Brutal music critique


First of all, I just want to say that the *presentation* of the music in this film was excellent. Did you notice that there is almost no music at all? We're 10 minutes into the film before we hear a single note, and even then it's part of the plot, not frivilous background.

Ok, but now I have to get rude. Did anyone else find "The Unification" symphony to be totally bland, unimaginative and amateur? Listen carefully: it's no more than a kindergartener's attempt to play the "confutatis maledictum" passage of Mozart's Requiem.

In contrast, listen to the music for Rouge which is much more imaginative than this. It is composed by the same person (Zbigniew Preisner), so I know that they could've had a better score than the one they used for Bleu. It makes me wonder, do you think they purposely made the music sound lifeless and uninspired? It would truly fit the spirit of the film. If so, I'm impressed.

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I couldn't disgree more regarding "Song for the Unification of Europe" -- I find it to be a powerful piece that adds much to the film's climax. And I don't hear any great similarity between Preisner's work and Mozart's Requiem.

Blue's score received a healthy amount of critical acclaim. Preisner won the Los Angeles Film Critics Association award for this and his scores to The Secret Garden and Olivier, Olivier. The music for Blue was also nominated for a Cesar and for a Golden Globe. James Berardinelli's on-line review makes reference to "Zbigniew Preisner's grand score." Another reviewer of Blue refers to the "especially memorable music composed by Zbigniew Preisner."

Of course none of this makes Preisner come off the better in a comparison with Mozart, but that's rather a high standard to hold a composer to, don't you think?

In any event, there certainly wasn't any deliberate attempt to make a "totally bland, unimaginative and amateur" score that sounded "lifeless and uninspired." Wouldn't that totally undercut the story and its resolution?

Going to Kieslowski himself, he said of Blue's main musical work that it "is cited all through the film and then at the end we hear it in its entirety, solemn and grand." Kieslowski on Kieslowski, p. 224. That characterization works for me.

-- TopFrog

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"Listen carefully: it's no more than a kindergartener's attempt to play the "confutatis maledictum" passage of Mozart's Requiem. "

i noticed this also the second i heard it

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Even if there is a similarity between Confutatis and the theme for this film, the director could do worse than paying homage to the greatest musical genius of all time. Can't say I noticed any similarity though, and I thought the music fitted the film well, although that in 3 Colours: RED was unquestionably superior.

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As Kieslowski himself once said, "Music notes all exist, waiting for someone to order them. That two individuals in different places can think of the same music is an example of what unites people."

-- TopFrog

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I completely agree with the initial post. Definitely rings of confutatis and although I love Mozart's requiem, the music in Blue was a real let-down for me.


You're nothing to me now, you're not a brother, you're not a friend, I don't want to know you or what you do

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My own feeling is that Kieslowsky and Priesner want to portray the composer in the film as second rate. They even allude to the fact that he is copying music by Van Budenmayer who, as we know, is their invention - a fictitious Dutch genius of a composer whose music in "Double Life of Veronique" was so impressive and original and who is also mentioned hallowed terms in "Red".

By comparison, the work of Patrice/Julie is music-by-numbers. A simplistic repeated note idea over-egged with "grand" orchestration. Even a drunken beggar on the street can replicate it on a recorder without too much trouble!

Clearly Patrice is an overrated composer - perhaps an allusion to the fact that the unification of Europe is an overrated concept.

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Setting aside for a moment the issue of the quality of Preisner’s music in Blue, it’s clear to me that there was not an intent to portray Patrice as a second-rate composer. Aside from the statement of Kieslowski I quoted elsewhere in this thread, that the main music of Blue is "solemn and grand," the published script for Blue refers to the piece as "magnificent and beautiful." Patrice is described at his funeral as “the greatest” living composer, and at the end of Red Julie is described as the widow of Patrice, an "eminent" French composer.

The movie does not allude that Patrice is "copying" Van Den Budenmayer’s music, but rather states that Van Den Budenmayer is his favorite composer, and that he incorporates in his work passages from Van Den Budenmayer. It’s very common for composers to incorporate and vary melodies or passages from folk songs or other works – Brahms, Copland, and Shostakovich come to mind as composers who did that.

Regarding your suggestion about the music making a comment on the unification of Europe, we have Kieslowski’s answer to an interviewer’s question as to whether the main work in Blue was to be taken "as a masterpiece, or ironically?" Kieslowski acknowledged a certain degree of irony was associated with the work, since Europe did not indeed unite as planned. But he then went on to draw an analogy to a love song written for a wedding that ends up being called off. "Does it lose its value? No. There is only a certain kind of bitterness over the disappointment, for we had expected more from our marriage candidates – we had expected them to unite. But they do not." (The interview is in the collection Lucid Dreams: The Films of Krzysztof Kieslowski, at pp.160-174.)

