MovieChat Forums > Scarlett (1994) Discussion > My issues

My issues

posted 17 years ago by Melissa_Antoinette_Garza
24 replies | jump to latest

It had been years since I had seen Scarlett. I was 14 when it first aired, and I enjoyed it then. Watching it now, it was like "Gone With The Wind" meets "Days of Our Lives." All of the sub-plots were out of place, and I loathed the character of Ann. I refuse to think of her as Mrs. Butler or Rhett's wife at all.

I've heard people trash Dalton's performance, but I think it's unfair. No one could fill Gable's shoes. Clark Gable is an icon in every way, shape and form. Dalton did as good as anyone could have given the circumstance. It was a new interpretation of Rhett and a valiant attempt at paying homage to Gable's performance.

Joanne Whalley's performance, I have mixed feelings about. Now, I hold Vivien Leigh in very sacred territory and for me she will always be Scarlett O'Hara. There were times, and I give Whalley kudos for this, that she did invoke some of the old Scarlett flare, but there were times when watching I'd cringe and say, "No....not like that!"

Gone With the Wind, is by far one of the greatest movies of all time. To try and recapture the chemistry and fire of Gable and Leigh is impossible. Still, for years there was this need in the viewers to see Scarlett get her happy ending. This was a way. It wasn't perfect but they tried.

If Rhett had ended with Scarlett in the original, I'm not sure it would have been nearly as popular. Still, Scarlett (speaking in GWTW terms) is so headstrong and determined one cannot help but hope for her to win Rhett back; and Rhett is just one of the most lovable characters of all times. God, I love Gable.

I just purchased the book and am awaiting its arrival. I read that years ago as well so I'm curious to see how different it is from this mini-series.

I think Scarlett would have been better received if there was a longer period where Scarlett and Rhett were happy. One of the greatest characteristics of Mitchell's Scarlett is the fact that she loved to gloat. Maturity doesn't have to change that, and I think it would have been fun to see them scamper about.

I thought the baby was unnecessary. If anything it could have ended with her being pregnant.

Lastly, I hated the character of Ann. I know I mentioned it before; but I HATED her. Rhett would have never been attracted to that wench. She was no different than any of the other girls. She sucked.

[–] hey_teacher 17 years ago

Melissa, I agree that there are far too many sub-plots in the mini-series. The whole Lord Fenton story is just stupid, and is completely different from the book.

I liked Dalton and Whaley as Rhett and Scarlett. They both gave good, strong performances. If they didn't have the ghosts of Gable and Leigh looking over their shoulders, I'm sure both would have been nominated for an Emmy award.

I also agree that there was not nearly enough of Rhett and Scarlett together --happy or otherwise. I enjoyed their bickering, and their "cat and mouse" mind games that was such a big part of the GWTW book. This surely could have been continued as they worked their way through the difficulties of their marriage.

The character of Ann Hampton/Butler was pretty odd. She was a Melanie type, but she differed because she did "go after" Rhett in a way that Melanie never would have. I also don't think Rhett would have allowed himself to get trapped into a marriage just because he compromised a woman - even if he was fond of her. He was far too strong-willed and independent to do that. In addition, I don't think he would ever have compromised a woman like Ann Hampton as he did in the mini-series. Their marriage happened due to entirely different circumstances in the book.

I enjoyed the character of "Cat" (Scarlett's daughter) in the book. She was much stronger and more important in the book than in the mini-series. She's a big part of the reason Rhett comes back to Scarlett; as she represents the "new life" in the relationship.

All in all, I take these sequels with a grain of salt. I happen to believe that Scarlett would have followed Rhett to Charleston and would have had another child (or more children) with him. I don't believe he would have married anyone else. Likewise, I don't see Scarlett living in Ireland either.

Post again when you've finished reading "Scarlett. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the book, and we can have a good discussion about it.

[–] Melissa_Antoinette_Garza 17 years ago

I definitely will, and I look forward to it.

