MovieChat Forums > The Usual Suspects (1995) Discussion > Plot giveaway?

Plot giveaway?

posted 8 years ago by JayHysterio
22 replies | jump to latest

When they first meet with Kobayashi, he (Kobayashi) mentions all their names and how he was familiar with them...except Verbal. He says something like "I take it you must be Mister Kint, the man who shot Saul".

The only way Kobayashi would know that is through Verbal himself. No one survived the heist, they never told Redfoot who killed Saul...so how else would he know?

Here is the actual script for this scene:

"I am Mr. Kobayashi. I've been asked by my
employer to bring a proposal to you
gentlemen. That must be Mr. Hockney. I
recognize Mr. Fenster from his mug shot,
as well as Mr. McManus.
(To Verbal)
I can only assume that you are Mr. Kint.
I believe you were the one who disposed
of Saul. My employer sends his gratitude.
A most unexpected benefit."

http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Usual-Suspects,-The.html

[–] Stratego 8 years ago

I think the idea is that Soze is so powerful, he even knows who shot Saul. Maybe thanks to security footage or some other witness in the parking garage or perhaps he bugged them. It's possible that it's supposed to be a hint when looking back, but I doubt that moment actually took place the way it did.

[–] JayHysterio 8 years ago

But these guys were professional heist men, waiting for the van. Certainly they would've staked out the spot and been aware of any surveilliance or witnesses, or they would've worn their masks like they did in the cab heist which was in public.

It would also take away any connection from Verbal to Soze...as Verbal at that point was under the same threat as the rest of them from Soze, as far as anyone knew at that point.

I'm not saying this was a deliberate hint, but maybe something they missed when writing the script?

[–] Stratego 8 years ago

I don't think it was something the scriptwriter missed, as the script describes the gang being shocked at how Soze would know that Verbal shot Saul.

[–] JayHysterio 8 years ago

Because Verbal was Soze, although again...why would Kobayashi risk giving that away by saying what he said? Unless it was to "threaten" Verbal/Soze in front of the others as to make him appear to have no connection to Soze.

[–] Stratego 8 years ago

Well, again, it emphasized how powerful Soze was. That's why the script describes the guys being shocked at Kobayashi knowing such information.

why would Kobayashi risk giving that away by saying what he said? Unless it was to "threaten" Verbal/Soze in front of the others as to make him appear to have no connection to Soze

Ofcourse Kobayashi's intention is also to let Verbal know that Soze has dirt on him that he can use as leverage. You say it's risky, but also remember that this scene probably didn't play out like this in reality.

[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

Because Verbal was Soze, although again...why would Kobayashi risk giving that away by saying what he said?

He's not. It's to show the guys that they're constantly being watched. Even when they think they aren't. The fact that Kobayashi knows who did the shooting is proof to them how powerful Keyser is.

Unless it was to "threaten" Verbal/Soze in front of the others as to make him appear to have no connection to Soze.

That too.

Let's be bad guys.

[–] JayHysterio 8 years ago

That would have to assume that Verbal was NOT Soze.

[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

Exactly. Nobody did.

Let's be bad guys.

[–] Klockard23 8 years ago

The gang could have assumed that he maybe bugged their vehicle and/or wherever they were staying and heard one of them mention it in a conversation that took place off-screen later on (sometime in-between Saul's murder and the introduction of Kobayashi.) Verbal may of even mentioned it himself intentionally just for that reason.

[–] JayHysterio 8 years ago

Yeah I guess there's always the off camera possibility, I'm just going by the on screen action;

They met with Redfoot

Redfoot knew Saul

They performed the heist, killed everyone; from what we see no witnesses, cameras etc.

Redfoot knew about Saul's death at their second meeting; possibly through the grapevine when the bodies were found, however still doesn't know who specifically killed Saul

Redfoot sets up the meeting with Kobayashi; who acts as intermediatary for Soze

Kobayashi ID's Verbal as Saul's killer at the meeting (how he knew is the question)

I just don't see anything actually shown that would lead to other possibilities other than Verbal was Soze and thus controlled everything from inside...leading to the setup of the ship shootout and removing the witness against him (Soze)

Another thing; during the heist, the film seems to shock the audience that Verbal, the least likely of the Usual Suspect, would kill Saul with such cold and calculated efficiency when no one else could (or would in Keaton's case). This cold and calculated look was the persona of Soze, exhibited by Verbal.

[–] Klockard23 8 years ago

I just don't see anything actually shown that would lead to other possibilities other than Verbal was Soze and thus controlled everything from inside...leading to the setup of the ship shootout and removing the witness against him (Soze)

Well, that's the idea, isn't it? The point (as Stratego said) is to build this aura around Keyser Soze as if he's an all-seeing, almost omnipotent-like secretive crime lord who knows things about other criminals that he really shouldn't know. Not knowing how he could come across such knowledge is part of the fun, most audiences don't over think it and just roll with it. Plus, like I said, we don't see 99.9% of the verbal interactions they have with one another off-screen, so people watching the film can just assume he's bugged their private conversations with one another and discovered who killed Saul that way.

