Norton gave a great performance. Why isn't Malcom X given the same consideration?

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LOL...I love how this thread is still going, I haven't been back to here in a year. I still haven't seen the Film, though I saw Defiance {same director} the other day and liked it.

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Courage Under Fire is rated so low because it's a fairly mediocre film, not because people are racist.

Plus, there are tons of movies that are rated lower than they should be, the main reason being is that they're not newer releases. Newer movies on here tend to break the top 250 if they're halfway decent.

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[deleted]

this guy does make a valid point about the race talk though. seems like a black film has to be about slavery, being poor or violence just to get a decent rating

The Best Man: 5.9 (really?)
Dead Presidents: 6.6 (should be atleast in the 7's)
ATL: 5.1 ( I know T.I sucks as an actor but the movie was decent)
New Jersey Drive: 6.1 (underrated film)
Crooklyn: 6.6 (really?)
Clockers: 6.9 (are you f'n serious?)

this is the one that really got me

Fresh: 7.5 (probably the most underrated film i've ever seen, should be a 8.2)

these are just a few off the top of my head I can think of. But i'm not saying all black films are great because anything tyler perry does is horrible and coming from a black man I'll tell you we all don't love his *beep* work

but sometimes I feel as if some people don't even fully give the movie a chance and just rate it low because it is a black film

I'm a hardcore movie buff who enjoys coming on IMDB and looking at how others feel about my favorite films like goodfellas, pulp fiction, city of god, out of sight, requiem of a dream, etc... I'm a fan of all type of movie's so usually when i check out black films I enjoy majority of the time it's a extremely low rating... and when i mean low its ranked as low as a hulk hogan film.. now thats just down right crazy lol

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It might be rated low due to Karma, based on this quote from actor Bronson Pincho (taken from his imdb bio section):

"(2009, on making Courage Under Fire) That was a low point, because Denzel Washington was behind the incredibly cowardly *beep* of "This is my character, not me." He was really abusive to me and everybody on that movie, and his official explanation was that his character didn't like me, but it was a dreadful experience. I spent my salary on time with my shrink just for helping me get through it...Denzel Washington cured me forever of thinking that there is any amount of money or anything that could ever, ever make it okay to be abused. The script supervisor on that movie said it's like watching somebody kick a puppy. He was so vile. And after that, I just would never endure it again."

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001621/bio

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A hack complaining about the preparation of a method actor? That's nothing new. Pincho was primarily a TV actor, so it's a whole different world. Not surprised that Denzel made him uncomfortable. If what he says is true, then that means that Matt Damon had to endure the so called abuse as well. He turned out alright. So I guess he must've realized that it was nothing personal. Maybe he even learned some things from it.

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I think the actors name is Bronson Pinchot and not Pincho. But that is a minor point.

I don't agree that it is Karma that gives the movie a low rating. A lot of good movies have low ratings but have no "dreadful experiences" on the set.

Also there are actors who were and are difficult to work with but it doesn't effect whether the movie has a high or low rating.

I suspect travelergirl was using the thread to make the point about the abuse Bronson felt, or thought he felt, during the making of the movie. The odd thing is there must be dozens and dozens of actors who have worked with Danzel Washington and have never complained about the way they are treated by him.

In addition, Danzel Washington has made a ton of movies that have a rating of 7 or higher after Courage Under Fire. Wouldn't the Karma carrying over?

IMHO the movie deserves a 7 rating. The movie made a big impact on me and I have never forgotten it. A powerful film to me.

But movies are like food. Everyone has their own taste.

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I thought the story was alright but Meg Ryan was horrible in this, her acting was to me pretty laughable.. The only bright spot in this was Denzel..

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not just meg, the mean suicidal guy, and the black guy with bad injury were hilarious too.

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