It's so odd how GWTW stands the test of time. Even when reading the book, I imagine Clark Gable and Vivien Leigh as the characters. In the novel, when Rhett refuses to put any money into the lumber yard because of Ashley's connection, I always get aggravated reading that book because Rhett's insecurities are so clear. I always just want Scarlett to say she'd fire Ashley. I'm someone that always lives in the "if only" when it comes to GWTW, and I'm always thinking, "if only she realized before that Ashley was not the one for her." Then again, the book would have been quite different and most likely not nearly as successful.

At the end, I like you, believe she'd follow him to Charleston. I think she'd just browbeat him into taking her back. He would eventually find that cute again and relent, after making her suffer for a bit.

Yes, Ann to me is just too timid for him. If they perhaps (and maybe in the novel they do) made some emotional connection -something along the lines as he saw Ann as almost a Melanie character and attached himself to that out of losing Melanie, then I could almost understand it. If he just distanced himself from Scarlett and forced himself to think he had fallen for the opposite would almost make sense (if it wasn't Rhett Butler who had been content in his life as a bachelor beforehand)....but even then I just don't see Ann that way. She wasn't pure or righteous really. I think she's conniving in her own way, but doesn't have the gumption or audacity that was so attractive in Scarlett. I just think that Rhett would have easily seen through Ann and kept walking.

My question is why can't they make films like GWTW any more. So few movies capture the audience to that level. Actors like Spencer Tracy, Sidney Poitier, Henry Fonda, Humphrey Bogart, Jimmy Stewart, etc., are just not there. No one is captivating anymore.

The moment Gable gets on camera whether it is in "It Happened One Night," or "Dancing Lady," etc., the moment he's on camera all eyes are on him. In the films where he stars opposite Tracy, the chemistry is so right and all the pieces fall into place so perfectly that one has to wonder how Hollywood has gotten so lost.

I watched his documentary recently. The Turner Network, "Tall Dark And Handsome' and one of the women had said that back in the day casting was such a pivotal part and that they would do everything they could to get the best actors together...now a vicious combination of lack of talent and ego ruin nearly every production.

Anyways, this is supposed to be a feel-good blog, so I apologize! I will most definitely write back after I read Scarlett to discuss with you my thoughts- especially those of Cat.

Much thanks,

Melissa

[–] hey_teacher 17 years ago

Oh, you are so right about the actors of today not being able to captivate the audience anymore! I watched OCEANS 13 a few days ago, and there is no real
chemistry between Clooney and Pitt...funny at times, sassy and smart-assed, but no chemistry. There are no real "stars" anymore from this generation, not like it used to be in the old days. Thank god for TCM and the Turner network!

I watched some YOUTUBE clips of Gable and Lombard in Atlanta for the GWTW premiere and in Hollywood. They were beautiful together...just beautiful. If you haven't already seen it, watch NO MAN OF HER OWN. They are wonderful in that film, and that was 4 years before they fell in love in 1936!

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on SCARLETT, and I'll keep checking in to see your next post.

Take care and happy reading!
Rita

[–] Melissa_Antoinette_Garza 17 years ago

I love "No Man of Her Own," and am so fascinated by the whole relationship of Lombard and Gable. I love that they called each other "ma" and "pa." It was so sad that she died so untimely.

Gable himself was just so down to earth as well. I love when they declared him King and he said (to paraphrase) "I've played a lot of things, but I've never played a king." He just had such a level head on his shoulders.

They wonder why even the most famed actors of today don't spark the same awe that those from yesterday still do. It's simply because the talent and charisma lack so much.

A Julia Roberts will never captivate like Myrna Loy. I think today everyone is so worried about appearing raw without stepping over the boundaries that PC dictates. They think by raunchy humor and over-the-top violence they can call themselves deep and thought-provoking. It's all superficial. The dialogue and intensity between the characters is gone. Character development is absent because the actors haven't the depth or the script to back them if they did. It's so sad.

AT the very least, we do have TCM to get us through. The Gable collection is an awesome buy off that site. It's only $49.95 and comes with six of his best. It even has that documentary I was telling you about, on the San Francisco DVD. I love it. I'm going to end up buying all of the sets, eventually.