Now back to the music itself. I like it, as did others, as evidenced by the nominations and awards for the score I noted in an earlier message. (Many did not care for it, as can be seen by other messages here.) But it is simple music, and that’s by design. Here’s what Preisner had to say regarding Blue’s music: "Krzysztof Kieslowski liked simple music, although played by a huge orchestra. That is why very often in order to stress the emotions and to achieve a strong effect I wrote in unison but in widely spaced octaves. It gives the impression that this music is very expansive and monumental." Mark Russell & James Young, Film Music, p.168. Though I enjoy Preisner’s work here and in other Kieslowski films, I can understand that it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, that some are looking for something more musically complicated.

- TopFrog

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You should not take everything KK says at such face value. There are too many subtexts in his work to interpret his comments so literally. One should always go on ones own instincts.

Preisner's comments say it all: unison, octaves, simple gestures, lazy writing, over-orchestration: a purposeful attempt to write "bad" music.

Preisner=Van Budenmayer. Why put in an allusion to plagiarism if not to suggest that Patrice's music is second-rate?

As for the comments about Patrice being "eminent" and "greatest living", what else would you expect at a funeral and on a brief news bulletin?

Finally, the suggestion throughout the movie is that Julie was the actual composer. I would go further and say that Julie was the talent and Patrice the journeyman. Observe her sensitivity and taste when working to complete the piece compared to Patrice's bombast. And that is why Olivier rejected the completion. It was too much her work and not enough Patrice's.

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We may just have to agree to disagree on this -- clearly our instincts are taking us in different directions. I find the score to be moving (albeit simple) music. I don't see incorporating a theme from another composer as akin in any way to plagiarism, nor do I see any suggestion from the film that it or the characters view it that way. Copland incorporated a Shaker melody into "Appalacian Spring," and I don't think any less of him for doing so.

I read Olivier's refusal to accept Julie's score as his way of forcing her to start composing in her own name, rather than allowing a man (be it Patrice or Olivier) to take credit for her work. It wasn't in any way a rejection of what she had done, but rather a refusal on his part to pretend that it was his own work.

My biggest problem with the idea that the music in Blue was deliberately bad is that it completely undercuts the resolution of the story. Julie's return to life through her return to composing is to produce what? A simplistic over-orchestrated bombastic piece of drivel that plagiarizes the work of another composer? Somehow I don't think that's what Kieslowski intended. At least my instincts tell me that he didn't.

-- TopFrog

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You misunderstood me on the last point. It is Julie's work that shows taste and sensitivity which is why Olivier rejected it for a conclusion to Patrice's bombastic European symphony. He was telling Julie that her work is worthier, enouraging her "rebirth".

The difference with Patrice/VanBudenmayer and Copeland/Folk music is that the former is fictitious and hence we have to look for reasons why it was put into the story. Why this reference to Van Budenmayer if not for the reasons I suggest?

Of course a reaction to any music is subjective - I just feel that the obvious simplicity of Preisner's score in comparision to DLoV or White is meaningful.

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I don't see any particular message in the mention of Van Den Budenmayer in Blue -- this was just a continuation of the in-joke of referencing him in Kieslowski's films. The other mentions of Van Den Budenmayer, those in Decalogue 9, Double Life, and Red, didn't have any particular meanings for those stories. (There was a reference to him in the White script, in a scene that did not appear in the final film.) Nothing in Blue leads me to the conclusion that it is an exception in this regard. If you're going to make a reference to Van Den Budenmayer, and one of your characters is is a composer, it seems natural to refer to Van Den Budenmayer as an influence and inspiration for that composer.

I will agree with you that the Blue score is not Preisner's best. I prefer the soundtracks for Double Life and Red.

-- TopFrog

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Great discussion; I never noticed the Van Den Budenmayer reference nor its possible significance. Overall, I have to agree with barryriley-1. Speaking as a musical critic rather than a cinematic one, I can say that unison, octaves, etc are ridiculously pedantic by today's standards. I don't believe any good composer would resort to these cliches unless making a tongue-in-cheek joke or an ironic statement. And Preisner is indeed a good composer as we hear in Red.

In movie terms, think of the worst cliche: a fireplace in the background of a romantic scene. No director today would ever pull that unless deliberately making fun of the idea (like that hilarious scene in Top Secret when a fireplace floats by on a parachute!) So I'm thinking Preisner deliberately made the EU theme childishly simple.

Now, it is entirely possible that Kieslowsky--not being a musical aficianado--was impressed by the simple score and thought it would be magnificent. Great directors are notorious for having questionable musical taste (Wim Wenders). But then that leads me back to the same question: why is the score for Red so much better?

I believe Patrice's EU theme was intended to sound oppressively boring. After all, isn't that the sort of life Juliet was living with him? As for its political significance regarding the fate of Europe... wow, I can't say, but I don't believe it was a very optimistic commentary.

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rooprect,

Thanks for your contributions to the discussion, and for raising the topic in the first place.

It's an interesting idea that you and barryriley-1 have, that Preisner's music in Blue was intentionally bad to achieve some sort of ironic effect. However, the facts don't support that view.

