The End of General Chat: One More Final - I Need You - Shinseiki Evangelion (1997) Discussion

[–] kuribo4 8 years ago

I actually felt some feely feels Rax. Well played.

Would you have interest in this Rax?

https://mondotees.com/products/death-stranding-low-roar-ill-keep-coming-12-single

I bought one. I love Low Roar and that artwork.
I...don't own a vinyl player though.

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

Haha, I don't collect vinyl records but I did buy "Easy Way Out" off of iTunes.

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] kuribo4 8 years ago

I don't collect vinyls either lol.
In this case I just need it for how it looks.

I am kind of known at this point by people around me for having a "problem" with insta-buying. :P

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[–] kuribo4 8 years ago

@Jimbo: http://egforum.cassland.org/thread/159/Shinji-is-a-XTC-fan/

Don't know if you remember I once asked about that scene in Hanlet between him and Ophelia.
Well, I stopped reading Hamlet even though I really enjoyed it. Just had tons of things to do. I will definitely puck it up again. I have also purchased many other Shakespeare works from the same collection (with the terminology explained at the bottom of each page).

Right now I'm reading Goethe's Werther.

@Rax: Don't worry, it's not really bad now.
I have actually dealt with this for four years approximately, since I was 16 (which is when I joined this board).
I am mostly a positive person, so I deal with it, and having watched Evangelion the year before really helped.
I have gone to seek professional help, but I think it's not my thing. Like it is artificial or something. And it didn't amount to anything.
2014 and the first half of 2016 were really horrible for me, but I have also learned a lot during these periods.
So I think I'm mostly fine as long nothing too major and negative happens around me.
In general I'm just really moody. I have no friends here (not because people don't like me, I'm just stressed by anybody who isn't a close friend from before), Germany receives no sunshine during most of the year and I'm kind of unsure about my future.
But I have also been a lot worse, and I'm proud that I improved.

Changing the subject to something less depressing'
Which Beatles song did you say is secretly about basement dwellers?
You made that joke a lot of time ago,before I was into the Beatles.

Yeah, I'll gladly take recommendations for documentaries.
I just know about Ron Howard's Eight Days a Week.
Abd what is up with A Hard Day's Night?
I checked it out and didn't get what it was going for. I haven't watched the entire thing, but, what is it? Lol

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

Like it is artificial or something. And it didn't amount to anything.

I've had friends who had to go through multiple different therapists before they found someone who worked for them. If things get bad again and you need to see someone, don't get discouraged if the first person you find doesn't work.

Similarly, I know that some of the medication out there for depression can take a while to really kick in. IIRC its something like a month before any change happens for some of them, but don't quote me on that. It can be easy to become discouraged but you can't give in.

In general I'm just really moody. I have no friends here (not because people don't like me, I'm just stressed by anybody who isn't a close friend from before), Germany receives no sunshine during most of the year and I'm kind of unsure about my future.

It can be hard to meet or deal with new people, but you kind of have to force yourself sometimes. It can be stressful, but I think you owe it yourself to keep trying.

If its raining outside use an umbrella. I think its natural to be unsure of the future- unfortunately there's no real specific advice I can give you.

But I have also been a lot worse, and I'm proud that I improved.

I'm proud of you too. Keep on keepin' on. :)

Which Beatles song did you say is secretly about basement dwellers?

"Nowhere Man". Lennon supposedly had himself in mind when he wrote it, which is interesting.

Yeah, I'll gladly take recommendations for documentaries.

The Beatles Anthology is the main one to take a look at. It's eight parts long and broadly goes over the band's history.

If you're into cinema verite stuff Let It Be is worth a shot if you can find it online (No home release that I'm aware of. It's all kind of copies of copies of copies of VHS recordings at the moment). It's yet to be properly restored for reasons I'm not sure of, but what was meant to be a mere making of about the album of the same name turned into watching the band fall apart onscreen. Interestingly, it was directed by Michael-Lindsay Hogg- one of the illegitimate children of Orson Welles. The famous "rooftop concert" was shot for this film if I remember right.

The U.S. vs. John Lennon is a really good look at Lennon's post-Beatles career .

The Making of Sgt. Pepper's is fun look at the making of that album. Has some good bits of George Martin talking about his own process.

John Lennon's Jukebox is a kind of fun look at some music he liked.

Haven't seen the Ron Howard movie yet but I have a copy. I know Martin Scorsese did a documentary about George Harrison called Living in the Material World, but I haven't sat down to watch that yet since its like a million hours long.

Abd what is up with A Hard Day's Night?

Its an offbeat comedy about what life was like for the band at the height of their teen hearthrob years. I think its funny, and really well shot. The Criterion blu is amazing looking.