But films of yesterday were RAW and captivating so much more than what is put out today. I think now that they purposely just 'dumbed' down everything for the audience. I much rather watch Mr. Smith Goes to Washington than laugh at what passes for Drama nowadays, and I'd much rather watch "It Happened One Night," than sit through any of the "Apatow" productions.

I could go on and on and rant forever so I'll stop. I am enjoying these posts though. Typically, I go on the boards of modern films and are slaughtered for my opinions. They tell me that I don't 'understand' modern entertainment and that these new trashy comedies are actually really thoughtful. I just don't see it.

Melissa

[–] hey_teacher 17 years ago

I'll check out the Gable collection at TCM, 6 movies for $49.95 isn't bad at all...not for 6 Gable DVDs anyway!

I love the Gable and Lombard relationship too. I don't believe that he was as unfaithful to her as some biographers suggest. It just doesn't fit in the whole "big picture". If he was routinely unfaithful to her, then I don't believe he would have been as devastated by her death as he was. Also, he kept looking for her in his subsequent wives - why would if do that if he wasn't madly in love with her?

I agree with you about the current crop of movies. They're too trashy for me too. I liked the old comedies better, when you didn't have it all "spelled out" for you. That's one of the reasons I love GWTW so much. You didn't see the sex between Scarlett and Rhett...but the night he carried her upstairs left no doubt in anyone's mind about what happened.

I'm enjoying these posts too! It's so nice to have an in-depth conversation with someone who not only understands the references that are being made - but can comment upon them as well!

Rita

[–] Melissa_Antoinette_Garza 17 years ago

I know. If I were to discuss these things with nearly anyone else they would be dumbfounded by the references.

The subtlety is completely gone from films. Some of the hottest scenes are those when the viewers want something to happen but is left unfulfilled. Like in "The Dancing Lady" when Gable rubs the cramp out Crawford's leg. Watching it, you can't help but hope he kisses her, but he doesn't. And it is still hotter than any scene you'll see today.

I completely agree with you about the unfaithfulness. Just like the media bombards stars today, it was the same back then. There isn't a doubt in my mind that he adored her, and had she lived I think he would have stayed with her forever.

[–] hey_teacher 17 years ago

I agree on all points.

Sometimes I think that Hollywood now believes it's the only place where people have sex, and they have to "bump and grind" the whole act out for the rest of us because we're too dumb to get the point otherwise.

"The Dancing Lady" was a great film, Gable and Crawford had such chemistry. After he died, Crawford said he was one of the great loves of her life.

I also like "It Happened One Night". The scene where they're both in the little cottage, with the blanket hanging between them is pure gold. Then, after they're married, they return to the same spot and you hear the trumpet sound. It's priceless!

[–] Melissa_Antoinette_Garza 17 years ago

It Happened One Night is one of my faves.. I also love the closing moment when the blanket drops. The hints are so much better than the act.

I truthfully believe Gable could have had chemistry with ANYONE... He just had it all.

[–] hey_teacher 17 years ago

I certainly believe that, but, I don't think Vivien Leigh was all that impressed with him. Of course, she was head over heels in love with Olivier at the time.

Greer Garson was another actress that didn't think much of him. Then, I've never cared much for her either...

I think he was really funny with Doris Day in Teacher's Pet when he was older.
The night club scene where she's sitting at the table with him (watching the exotic dancer)is terrific. She can't stop laughing...and I don't think it was just acting.

[–] Melissa_Antoinette_Garza 17 years ago

I heard about the conflict with Leigh, but whenever I hear stuff like that I ignore it. It's just in every single acceptance speech I've seen him give and in every single moment of raw footage with him, he's always been so gracious and kind. I can't imagine him reacting in any other way.

Just the fact that he was outright refusing to go to the premiere of GWTW because Hattie McDaniel was banned, I think speaks volumes. He was a man of conviction... It took Mcdaninel telling him to go for him to relent.

