They had such a book in their hands, they could make a miracle out of it! And insted - nothing! Not even close to the original plot, not even close to the atmosphere of ''a parallel world''that could be ... What a waste ...
Anyone else ever thought it this way ???
Not really, it was a TV movie so not much cash to blow. The sense of the story was there, the ghastly 1960's hair do's, the unexpected 'real' history mixed in with the might have been - Der Beatles anyone? Also I rather like Rutger Hauer so I'm a bit biased.
Marlon the Cat 1991-17th October 2005
Why would the Beatles be around, if there is going to be Nazi propaganda blanking everything out?
In the film there's a 'liberalisation' to suck up to the Americans.
Marlon the Cat 1991-17th October 2005
I think the Third Reich in the 1960s is so much like Communist China today, it's almost sickening.
In the book they mentioned the Beatles...Well, not by name, but here's the quote:
"A piece by the music critic attacking the 'pernicious, Negroid wailings' of a young group of Englishmen from Liverpool"
That was from March was reading the newspaper.
Really guys, don't be so quick to rip apart the movie. XD
Also, in Zürich when March listens to the radio in the taxi, "I Want to Hold Your Hand" is on.
"A voice from behind me reminds me. Spread out your wings you are an angel."
I think the Third Reich in the 1960s is so much like Communist China today, it's almost sickening.
The Third Reich did not exist in the 1960s.
Anyone who saw ''V'' for vendetta would agree with me, I believe, that was the way to make ''Fatherland'' a film !!!
Of course the Third Reich didn't exist in the 1960's, but the book and film are set in an alternate backdrop of the Third Reich winning the war.
Did you not read the review or do you not know anything about what is being discussed here?????????????????
To me, V for Vendetta seems to be a (thickly) veiled critique of contemporary society (the fascism inherent in consumerism anybody...?)
I think there is alot of demonisation of Hitler and the Third Reich because they lost the war. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend them or anything they systematically murdered millions and that is unforgivable, just that I don't see how much different things would really be under the Nazi's or the current regime. The Nazi's would be just as full of incompetent dopes as the current system that our culture would not be overly disrupted. The only real difference I can see is that instead of demonising Jews, we now demonise Muslims. Other than that, peoples lives aren't really that important to those in power. Hence the existence, in Fatherland, of The (Die) Beatles.
I'd just like to say this post is about the fictional world of 'Fatherland' and not the 'real' world we inhabit. Obviously things would be VERY different for the Jewish populace at large.
Fascism inherent in consumerism? That's a very ignorant opinion considering that all fascist movements originated in socialism and a disdain for capitalism, consumerism, other "petty" bourgeois sentiments. If anything, fascism is the glorification of collectivist ideals like nation, class, society, race, and other similiar groups. Let's not forget that the long name of the Nazi party was "The National Socialist German Workers Party," hardly a title that makes the capitalists amongst us quiver in delight. The Nazis were just as anti-capitalist as the communists at the time and Nazi policies would have resulted in the economic failure of Germany in much the same way as communist policies destroyed the USSR.
shareI can see how my post could have been misinterpreted, I apologise for not writing more clearly!
However... you state that Fascism is a glorification of collectivist ideals? Well, to me modern capitalism still trades in common ideals, they are thinly veiled under the myth of 'choice', but it could be argued that most leisure or cultural commodities are simply different aesthetic manifestations of the same essential things; that is, they all serve the same function. Corporate Enterprise has simply replaced the State as the fountainhead of authority. Yes, the state retains a legislative authority, but who can honestly say that it isn't the idea of culture and leisure that defines most Westerners lives?
I mean it does remain to be seen whether Germany under Nazism would have prospered as opposed to Russian socialism, depends on whether they would have defeated the US and replaced them as the dominant social force of the 20th century.
I know I am in great danger of over-simplifying here but whatever the machinations of those in power, it always seems to be the working and lower classes who are shat on the most, and ironically who care the least ABOUT political machinations!
Heaven can wait...
I hate replying to myself but there you go...
In relation to the point made about the existence of Das (or was it Die...?) Beatles... I suppose any healthy top-down government needs to maintain the illusion of some kind of dissent or transgression, however toothless that transgression actually is. The idea that The Beatles changed everything is, to me, ludicrous and one of the biggest lies of the late 20th Century. The optimism of the 60's quickly gave way to the weary cynicism of the 70's for exactly that reason; that short of a military coup, nothing will change until the actual structures of power change.
It was long ago and it was far away and it was so much better than it is today
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Hitler was a vehement anti-capitalist. He believed capitalism (like communism) was a Jewish invention and his hatred for Jews stemmed largely from his belief that Jewish capitalists were responsible for bank-rolling the first world war. It's true that he played down the socialist aspect of the NSDAP, but the Night of Long Knives was a not a response to the socialism of the SA, but an internal power struggle designed to root out the elements of the party whose penchant for violence in the streets threatened popular support of the Nazi party.
Fascist movements are inherently anti-capitalist as they place control of the market in the hands of the state (a la communism). The idea that fascism is inherent in consumerism is not only naive but ridiculous. Consumerism directly contradicts fascist ideology.