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] kuribo4 8 years ago

If things get bad again and you need to see someone, don't get discouraged if the first person you find doesn't work.

Yeah, if it got really bad I would seek help.
It was also a pretty big step for me starting to talk about these things, so it isn't like I am afraid of that aspect of it. Maybe it's the embarassment of talking to a stranger about it which I'm afraid of.
When I was 16 I didn't talk at all about these things, and that is horrible. I think these type of things should actually be taught and normalized at school. Otherwise you think you are strange/crazy.
In my case, I just stopped going to school for awhile at 16. I cried non-stop and felt I was a failure for not getting good marks anymore (I was always at the top of the class before that), which was caused by me feeling worse before for other reasons, it was like a vicious cycle.
Anyways, I didn't even respond to phone calls, and was isolated for about two months. This is why I feel these things should be explained to us as children, so we don't feel like we have to hide something.

Unfortunately it was worse at 18, when we had to move to Germany. At this point I had talked to my friends about how I felt, but I still ended up doing the same, this time for half a year. The main reason this time (I don't think any of my friends visit this site) was that I had fallen in love with a girl in Spain for the first time, a very nice person I trusted a lot, but she ended up together with one of my best friends. Obviously none of them knew. But after awhile it got hard talking to them via things like WhatsApp, plus I wanted to be left alone in general.
However this time it actually helped me. During this time of isolation I just did things I had fun with, and I kind of came back to reality again. Before that I was having the strangest thoughts.

Later I found out how worried some of my friends were during this time, so I will try not do that anymore lol
But at the time it didn't occur to me that they would worry.

It got better after that, until 2016 started, the dreaded year. I won't elaborate on this year because it's all pretty recent, but it is scary how many bad things came together at the same time, most of them out of my control.
I have never thought about suicide, and I really doubt I ever will, but this was the first time I thought I would rather not be alive, and now it is scary and crazy to me that I thought that.

All of this sounds very dramatic I suppose, but I'm really feeling better now. So no need to worry.

But now you know how I tick. I am probably too sensitive for some things which are just part of life.

As for meeting people, it is really tiring for me. I have social phobia, and even though I have improved thanks to the vocationary training I'm doing (working at an office) it can be hard, and sometimes I prefer just being by myself. The good thing is I have developed a good relationship with my younger brother now.

The rain has never bothered me lol. I actually fall asleep to rain sound videos every night.
But the lack of light is really bad. At least when you are aware of how it affects you, you can see if for what it is.

I'm proud of you too. Keep on keepin' on. :)

I really appreciate that. Thank you! 

The Sgt Pepper making of sounds very interesting, probably my favourite album of theirs.

I knew about Let it be, but not that you see the band falling apart. Could that be the reason they don't restore it?

I'll check out Hard Day's Night again. Do you know how much input they had themselves in things like script or direction?

Regarding Nowhere Man, that doesn't surprise me too much. Lennon seemed like the type of guy who loves talking about themselves.

"I'm a loser, and I'm not what I appear to be
Although I laugh and I act like a clown
Beneath this mask I am wearing s frown"

I'm 100% sure that was about him too, not just an imagined character different from himself.

How do you feel about their post-Beatles stuff? From what I have listened to (which is a lot by now) I really love Plastic Ono Band and Ram (apparently many people would disagree on the second one).

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

This is why I feel these things should be explained to us as children, so we don't feel like we have to hide something.

I know in America at least we're utterly terrible about teaching health related things in general, to say nothing of stuff like depression that can be hard for even educated people to empathize with.

It's good to have friends looking out for you. Good luck with the vocational training- I'm sure it will continue to help you.

I am probably too sensitive for some things which are just part of life.

Nothing wrong with sensitivity despite what some might say, but same with anything else you just can't be consumed by it.

But the lack of light is really bad. At least when you are aware of how it affects you, you can see if for what it is.

Ah, well that makes more sense then. Not much I can say to help you there, but yeah if that's something that bothers you I'd imagine at least being aware of it helps some.

I've never had much an opinion on cloudy days. I've always liked the rain though, particularly when I lived in the city and could play noirish music as I walked around downtown at night among unsavory characters.

These days I almost never leave my house.

The Sgt Pepper making of sounds very interesting, probably my favourite album of theirs.

It seems that it is online- http://www.beatlesonfilm.rocks/documentaries_3.html. Not the best quality video I'm afraid.

I knew about Let it be, but not that you see the band falling apart. Could that be the reason they don't restore it?

It might be, though I don't know for sure. I'm sure we'll see a proper restoration at some point, though it might not be until after McCartney and Ringo pass away.

Do you know how much input they had themselves in things like script or direction?

Not off of the top of my head.

