MovieChat Forums > Dead Man Walking (1996) Discussion > The death penalty is a tool to keep POOR...

The death penalty is a tool to keep POOR people down...

posted 11 years ago by al666940-3
5 replies | jump to latest

In practice, not in theory obviously.

FACTS (for the US at least):
- There are no rich criminals on death row.
- Innocent people (or at least exonerated people) seem to get it awfully frequently in the USA, especially if they're minorities.
- Blacks tend to get it at much higher rates than whites for the same crimes.
- Executing people tends to be even more expensive than housing them for life.
- There's no established correlation between its implementation and crime deterrence/reduction. In facts, countries with the lowest crime rates have no death penalty.
- Crimes that supporters use to push for its use (serial killings, violent rapes) are in reality uncommon and even rare when placed in stats alongside the other crimes, but very well advertised by tv networks and politicians to keep people scared and supportive of tough on crime measures such as the death penalty.

How's that so far?

And as for the moral arguments:
- Most people who quote the Bible (OT in particular) to justify it happen to identify themselves as Christians yet seem to miss the NT and pretty much all of Jesus' teachings, for apparently "love thy enemy", "turn the other cheek" and "pray for those who torment you" seem to be inconveniences to rationalize away. I don't mind a Jew basing such opinion on the Tanakh (it's THEIR holy scripture after all), but a Christian who is supposed to follow Christ?
- It's one thing to kill in wartime, police activity and self defense. It's quite another when there's no such immediate threat.
- Equating long prison sentences to execution to argue away the point of what about innocent people being executed is absurd. No matter how much time lost in jail, as long as that person is still alive they can be compensated somewhat (at the very least acknowledgement the damage done goes a long way to restore their honor and dignity). But once they are dead, nothing can be done for them anymore.
- The USA seems to have a very wide vengeful streak in its psyche, not exactly compatible with it's supposely Christian foundation. they just don't seem to get the fact that the more harsh you punish criminals the more vicious they will get (torture was widely used all over the Medieval ages and even Modern age, yet that didn't stem the crime waves one bit, why should they do it now?).

[–] liscarkat-2 10 years ago

Much of what you have listed under the heading FACTS is incorrect. As for poor and black criminals getting executed more frequently than wealthy and white criminals, the solution isn't to stop executing poor and black criminals. The solution is to start executing more wealthy and white criminals. Some people commit such horrible acts that they forfeit their right to continue to live. Removing them makes the world a better, safer place. The murdering of an innocent person by a criminal, and the execution of that criminal to remove him from the world he no longer deserves to inhabit, are equal only in the minds of those who cannot reason.

[–] bpollen 10 years ago

Nonsense.

1. You don't become rich by murdering people. The reason no rich people are on death row is that almost no rich people murder people. In fact, most poor people who murder people are NOT given the death penalty.

2. There are more blacks on death row because more blacks are convicted of murder than any other race.

3. The expense of execution isn't the issue.

4. The death penalty isn't implemented as a deterrent to murder. It's punishment or justice.

5. Rapists aren't given the death penalty, with the possible exception of rape of a child. Even then, I know of no one given the death penalty for something other than murder.

As for your moral points:
The Bible has no place in a discussion of the death penalty, which is a civil penalty.

As for immediate threat, the death penalty's purpose is not primarily for protection of society (although that's a valid secondary purpose). It is a penalty, a punishment, justice for a crime so heinous that our system determined that life without parole was not enough.

As for vengeance, that's not waht the death penalty is about. Again, it's justice for a heinous crime. It's punishment. Christian arguments have no place in this, since it is a civil penalty by a government on behalf of the citizens and victims.

You may not have the death penalty in your country. But you don't live here. Ours is a huge country filled with firearms and lots of wackos and degenerates who murder people every day. In fact, the #1 cause of death of pregnant women here is HOMICIDE. We have had a lot of serial killers, a lot of child abusers. Thousands of women are killed or beaten up every day.

We will have a different system of handling violent criminals than a small country without the high rate of murder that we have. It is ignorant of you to be critical, when you don't know the facts.

[–] dalldorfw 10 years ago

"It is ignorant of you to be critical, when you don't know the facts."

The op hasn't responded so I'll say it on his/her behalf; what's ignorant are these weak and sometimes non-existent arguments...

1. "You don't become rich by murdering people. The reason no rich people are on death row is that almost no rich people murder people. In fact, most poor people who murder people are NOT given the death penalty."

Well, there are people that get rich off of death (business ventures like war and even the subject of this post have made certain people quite profitable), but I don't want to get into an argument on whether or not that constitutes "murder" so I'll get my next point; could another reason be that the rich are able to afford better lawyers or bribe their way out if they do commit a capital crime? The Nestle corporation has knowingly killed babies in third-world countries to make money and the heads of that company haven't been punished at all to my knowledge. And if most poor people aren't given the death penalty either, who's taking up the space on death row?

2. "There are more blacks on death row because more blacks are convicted of murder than any other race."

Yeah, I don't see how that refutes the op's argument. If anything it kinda supports it.

3. "The expense of execution isn't the issue."

But isn't that always the issue when someone brings up the idea that a life-sentence as an alternative to the dp? I guess it stops being the issue once the facts aren't in your favor.

4. "The death penalty isn't implemented as a deterrent to murder. It's punishment or justice."

If justice doesn't actually do anything, what good is it?

5. "Rapists aren't given the death penalty, with the possible exception of rape of a child. Even then, I know of no one given the death penalty for something other than murder."

I have nothing to add here so I'll more on.

"The Bible has no place in a discussion of the death penalty, which is a civil penalty."

Hey, I agree with that! Too damn often people will use religion as a crutch when they can't come up with an argument based in the real world and...oh, don't get me started.

"As for immediate threat, the death penalty's purpose is not primarily for protection of society (although that's a valid secondary purpose). It is a penalty, a punishment, justice for a crime so heinous that our system determined that life without parole was not enough."

Justice again. What is this vague concept and what practical purpose does it serve.

"As for vengeance, that's not waht the death penalty is about. Again, it's justice for a heinous crime. It's punishment. Christian arguments have no place in this, since it is a civil penalty by a government on behalf of the citizens and victims."

If punishment has no real practical use and is only used to satisfy an emotional need for retribution then I do believe that would qualify as vengeance. That is, unless you can come up with a concrete definition for "justice" and tell me exactly what it's supposed to do.

"You may not have the death penalty in your country. But you don't live here. Ours is a huge country filled with firearms and lots of wackos and degenerates who murder people every day."

The op might be from Australia where they now have stricter gun laws (far be it for me to hint at anything though).

[–] rjmhhk 9 years ago

and many of the blacks on death row were victims of racism or having *beep* attorneys. That they were convicted doesn't make them guilty. Also historically the death penalty DOESN'T work as a deterrent. The only countries that use it as much as we do are china iran saudi arabia. Great company

[–] Juliesef 9 years ago

I've thought about this a lot and I think the killer(s) should be executed in the same way they killed their victims! Remember Susan Smith who put her two young sons in their car seats and let them drown in a lake? I think her punishment should have been the same thing that she did to them. Strap her in a seat and push her into a lake. Sometimes the death penalty is a too easy way to die. Let the killers suffer like their victims did. Or take them outside right away and shoot them in the head. The government wastes too much money taking care of these monsters. Just my opinion.