Thank you, Black_Gestapo, for bravely engaging these totally ignorant/uneducated/biased forum trogs who seem to want to publicize their utter lack of intellectual ability to the entire world. Your singular voice is refreshing to see amidst the multitude of others that are spewing absurdly inaccurate & biased views of historical events & the political machinations behind them. Your thorough understanding of economic philosophies is appreciated as well!
I fear we Enlightened Ones are very few in number, sadly. I'm astounded by the prevalence of idiocy & stupidity so prevalent in humans today, as evidenced by the dreck posted here. If this is how history & economics is taught & interpreted, I predict any attempt by us Enlightened to illuminate the path of truth for the troglodyte majority will unfortunately be vehemently attacked & berated. While baseless those attacks may be, the intellectual disability of the masses to grasp logic & dimensional thinking illustrates the "fear of the unknown". Add a bit of incendiary verbiage & the ignorants jump aboard the idiot-bandwagon faster & in greater numbers. I've yet to read the rest of this thread, but I surmise your logic is already under seige.
I have given up the battle, exhausted by the fight. For showing the will to keep up the good fight, I commend you immensely, friend. May your bravery & courage to fight the Unenlightened find effect, where mine faltered. Thanks indeed. Luck & Godspeed.
Get over yourself. Seriously.
shareDude, did you even see the movie or read the book? That is what the whole idea of the book is, that there is a 3rd Reich in the 1960's. It's called fiction. It's a "what if" story which asks us: What would it be like today had Hitler not been beaten by the Allies in 1945? Ergo, there would have been a 3rd Reich still in existence and the world would be a different place today.
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Why would the Beatles be around, if there is going to be Nazi propaganda blanking everything out?They were neither Jewish, Black, Gypsies, or homosexuals (or members of any other group that the Nazis wanted to kill-off) - so why wouldn't they be?
They were around because they were in Britain rather than Greater Germany, and they were attacked because they, like so many other modern artists, mnusicians, and writers, were regarded as degenerate. In itself that would be worth a visit to a camp.
shareBlack people served in Hitlers army, they where free to do as they please. It was only Jews, homosexuals, the disabled & gypsies/slavs that where the problem.
sharethey wanna make money
shareYes-they should have stuck to the original plot.
shareOh dear. Yes I'm well aware of that, unfortunately we're discussing the film Fatherland which was set in the 60's. Plus I was referring to the 60's and 70's and authoritarianism generally. Make sure you check what film the message board is for next time, lol.
It was long ago and it was far away and it was so much better than it is today
I have to disagree with you. I would have never even known that there was a book to enjoy if I had not had the opportunity to view the film version first. I know it's a nuissance when films diverge from their original source, but at least they are reaching a wider audience than the book would have been able to do on its own. In the end, you just have to view a film as a 2-hour advertisement for the book :)
sharerobocopperus what a nice way to look at it! thnx)))
Im so sorry I missed all those posts before they vanished - lol!!!
All I saw in 'Fatherland' was a rather farfetched re-imagining of 'Gorky Park'. IMO, the original 'Gorky Park' is much better.
shareAll I saw in 'Fatherland' was a rather farfetched re-imagining of 'Gorky Park'.You surely don't want to compare killing sables with killing Jews...?
I was referring to the story line of a big city homicide detective trying to do his job of investigating a triple murder and hopefully bringing the perp or perps to justice - only he's doing so in the capital city of a totalitarian regime - and State Security, for reasons if it's own, WANTS the perp or perps to get away with said heinous crime (although in 'Gorky Park' the KGB does change it's mind about that by the end of the movie, which could not have happened with the Gestapo in 'Fatherland' for the reason you alluded to).
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Indeed, a terrible film. I was very impressed with the book, but this film is just awful. No wonder I hadn't heard about it before. You can see it was made on a shoestring. In the beginning you even see a garage with a modern "Peugeot" logo. And the film is full of these sort of glitches. Although I find Rutger Hauer a great actor, I do associate him with such glitches. Back in the sixties he became world famous (but then only in the Netherlands) with the children TV series "Floris". It was about the adventures of a semi-fictitious medieval knight Floris. I remember as a little boy seeing Floris alias Rutger Hauer in a field with in the background modern days high voltage electricity poles.....
shareEven if the book was different. Everyone needs to be reminded that the entire war could have turned out differently and I wouldn't be alive right now to write this note. My father is Jewish and my great uncle had the number tattooed on his arm by the "SS", they also shot his wife and kids right in front of him.
Everyone needs to be reminded of these actions constantly if it's Pro, Con or otherwise. People think that it could never happen here in the USA but they are wrong. With the technology now and all the fake fear mongering going on now. It can happen anywhere. In my child's history book they had 3 pages on WWII and 5 pages on Marylyn Monroe? I saw Jay Leno interviewing college grads and he asked them if Germany was our ally or enemy in WWII, most by a huge majority said that they were our allies. Then he asked a couple of girls what Hitler's first name was and they replied "Timothy Hitler". So do you still think it can't happen here?
Everyone needs constant lessons on WWII and to beware of any government being infiltrated and to always stand up for our rights!
So watch the series and make sure it doesn't happen here! And read the book and if you want to see something based on reality, watch "The Odessa file" with Jon Voight from 1974.