Gable is one of the few actors that someone could come up and go on and on about how absolutely awful he was, and at the end of the conversation I'd respond with, "he is so fantastic in (insert any one of his classics)." He's so great that even if he was awful in real life (not that I believe for a moment he was), it wouldn't take the focus off his work.

[–] hey_teacher 17 years ago

I know what you mean. I was watching GWTW videos on Youtube last night. One poster stated that after she saw the film in the 1960s, Vivien said how "absolutely gorgeous" Gable was...I assume she meant more that his looks.

Here's his best quote: "He was lucky and he knew it."

[–] Melissa_Antoinette_Garza 17 years ago

I know! I'm actually rereading Gable's biography (until Scarlett arrives) and it states that Gable was known not to have a bad side. He never cared what angle people shot him from because he looked good from all angles.

I just wish that people were still like that. As mediocre as Band of Angels is, the pairing between Gable and Poitier is so amazingly strong. Just as it was between Tracy and Poitier years later. IT's sad that the three couldn't have been in a film together.

If only we could clone all of these actors instead of being stuck with people like Ashton Kutcher and Jude Law.

[–] hey_teacher 17 years ago

OMG! Don't get me started on Ashton Kutcher! I saw him on Leno several years ago,(before he married Demi Moore). He was a complete idiot. "I mean, like, um, like, I mean, um, you know" idiot.

Every time I think of this new crop of Hollywood "stars" I get really depressed.

My three all time favorites are: Peter O'Toole, Cary Grant, and Clark Gable.
I could spend all day watching their films and never get enough. Right now, I'm watching O'Toole's "My Favorite Year". I've seen it at least 100 hundred times, and can recite almost the entire film be heart. No other living actor could have played the part of Alan Swann...nobody. I also think O'Toole could have played any of the Gary Grant parts too. He comes very close to being Cary Grant in "How to Steal a Million".

Like he said to Hepburn in "The Lion in Winter", I hope he NEVER dies!

[–] Melissa_Antoinette_Garza 17 years ago

Yes, all three are great. I think a lot of it was the fact that the actors of yesteryear generally began in theater, and had a love for the art. Now you have people born into success or bred for it, and it ends up so affected.

Then they try to put out what they think is real like "Crash" or "Hustle and Flow" but the performances are weak, and the situations too over the top to be considered realistic. If I'm mistaken and that is reality, I certainly don't want to watch it to escape.

And even the romances nowadays..everything is either a PG-13 film with a hard as nails chick falling for a soft and dignified gent. I'm a feminist and I love Helen Reddy but this Tomb Raider syndrome that every female character has to be is ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with a damsel in distress or a man willing to come to the rescue. IT's just that today's thoughts are that there has to be a complete role reversal to equate to a strong woman, and that's just not the case. "Dancing Lady," is a perfect example. Joan Crawford is tough as nails. The gym scene is one of my favorite when she struggles to pull the weights as fast as he does. She even initiates the kiss at the end. Still, she still felt pain and didn't feel the need to be this strange HE-Woman.

I know this is off topic but it's something that I find really disheartening. That somehow we've made being a lady the opposite of being a feminist. Tramps, however have become the ideal strong women. Christina Aguilera and Lil' Kim are prime examples. They leave nothing to the imagination and in my opinion are just tawdry and they have become the ideal woman? I just don't think that this is what the womens' movement had in mind.

More than that, there used to be solidarity between women. When Marilyn Monroe died Joan Crawford made this amazing quote. It was something along the lines that she thought Monroe had been unprofessional and an exhibitionist but that she felt sympathy for her. She wanted to know why she had died alone.

That solidarity is gone. In hollywood and just in everyday life. The class of yesterday is gone and its replaced with this artificial sense of realism. They think if they accept sex and violence in the rawest forms they have become this insane utopia of truth. When in actuality we just continue to deviate and deviate, and life imitates art, instead of vice versa. Then these over-the-top acts of heinousness have become truth. I really believe that's why society is the way it is.