How do you feel about their post-Beatles stuff? From what I have listened to (which is a lot by now) I really love Plastic Ono Band and Ram (apparently many people would disagree on the second one).

I haven't heard nearly as much as I should have or want to, but I like what I've heard.

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

@Jimbo: http://egforum.cassland.org/thread/159/Shinji-is-a-XTC-fan/

Very cool. Wish I could remember seeing the TV shirt in the series, though.

Don't know if you remember I once asked about that scene in Hanlet between him and Ophelia.
Well, I stopped reading Hamlet even though I really enjoyed it. Just had tons of things to do. I will definitely puck it up again. I have also purchased many other Shakespeare works from the same collection (with the terminology explained at the bottom of each page).

Right now I'm reading Goethe's Werther.

Hamlet really should be read all the way through in one sitting to get the full effect. Another way to go might be to watch either the Branagh or Jacobi (1980) version since they're uncut (or very close to it). They're about 4-hours long, and while you might miss many of the linguistic nuances it will give you a good idea of "flow" of the play and make it easier to go back and read it.

I've read a lot of Goethe's poetry and Faust but never Werther.

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] kuribo4 8 years ago

Reading it in one go would be a little hard for me haha.
I'll ellaborate tomorrow.

How long is the play actually supposed to take?

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

How long is the play actually supposed to take?

I'm guessing a full run-through would take 3.5-4 hours depending on pacing. The Branagh is 4-hours, Jacobi 3.5. I think the former is uncut (though it's hard to say with different texts of the play out there), and I think the latter is either uncut or very close to it. If the former is longer it's probably because it's more "cinematic" (more wordless scenes/moments).

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] Evangelion217 8 years ago

And again, I don't have a problem with the sex scenes in "BiTE", since they serve the themes and meaning of the film in a brilliant way. But in comparison to how they're done in the comic, it really negates how the story was originally done. So while I admire and understand what Kechiche was going for, it still butchers the comic to a degree by the lack of emotional depth with the sex scenes within the film itself.

Last Films seen:
La La Land(2016)- 8/10
Split(2017)- 8/10

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

Yeah if I remember right the duel at the end of the Branagh version goes on for something like 10 minutes.

I thought it was cool, personally, but I've seen haters criticize it.

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

"Useful" perhaps wasn't the right word for what I was thinking. I think what I meant is that gaze theory and Mulvey, to me, are important more for the conversation they historically started about representations of gender, sex, etc. in film and filmmaking rather than any actual specific claim they made. That's perhaps a little more esoteric than testable science is, but its a conversation that has never seemed to quite be resolved either from what I've seen.

To the extent it started the discussion I would say it was useful; to the extent its limited the discussion to necessarily subjectively biased arguments while engendering (harhar) a religious-like acceptance and insulating itself from testable predictive models I'd say it's outworn its usefulness. Thing is, such ideas should be testable, or at least amenable to rigorous methodological research if nothing else. Instead, what happens is that, more often than not, we get single films (or perhaps a handful) paraded out as examples as what the term means, while counter-examples are either ignored or explained away.

Personally, I think the issue is far more nuanced and complicated than is often presented. First, I think it's a plain fallacy there is A male/female gaze as opposed a spectrum of gazes that appeal to more men or more women but can also appeal to some of both. The easiest way to confirm this is to look at the world of porn because that's a world where the sexual fantasies of both sexes are directly sold to consumers without having any mainstream/censorship concerns. In that world, there is, indeed, plenty of porn that typify the classic male gaze; in the other thread I mentioned one example to mj (Eva217) in BangBros. When we look at porn for women/by women, the major difference between them and the former is more story and more aesthetics aimed more at sensuality as opposed to explicit sexuality. So let's assume that far more men are attracted to the former and far more women to the latter; the simple fact is that there ARE women who buy/watch the former and men who buy/watch the latter. So rather than being a "male gaze" that appeals to all men, it's more like there's A gaze (that's referred to as "the male gaze") that appeals to more men than women, and that appeals to more men than the gaze we might refer to as the female gaze. Exactly what the ratio of that appeal is is something that would require science to study analyze, but it's certainly not 100/0 on either side.

Secondly, when it comes to mainstream films the issue is complicated further by several concerns. There's the consideration that the biggest market is in appealing to both sexes and that more money requires the broadest appeal. There's the rating issue that limits the extent to which sexuality can be exploited. When you combine these things, I think the dominant "gaze" in mainstream film is far more of a hybrid of the above two extremes than is often presented in feminist theory. Because of the desirability of broadest appeal, the majority of mainstream directors are not allowing the unfettered expression of their personal "gaze," but rather a calculated perspective based on market concerns. IE, what's being expressed is not a directorial gaze, but rather what the filmmakers think will appeal to a mass audience's gaze. When it comes to the exceptions, the auteurs that DO express a personal gaze, my impression is that there's actually far less of either the extreme male/female gaze or even the mainstream hybrid gaze precisely because you aren't getting that "calculated towards mainstream tastes" perspective, but rather something more personal, complex, and nuanced.