Kieslowski and those closest to him did not speak about the music in Blue as being intentionally bad, and did not treat the music that way. Here’s the evidence:

1. Kieslowski's words, part one. As I noted in another message in this thread, Kieslowski referred to the final playing of the "Song for the Unification of Europe" as "solemn and grand." No hint of irony here. (Barryriley-1 points out that we should not necessarily take Kieslowski's words at face value. Okay, but we shouldn't completely discount his words either. If he had said that the music in Blue was intentionally bad, would we ignore his words then?)

2. Kieslowski's words, part two. When Kieslowski was straight out asked in an interview whether the unification song was to be taken as a masterpiece or ironically, he noted the irony in terms of a work written for a unification that did not occur, but stated that the irony did not detract from the work’s value.

3. Preisner's words. Preisner, in the interview I quoted in an earlier message, wrote about the simplicity of the music in Blue, but does not mention any intended irony or intentional attempt to write substandard music. This is an interview in a book about film music, the very place where one would expect Preisner to discuss the ironic effect he was trying to achieve (if that had been his goal). In fact in the very next paragraph of the interview he discusses irony in music, but with regard to White: "In Three Colours: White the music score is completely ironic."

4. Preisner's actions. Preisner included the unification song on his concert CD "Preisner's Music," a project for which he selected the works. Why would he select the piece if he had deliberately written it as inferior music?

5. Jacques Witta and the Blue script. This is a small point, but worth mentioning nonetheless. The script for Blue refers to the unification song as "magnificent and beautiful." Jacques Witta, the editor of Blue, says on the Region 1 DVD that the music in Blue follows the directions in the script. If what was finally intended was "childishly simple" music instead of "magnificent and beautiful" music, one would not expect Witta to make that remark.

6. Annette Insdorf's view. Insdorf collaborated with Kieslowski, and apparently had a personal friendship with him. As such she might have been aware of any ironic intent in the score for Blue. Yet she states in her book on Kieslowski's films that the music in the final scene of Blue is "rightly called 'solemn and grand'" by Kieslowski.

Against all this evidence, all I see are some opinions expressed here that the music was so bad or simple or childish or boring, that it must have been intentionally inferior. But even these opinions seem to be a minority view – this music won awards, and I could easily cite ten reviewers/commentators praising the music in Blue. (And, to be fair, I could cite one or two critical comments as well.) None of this is definitive regarding the quality of the music, but you wouldn't expect deliberately bad music to garner so much praise.

In sum, if Kieslowski and Preisner were intentionally trying to introduce boring music into Blue, neither they nor their close collaborators have said so, in words or actions. And any such attempt must have been an abject failure, at least in view of the opinions of the majority of reviewers/commentators (among those that expressed an opinion) praising the music in Blue.

- TopFrog

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Wow, great recap, TF. Especially points 2 & 3 are pretty conclusive. This has led me to re-think my entire position.

Being mostly unimpressed by the last 100 years of classical composition, I suppose I'm carrying a lot of prejudice. But I still realize that simple themes & melodies can pack a lot of punch. I guess there's no law that says all good music must have complicated, interwoven melodies & harmonies. And after all, why would a piece about unification have counterpoints and harmonic tension? *smacks self in forehead* duh.

So ok, my new stance is this: the piece isn't supposed to sound amateur or childish, but it IS designed to be simple, much like Copeland's "Fanfare for the Common Man" ... or how about Black Sabbath: "Iron Man" ;) where all the instruments are playing the same thing for the sake of sheer power.

In this sense, I can agree it's a well written piece, but I still think it has hints of oppression & fatalism, even if that wasn't the conscious intent. It reminds me of a military dirge for soldiers marching to their doom--magnificent, yes, but deliberately non-expressive. Well, I'm not even a real musician (I just play one on the internet), so maybe I'll look up some of the musical reviews of Blue to see if I'm anywhere close to what the pros say.

Thanks, again... this discussion has actually enhanced my understanding of the film itself. I think.

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I'm not a classical music aficionado but this was a very interesting discussion to read. Thanks.

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Well, rooprect, are you sure you are not trying to impress us ordinary folks for implying that this wonderful music is idiotic? And if you know music so much, how is it possible that you do not understand the concept of hymn? Hymns are supposed to be simple (in order to be remembered) and bombastic (because of their nature). If this song was a real hymn of a country, I doubt it wouldn't be the best in the world.

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I've been looking for a thread on this score. The original poster brings a point. 'Song for the Unification of Europe' is a powerful piece of music, very similar to Mozart, but I thought that paticular song was a little too dramatized for the Julies stoicism. But this could have been Kieslowski's intent. Other ballets like when she's on the stairs or goes back into the pool were perfection with the theme of the film. I saw this film once a while ago, so it's not the best opinion.

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While the music as a film score works very well (and deserves prizes), as a concert piece it is extremely poor which must reflect the idea that Patrice's work was finished by his wife (who helped with corrections) and a colleague (not famous in his own right). It always amuses me to hear Julie talk about the "counterpoint coming back at the end". The piece is almost completely monodic!

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