I don't see the need for video games like Grand Theft Auto or movies that glamorize acts of indecency. I'm not for censorship per-say but I just wish that people would be restrictive in their choosing so these products would fail. The Bratz dolls for example; I hate that they're popular. I think that it's damaging for young girls to have those as idols. They're all tramps.

I'm sorry, I probably sound like an offended old lady, and I'm really not. I do watch R rated movies and I even review horror films, but I don't see why everything that was once sacred has to be replaced with things so trashy.

[–] hey_teacher 17 years ago

Oh, I don't think you're an old lady at all...there are so many of us who share the same view.

I'm a 1960's kid, and I remember all of the great Doris Day/Rock Hudson, Doris Day/James Gardner films. I remember going to see them at the movie theatre. I love all of those 1960's romance/comedies like How to "Steal a Million" with O'Toole and Audrey Hepburn that I mentioned in my previous post. I love how O'Toole and Audrey got locked in the broom closet together...you'd never see a scene like that today.

Doris, Audrey, Debbie Reynolds, those were the female leads when I grew up. They were all so beautiful...each in a completely different way...and multi-talented too:singing, dancing, acting. They were utterly feminine -- just like Lombard, and funny. Not the "stupid" funny, but sharp-witted, and charming. Those are the kind of female characters I like. Women who are independent and strong-minded,chaste but still looking for love and romance...looking for a male stronger than she is. Not like today, where almost every dialogue between the male and female turns into a battle of the sexes.

I'm a feminist too (although I don't care for Helen Reddy) and I've worked in male-driven Corporate America for over 25 years now. So, I'm all for equal opportunity and equal pay. But, I'm not angry like so many of the female leads
now...and I'm not a "man hater". Sure, I've had my share of "losers" in the romance department, and I don't know too many women who haven't, but I haven't let it sour me, or make me hard and bitter. I've been married for nearly 20 years, and I love the romance and tenderness a long-term relationship brings.

That's what's missing in movies and T.V. now. Everybody, has a chip on their shoulder, a point to prove, a score to settle. There is no romance or tenderness in films anymore. That really frightens me for the young girls of today. My generation had dreams of "a knight in shining armor" and living happily ever after. This generation dreams about having sex with the knight in shining armor, and then kicking him in the ass.

Even Hannah Montana...here's Disney's new sweetheart,the role model for the newest generation of women. My daughter watches her show all of the time, and everytime I hear dialogue it's all about Hannah outsmarting her not-too-bright dad or mouthing off to him about something. Can you imagine Wally or Beaver doing that to Ward Cleaver? There is something reassuring, for a child, to know that the adult is smarter than he/she is.

There is something reassuring, for a woman, to know that she can find romance, love, and tenderness with a man who is stronger that she is. Isn't that what is so hard to take about the ending in GWTW? Scarlett, a strong yet romantic female, finally discovers this about Rhett -- only to have him leave her because she figured it all out too late.

[–] Melissa_Antoinette_Garza 17 years ago

Exactly!
I couldn't agree more.

I'm 28 years old and have worked since 15. I know sexism is alive and well and where real injustice is, I'm the first in line ready to fight against it. Because of my thoughts on many topics, I'm often referred to as a little old lady. Usually, it's a term of endearment, so I let it slide.

Now, however feminism has transcended from a great political stance against the hardships women have had to endure into a confused social stance that attempts to emulate anything viewed as masculine.

How is cheering Brittany Spears 16 year old sister for getting pregnant helping womankind? How is Nick going as far as to put on a show to promote safe sex in teen girls, anyway aiding the situation. It's like society and the media has become this enabler to destructive behavior. It has given everyone excuses to act irresponsibly and erratic.

There isn't anything wrong with a strong woman finding a partner in a strong man. In nearly every role, Clark Gable was a strong man who found strong women attractive. His characters didn't go for the dim. He wanted a woman who was bright and strong. Strange Cargo is one of the best examples where at the end Crawford gets short with him and he responds with something to the affect that to keep him in line he needs a woman with strength.