Third, let's take the case of BitWC specifically. It's clearly not a "porn film" in any traditional sense; the sex scenes do not dominate the runtime, the story is not just a flimsy excuse to get to the sex, it's not made by director of porn with pornstars sold by porn companies in porn markets. It's really, basically, a mainstream art film. Now, the sex scenes are certainly unusual by mainstream art film standards. They do, in a way, are closer to resembling softcore porn (of the "female gaze" variety, mind) than typical mainstream depictions of sex. Now, one explanation of this is the one mj and so many feminists blindly advocated: it's the male gaze, it's director Abdellatif Kechiche expressing his idea of what lesbian sexuality is, and that depiction is more about male lust than lesbian love. The problem with that theory are numerous. It ignores the fact that the "porn" BitWC is most similar to is of the "female gaze" variety. It ignores the fact that the for the vast majority of the film's runtime, there is no typical "male gaze" present AT ALL. In fact, these characters are as individualized and subjectivized as filmmaking gets. It ignores perhaps the central theme of the film: that sexual awakening doesn't guarantee fulfilling personal relationships, and that the latter are FAR more complicated.

Now, my interpretation--which I think FAR better accounts for all the facts of the above--is that Kechiche designed the sex scenes to be "porn-like" not due to his "male gaze" or misunderstanding of what lesbian sex was like in real life, but rather because he wanted to show the contrast between the intoxicating pleasures of physical sex in contrast with the lack of relationship compatibility elsewhere in life. You don't achieve this contrast if the sex scenes are more like mainstream films (more subjectivized and implicit), and you can't shoot them like "male gaze" explictness either, so Kechiche had to go more towards a "female gaze" notion of softcore porn, the kind that was briefly popular in the 70s with films like Emmanuelle and The Story of O. This approach is more explicit and objectivizing than mainstream films, but nowhere close to the explicitly objectifying nature of "male gaze" hardcore porn; but because of its context in a mainstream art-film it still achieves its goal of SEEMING more objectifying in order to create the desired contrast.

Now, I don't know if Kechiche consciously thought all of this, but he would have to be an ignorant idiot not to understand how different his sex scenes were to mainstream films and how close they were to softcore porn. If we're going to assume he's not an idiot, and if we're going to look at the film's themes and ask what possible justification there would be for shooting them like that, I think my interpretation fits perfectly. The notion that Kechiche would've made this long-ass film with these heavily subjectivized characters only to throw it all away for a few minutes of prurient, soft-core porn exploitation seems equally absurd, something only a terrible, incompetent filmmaker would do, and BitWC is not the work of an incompetent filmmaker. So, yeah, I think it's a perfect illustration of where this notion of "male gaze" falls on its face, because it comes from people that don't understand art, filmmaking, eroticism, or even rationality. They just see something that seems to "objectify" female sexuality and they scream "male gaze" before considering anything else. That's when such "art theories" become far closer to a religion than a science, and that's when they mightily frustrate me.

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] dullboy9000 8 years ago

Hey, buddy,

I'll send you a PM today at some point. Just so you know.

Regards.

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

Sure thing. I'll be getting offline pretty soon today, so I probably won't respond until tomorrow (playing catch up after the Super Bowl last night and watching the sports talk shows this morning).

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] dullboy9000 8 years ago

OK. Talk later. Have a good evening.

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[–] kuribo4 8 years ago

No matter what gaze, boobs is life.

I am actually a good example.
I really don't like what most porn does, or what you seem to be defining as male gaze.

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

Truthiness.

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] Evangelion217 8 years ago

Back to your points about "BiTWC", the sex scenes were still done in a pornographic way from the male gaze. Like why would Adele be moaning during a scene, when she's fingering Emma. That wasn't entirely realistic. But you did make a good point about the sex scenes lacking emotion, and only focusing on the passion of sex, while the characters lacked anything else in common with each other.

Last Films seen:
La La Land(2016)- 8/10
Split(2017)- 8/10

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

the sex scenes were still done in a pornographic way from the male gaze.

 I don't know how you can just baldly restate this in response to a huge post that I devoted to dissecting the entire notion. It's as if you either didn't read or didn't understand anything I said.

Like why would Adele be moaning during a scene, when she's fingering Emma. That wasn't entirely realistic.

Again, who said they were going for realism? Who said realism is the standard for anything (including sex) in film?