[–] JayHysterio 8 years ago

And as I'm saying that scene imo gives away the plot twist at the end. It's very subtle to be sure and most people likely don't connect it, especially viewing the film the first time.

[–] jbaddock 8 years ago

It's very subtle to be sure and most people likely don't connect it, especially viewing the film the first time.

Exactly. One of the pleasures of this film is that you can watch it a second time and pick out the hints about Verbal's role along the way - and there are several, not least the one that the story is being told by a con man - a professional, and very skilled, liar, in other words. You're being told almost from the start that he is an unreliable narrator, but somehow we don't take the message in the first time.

[–] PreachCaleb 8 years ago

And as I'm saying that scene imo gives away the plot twist at the end.

It doesn't because Kobayashi also points out that Hockney was the one who robbed the truck at the beginning of the movie. Something he was sure nobody else, not even Verbal, knew.

It's established Soze knows things about all of them.

So if anything, it would make it more like Hockney is Soze since he's the one who knows about the truck robbery and that Verbal killed Saul.

Let's be bad guys.

[–] Stratego 8 years ago

And as I'm saying that scene imo gives away the plot twist at the end.

Not really, any of the other guys could've forwarded that information to Kobayashi.

It's very subtle to be sure and most people likely don't connect it, especially viewing the film the first time.

That's exactly it. No one in the audience will conclude Verbal is Soze just because of that. They're just gonna be shocked that Soze would know this, just like the gang.

[–] thunderhawk1071 8 years ago

Any 'plot giveaways' are a non-entity. I just watched this film for the first time, and I'm sitting there watching a conman with an obviously faked physical defect telling a tale to get him out of jail. I was absolutely shocked that the final pay off was confirmation of something I knew from the start. I'm usually pretty slow to understand twists. I think this whole idea not being a twist at all must have helped my recognition.

[–] Stratego 8 years ago

I'm sitting there watching a conman with an obviously faked physical defect telling a tale to get him out of jail. I was absolutely shocked that the final pay off was confirmation of something I knew from the start.

Well, the final pay off was actually the twist that the whole story you just saw could be a complete lie and that Verbal may be the boogeyman himself. That Verbal is hiding something is not really a revelation, that's made clear the moment Kujan shows up.

[–] SausagePourVous 8 years ago

But it all turns out to be a un game Verbal/Soze played with Kujan so how can you take a pathological liars word for it,that Saul Berg was even mentioned?? Defeats the purpose of it all bing a manipulative account of events.

The poolhall scene is shown to us through the lens of cinemas most unreliable narrator(close to anyhow)who was a clever bullshi--er who liked the game and knew you sell a big lie most effectively by staying somewhat close to the truth. In other words,it's likely it played out like that...or maybe for kicks,that scene is where Verbal revealed who he was.

In flashback,Fenster was the only one who believed in Sozes existence. He suffers the same fate as the others but without doing Sozes dirtywork. Even if Verbal said he was Soze, Fenster would´ve made the same move.... Which is why I think Verbal refers to him as"A smart man." In the end,there's nothing to figure out but I believe the lawyer approached them in an hotel pool hall.

I feel the first scene is unneccessary and a big giveaway. The scene is established as reality and although we don't see bullets hit him,we get that Keaton's a goner,no matter how mythical McQuarrie try to make him,we remember the opening so it feels like a moot point. Very counterproductive storytelling in that regard. Keaton comes across as schizophrenic.

The BIGGEST,most annoying giveaway is Verbal breaking down in very fake tears at the end, saying it was ALL Keatons plan and they all followed him,turning all of his narration even before the big reveal into a guessing-game and making all we seen mean zero.Hmmm....I love the film but it has some huge, annoying flaws.

[–] kipcarson37 8 years ago

Well, there's lots of dialogue that gives away the twist if you're really paying attention. In the first scene, Gabriel Byrne says something about not being able to feel his LEGS, a reference to Kint's physical issues, which were a lie.

ALSO, the whole movie is told (almost) exclusively by Verbal, who is making up whatever he wants. NOTHING in this flick really matters, so have fun trying to find all the hints!

https://youtu.be/tZ4Qb6ndTqk That link has my video review of the movie if you're interested, where I talk about the twist a bit.

[–] curemad_jelly_tot 8 years ago

Not really... Redfoot was connected to their involvement with KS so why wouldn't he be able to film/watch the heist? I mean, assuming hypothetically that he wasn't already up close and personal in the form of King.

[–] curemad_jelly_tot 8 years ago

I'd also like to reiterate that no part of Verbal's story can be a plot hole as we know it could be BS. You can pick apart the stuff in the police station though.

[–] gottaluvafriend 8 years ago

Good point, however don't forget that parts of Verbal's story are fictitious, made up on the fly. For instance, though the person known as Kobayashi exists in reality, Kobayashi is fictitious. For all we know he's Soze's chauffeur. Verbal creates a myth in Kujan's office, making sure to present Keyser Soze completely and believably mysterious, god-like, omniscient, omnipresent.