Now, we have these overpowering, emotionless women who in films fawn after the weakest men one could ever meet. And if a man isn't weak, he's a jerk or a hoodlum. The polite but rugged man has disappeared. The man has now become the punchline for every "witty" remark that the woman offers.

It's a strange forced role reversal that fails over and over again.

[–] hey_teacher 17 years ago

Yes, I knew you were about 20 years younger than me. I've been a college instructor for 13 years, and I must say that I'm delighted someone of your age group has this perspective. It gives me hope for the future!

I have a number of young female students and they are all "soured" -- as I said before -- about men and romantic relationships. I see them repeat the same pattern of behavior over and over again...going from one idiot male to the next -- because they think that's the only choice they have. After each break-up they're in worse shape than before, and they all look old before their time.

I'm really, really sick of Britney, Paris, and Lindsay. Thankfully, my kids and my students all know they're nut cases. Nobody understands why there is so much media fascination with these three. Unless, of course, it's the same fascination of waiting for an on-coming train wreck...just like Anna Nicole Smith. Who was surprised by how that all turned out? I only hope the baby girl with turn out normal, and that her father doesn't let her become a media freak like Anna.

Back on point -- yes "feminism" has become a sorry joke of its original intent.
Again, I think this is all because of very large group of very angry women who
"took the ball and ran with it", but in the wrong direction. None of us who've worked in the trenches of Corporate America want to be men. We just want to be recoginized as an equal in terms of opportunity and pay.

Look at all of the great female leads over the years -- Lombard, Kate Hepburn,
Audrey Hepburn, Doris Day, to name a few -- they were all bright, beautiful, vivacious, and attractive to strong, intelligent men. They all were glad to be women too. Hepburn once said that she lived her life like a man, but I doubt that's true -- Tracy would never have had anything to do with her if she did.

Marilyn was the only exception: blond, dim, and full-of-woe. Naturally, she died before her time, basically because she outlived her usefulness -- and she knew it. In reply to your comment about Crawford, Marilyn died alone because she lived alone.

[–] Melissa_Antoinette_Garza 17 years ago

Agreed on all accounts. It's just that as much as the media trashes women like Paris, Lindsay and Britney they have spawned this extremely large sub-culture of, for lack of a better term, trash.

It's as though women don't want to be respected anymore because they take it as a sign of weakness.

I work at a bank in an office environment where gossip reigns as king, and everyone spills about their home lives. Some of the stories are just depressing as hell, but the women talk about it with a smile on their face. The insults that are thrown their way are ones I'd never think to tolerate but for them it happens on a daily basis and it's as routine as brushing their teeth. It's just such a bizarre transformation and one that I can't stand.

I got in both Scarlett and Rhett Butler's People, so I'll let you know what I think!

[–] hey_teacher 17 years ago

Happy Reading! I'm looking forward to a long discussion with you on both books.

I'll leave you alone for now so that you can read, and I'll PM you later so we can continue this conversation privately.

[–] hey_teacher 17 years ago

Melissa,

I sent you a PM.

[–] Melissa_Antoinette_Garza 17 years ago

I Sent you one back :)

[–] furienna 17 years ago

Hello! I just have to say that I think you had an interesting discussion going on there, and I agree with a lot of what you said.

Yes, it's true! IMDB has reached Sweden!

[–] hey_teacher 17 years ago

Thanks so much. Feel free to add your opinions.

[–] furienna 17 years ago

Well, first off, I'm what you might call a difference feminist. I believe that there are differences between men and women. But I also believe that everybody is just as precious as another, so a woman isn't worth less than a man, if that makes sense.

I don't see Britney Spears, Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan as role models. And I hope no one else does either. But I actually don't even care about them. They can live their lives, and I will live mine.

About "Scarlett", I actually liked it. But then, I tend to like period pieces just because they're period pieces, even if other people think they're bad. The murder trial was a little bit weird though, especially if it wasn't even there in the book.

Yes, it's true! IMDB has reached Sweden!