But in comparison to how they're done in the comic, it really negates how the story was originally done. So while I admire and understand what Kechiche was going for, it still butchers the comic to a degree by the lack of emotional depth with the sex scenes within the film itself.

And again, the comic is not the standard for judging the film. Comics and films are their own things. I'd argue more films fail by being slavish to the source rather than carving their own path from the basic material.

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] Evangelion217 8 years ago

Actually, more films have failed for butchering the source material of a book, rather then trying to be faithful to what made the book great in the first place. And while films should do it's own thing, it doesn't need to negate the characters and emotions of the story, while trying to remake 70's B porn cinema. It comes across as more juvenile than not. And while your interpretation is great, I haven't heard anything from the filmmaker of "BiTWC" to justify that interpretation.

Last Films seen:
La La Land(2016)- 8/10
Split(2017)- 8/10

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

Actually, more films have failed for butchering the source material of a book, rather then trying to be faithful to what made the book great in the first place.

What makes any work of art great rarely has anything to do with plot and characters (the basics of which get recycled ad infinitum), but rather the way in which they're rendered in their medium. The rendering will necessarily change how the content is approached because of the fundamental differences in mediums. Comics fundamentals are atemporal, sequential, still, drawn art typically formed by panels and page; film fundamentals are temporal, sequential, moving, photographic art typically formed by film stock or digital sensor. The difference between atemporal and temporal, between still and moving, between drawn and photographic, between panels and film stock/sensor are HUGE differences, and necessarily change the way in which any content is delivered. The rendering of the content through these changes is far more important than whatever content is rendered. Look at the adaptations of Alan Moore: the adaptations have been pretty darn slavish, yet none of the films have equaled the brilliance of the comics. Why do you think that is? Meanwhile, BitWC is (by critical consensus, at least) a good comic, but not something you hear mentioned in the league of, say, Watchmen or Maus; yet the film is one of the most critically lauded of this century.

And while films should do it's own thing, it doesn't need to negate the characters and emotions of the story, while trying to remake 70's B porn cinema. It comes across as more juvenile than not. And while your interpretation is great, I haven't heard anything from the filmmaker of "BiTWC" to justify that interpretation.

Dude, if you're trying to remake 70s erotica cinema (not porn; there's a huge gap between the softcore of Emmanuelle and the hardcore of Deep Throat) then you don't make a 3-hour film where the sex occupies about 8% of the screen time. Coupled with this asinine notion is that deeply ingrained Puritanical belief that somehow all erotica is "juvenile" and of somehow less value than other genres of art. Never mind that there's zero justification for this. The only difference between erotica, action films, and musicals is what the story is designed elicit: sex VS action VS music. In fact, there was a famous book written by film academic Linda Williams about the similarities between porn and other genres, noting especially the similarities with musicals where the story exists to keep all the songs/sex from happening at once. Much is true of any genre, and it's only our society's demonizing of sex that somehow porn/erotica is treated as a less worthy genre than any other.

Finally, I'll just say the notion that you need a filmmaker's (or any artist's) approval to "justify an interpretation" is naive. This assumes that artists are always conscious about what they intend, that they're honest about that intention, and that significance (not necessarily "meaning") has anything to do with intention to begin with. I spent years on EvaGeeks fighting against the ludicrous Tsurumaki quote that the religious symbolism in NGE was only there to "look cool" and that they had "no meaning." When I analyzed precisely the meaning and purpose they served in the series beyond the visual aesthetics, nobody ever rebutted it; yet the whole myth of the "meaningless religious symbolism" persisted. Artists are not dictators of meaning in any case. They can define what they intended (if they know it all), but not what they created. Kechiche's only comments about the sex scenes is that he wanted to shoot what he found beautiful, like classical figure studies. However, this "intent" does not negate the differences in cinematic language used in those scenes contrasted with that used elsewhere and the implied significance that difference entails. So the interpretation stands on its own merit in light of the evidence regardless of what Kechiche intended.

And the problem with how the sex scenes are portrayed in "BiTWC", is that it's just designed to get mens rocks off.

No, that's what porn is designed for. BitWC isn't porn.

That's not how it was done in the comic.

Doesn't matter.

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] Evangelion217 8 years ago

You make some good points about "BiTE" being a very long portrayal of 70's erotica. Except the acting, filmmaking, and aesthetics are top notch for that genre. But how the lesbian sex is portrayed is juvenile and designed to just give people an orgasm. Which isn't wrong per se, but it neglects the emotion and meaning from the comic book itself.

And if you can't back up your interpretation with what the filmmaker says in ant interview, then it's just an interpretation. I don't care what you say or think, because I'm only going to listen to what the artists say. And if Hideaki Anno says that the religious symbolism in NGE has no meaning, and that it was just there for cool aesthetic purposes, then that's what it is. To say otherwise, is to be completely moronic.

And I never said "BiTWC" is porn. But the sex scenes are done in a pornographic way. Therefore, it's designed for people to masturbate too.

Last Films seen:
La La Land(2016)- 8/10
Split(2017)- 8/10

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

I feel like you're just ignoring every point I make. I'll enumerate this time:

1. Nobody makes a 3-hour relationship drama so that 10-minutes of softcore sex will give people an orgasm, especially in an age of internet-porn-on-demand. That's asinine.

2. The only way to consider the softcore sex "juvenile" is to consider all erotica "juvenile," and doing that is what's REALLY juvenile.

3. The film has no responsibility to be faithful to the comic, much less any given element. The comic does not set the standard for judging the film.

4. I never said it was anything BUT an interpretation, but it's an interpretation that fits the facts better than "LOLMALEGAZE."

5. What's "being moronic" is assuming that artists are the sole arbiters of meaning when it comes their work. They are not. The religious symbolism is demonstrably not meaningless so it doesn't matter what Anno or anyone else says on the matter. If Anno said Asuka's uniform was green, would you believe that too?

6. The sex scenes are not porn, they're erotica. Even if they were porn, that doesn't mean they were designed to masturbate to. See point 1.

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] Evangelion217 8 years ago

1. Even though the sex scenes were soft core porn to get peoples rocks off. Whether it was the intention for the story itself, or just done for shock value is anyone's guess at this point.

2. That's a fair point. But compare to comic, the sex scenes in the film come across as juvenile. Or just a typical man wanting to see women finger each other, while moaning at the same time. It's no wonder that the actresses felt uncomfortable, since they filmed those scenes over the course of 10 days.

3. As a purist, the film does have some responsibility to staying faithful to it's source material. Nothing extreme like Zack Snyder, but he has no real talent to begin with.

4. Still an interpretation.

5. Yes, the artists are the sole arbiters of their work. And the religious symbolism in Evangelion has no meaning. Otherwise, you're just being moronic.

6.That's a good way to put it.

Last Films seen:
La La Land(2016)- 8/10
Split(2017)- 8/10

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

I was going to respond, but I think this:  sums up all my would-be responses. You've just gone into "restate previous assertions" mode.

And the religious symbolism in Evangelion has no meaning.

Right, so the fact that the cross in Christianity symbolizes sacrifice, death, and rebirth has absolutely no pertinent parallels to Evangelion; the concept of Genesis being a perfect oneness with God, which is followed by a temptation for knowledge, a fall, and then living in a harsh world separated from God has no pertinent parallels to Evangelion. You think these were just chosen at complete random. Sure. I'd link you to the various analyses I wrote on EvaGeeks, but I feel like you'll just ignore them and repeat yourself that they have no meaning because Tsurumaki said so, which means if Anno says Asuka's uniform is green then by-golly it's green.

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] Evangelion217 8 years ago

Yes, they were just chosen randomly because they looked cool. "Evangelion" has a ton of depth, meaning, and themes. But the religious and Christian symbolism was picked for cook aesthetic reasons. That's what Anno said. If you disagree, then you're just looking too deep into it.

Last Films seen:
La La Land(2016)- 8/10
Split(2017)- 8/10

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

they were just chosen randomly because they looked cool.

Right. Remind me again: How does Genesis look? How does the Fruit of Life/Knowledge look? I'm having trouble remembering them being visually depicted in the series.

That's what Anno said.

That's what Tsurumaki said, not Anno. I've asked this three times and you've ignored it: if Anno said Asuka's uniform was green, would you agree it was green?

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

How does Genesis look?[...]I'm having trouble remembering them being visually depicted in the series.

I'm both surprised and disappointed in you Jimbo, as Genesis is in fact visually depicted in the anime.

This is what Genesis looks like: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Sega-Genesis-Mk2-6button.jpg.

This is how it is shown in the anime: http://smg.photobucket.com/user/AnimeDude360/media/LJ_Spotlights/EVAsegasat2.jpg.html.

Try harder, beatch.

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago



Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] Evangelion217 8 years ago

That's a silly question, because Anno would never say that. But Anno did say that the religious imagery was just there for aesthetic reasons. And the creator gets the last word, not some fanboy on the internet.

Last Films seen:
La La Land(2016)- 8/10
Split(2017)- 8/10

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

Anno would never say that.

One purpose of thought experiments is to highlight deficiencies in a given argumentation. So what's your answer?

Anno did say that the religious imagery was just there for aesthetic reasons.

Anno DID NOT say that; Tsurumaki did. What Anno has said, repeatedly, is basically summed up by: "Evangelion is like a puzzle, you know. Any person can see it and give his/her own answer. In other words, we’re offering viewers to think by themselves, so that each person can imagine his/her own world. We will never offer the answers..."

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

Without having seen BitWC I think I agree with most of this- I'm not opposed to making things more nuanced of course and IIRC a form of that was even one of the original criticisms of Visual Pleasure in Narrative Cinema when it was first written, that it didn't consider how lesbians would view "objectified" women in narrative film. I've been told by certain advocates that women that enjoy that kind of content though have merely "internalized patriarchal values"- I've never been quite sure what is meant by this, and its always seemed a bit dismissive of women who disagree with them to me.

The thing about the dominant in mainstream film actually be a hybrid gaze is super interesting.

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

I've been told by certain advocates that women that enjoy that kind of content though have merely "internalized patriarchal values"- I've never been quite sure what is meant by this, and its always seemed a bit dismissive of women who disagree with them to me.

And this is one of the things that bugs the crap out of me about modern "theory" approach to the arts: how it insulates itself from criticism with these circular arguments that makes them unfalsifiable. I also just tend to think that top-down theories (in general) are... if not "wrong," then at least incomplete ways of viewing anything. Biology precedes society, and if it precedes it it is certainly able of subverting its norms (this is my way of saying that perhaps SOME women would've "internalized patriarchal values," but surely not all of them).

It occurs to me that perhaps an even better area for studying this than porn films would be comics. I was really into erotic comics many years ago. The degree of "objectification" was pretty similar when it came depicting both sexes from both male and female authors (and there were several female authors: One lesbian I know in Colleen Coover); but the degree of "subjectifying" seemed to vacillate wildly depending far more on the quality of the author involved rather than the author's gender. The good authors--and I think of names like Bill Willingham, Gilbert Hernandez*, Coover, Kate Worley**, Phil Foglio--were able to create characters with rich personalities regardless of how much they reveled in their characters as sexual objects as well.

So I wonder how much of the "objectifying gaze" problem comes less from the gaze itself as opposed to the presence of poor writing that would bring the subjectivity along with it. Like in real life there should be parts in art where we appreciate objective, physical beauty and others where we focus on subjective, mental characteristics. That media like commercials, ads, etc. tends to "sell" the objectifying physical aspect is not surprising given that such things are meant to make an immediate and unconscious impact (and it obviously works for women as well, or else how else to explain the popularity of Fabio and his shirtless romance novel appearances?), but it's certainly more disturbing when it's not alleviated in art that is narrative in nature. I'm open to the idea that this does happen more against women (ie, more objectifying/less subjectivizing) than men, but I still think the entire subject is more robust and nuanced than how it is typically presented.

*Gilbert Hernandez, who co-wrote the massively popular Love & Rockets series, also wrote the comparatively little-known (but excellent) erotic comic Birdland set in the Love & Rockets universe. It's about as imaginative--and hilarious, and insanely surreal--as erotica gets.

**Omaha the Cat Dancer is a fascinating case in itself, being written by a woman in Kate Worley and drawn by a man in Reed Waller. It really was the perfect balance of both sensibilities, and good enough that Neil Gaiman wrote the intro to the first collected volume (reposted on his blog after Kate's death): http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2004/06/remembering-kate.asp

P.S. These can both be read online for free for anyone who cares to. I swear they're actually good. Birdland is also quite short. Readable within an hour.

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] Evangelion217 8 years ago

And the problem with how the sex scenes are portrayed in "BiTWC", is that it's just designed to get mens rocks off. That's not how it was done in the comic.

Last Films seen:
La La Land(2016)- 8/10
Split(2017)- 8/10

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

Tonight I was listening to music, in darkness, with headphones, as I often do when I want something more intimate. I've been listening to a lot of new stuff (for me) recently, but I decided to revisit Radiohead, a band I hadn't listened to in years. Put on the Deluxe Edition of Hail to the Thief, with the bonus disc of EP and B-side cuts. Gagging Order comes on, and suddenly I find myself tearing up, getting really nostalgic thinking about all my time and years spent on IMDb, all the people I've met, all the discussions had. It really does feel like the end of an era. I don't even think the lyrics are particularly relevant, but the whole "Move along, there's nothing left to see" part really got to me for some reason. It just seems to perfectly encapsulate my entire feelings about my time here and how I feel now that it's over.

Only version I could find online, but thankfully it's pretty good (just ignore the annoying crowd): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfwA9WT--S0

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

It must feel that way when you've been here nearly a decade...

I suppose it hasn't hit me the same way since I spent most of my time here in these threads anyways, and we've all been talking about moving elsewhere.

One door closes, another one opens. I wonder which door will be the one that opens, though.

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

I wonder which door will be the one that opens, though.

Right now the options seem to be:

-Reddit
-IMDb 2: http://imdb2.freeforums.net/
-Either of the two private RFAS boards.

In terms of maintaining what we have here, the last option might be ideal. They're both small, intimate communities that, right now, are pretty dead as far as active members go; but they might liven up after IMDb finally closes. IMDb 2 obviously won't have the individual film forums, so there it'd be about finding a new place to set up shop. If you want to do the last option, I'll have to send all the General Chat regs a PM with links to the forums, and alert the admins over there of the invites.

EDIT: I should also mention that one of the private RFAS is coincidentally run by an NGE fan named Gendo.

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

Have you had a chance to check out these private forums? If so, how do they seem?

EDIT: As far as the active members there go, I mean.

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

Yes, I'm on both of them. One I was on back in 2013 when the DT troll was getting everyone's account wiped on RFS, so several members migrated there to ride the storm out. I was there enough to rack up over 400 posts before the board was shut down and everyone migrated back over to RFS. It's just been reopened because of the IMDb shut-down. The only problem with it is that it doesn't have many sub-forums (currently), not even a film one, but I'm sure that can be remedied. The other is newer and one I'd never registered for. More sub-forums, been slightly more active recently. They're both of the more typical "flat" message board variety (like EvaGeeks).

I'll just send you links to both and you can check them out.

Edit RE Your Edit: Hard to tell right now because the IMDb shut-down hasn't happened. Neither are active yet.

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] the_only_gendo 8 years ago

Gendo here, we're much smaller than IMDB in terms of membership and activity; though I'm hoping we get at least a few more from the IMDB shutdown. Our members are pretty much all former IMDB members who wanted to get away from the trolls a few years ago.

We do talk movies pretty frequently; Evangelion discussion would always be welcome. I'd even make an Evangelion sub-forum if there's plenty of discussion.

http://pittersplace.com

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

I've had a look at your forum. Seems nice, and looks like something that could continue to be developed into the future.

I'm very confused about what a Pitter is supposed to be though.

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] the_only_gendo 8 years ago

So way back around 2004, the Passion of the Christ message board became a hotbed for religious debate and discussion, and became known as "The Passion Pit". Those who hung out there became known as "Pitters". Eventually they were migrated to the IMDB religion board; and I originally created that forum as a place for them to get away from the trolls on IMDB.

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[–] Evangelion217 8 years ago

Name me one interview where George Lucas said the Jedi religion sucks.

Last Films seen:
La La Land(2016)- 8/10
Split(2017)- 8/10

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

Was I not clear when I said I wasn't taking your bait?

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] Evangelion217 8 years ago

Still waiting on your evidence, prequel lover.

Last Films seen:
La La Land(2016)- 8/10
Split(2017)- 8/10

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

Exclusive interview with George Lucas, just for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ.

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] Evangelion217 8 years ago

You're a coward. 

Last Films seen:
La La Land(2016)- 8/10
Split(2017)- 8/10

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

Believe that if you'd like. Maybe one day you'll understand why I no longer see any value in bothering to engage you.

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

Have you had a chance to check out these private forums? If so, how do they seem?

EDIT: As far as the active members there go, I mean.

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] kuribo4 8 years ago

The German press really likes Trump.

http://www.dw.com/image/37407316_303.jpg

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

Ha! It seems accurate to me. "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" is basically the antithesis of what Trump represents.

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

How are we going on the archiving of 0080 front, Rax?

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

Pretty sure the html backups can be accessed offline at the very least (So worst comes to worst 0080 will be in 13 separate parts), though I haven't quite found a way to combine them yet. Got a bit distracted for the last day and a half or so though, so I'm still looking.

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

Don't want to rush you, but with all the "d'oh" messages it's possible IMDb might breakdown on its own before the 20th.

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

I'm trying. :(

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

I found something that should work.

It's not going to be pretty, and will in fact be quite ugly, but it should get the job done.

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

BTW, I made my own attempt at archiving it: http://www.filedropper.com/otgeneralchat0080-warinthepocket-imdb It didn't quite get the right "look," but it'll work for now.

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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[–] Raxivace 8 years ago

Ah did you not get the PM I sent you at Pitters yesterday? Probably should have sent it from here instead...

I appreciate that though, though mine ended up looking about the same.

"[Cinema] is a labyrinth with a treacherous resemblance to reality." - Andrew Sarris

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[–] Eva_Yojimbo 8 years ago

If I did I didn't get an email notification of it. *checks* Yeah, I see it now. I'll go ahead and download it and see if there's much (if any) difference between them. Probably not.

Rabbit: It's rare that stupid doesn't bring douchedom with it.

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