MovieChat Forums > Philadelphia (1994) Discussion > Why didn´t Miguel get Aids too?

Why didn´t Miguel get Aids too?


What I mean is if Andy (Hanks) was already with Miguel (Banderas) by the time he had sex in the theater with the unknown gay and got the disease, how is it he didn´t pass it to Miguel?

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Because Hanks was the receiver.

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I agree with that.

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what do you mean...if you receive it you cannot pass it to someone else ?

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Your posr is a couple of years old, but I already have been bumping old threads, so maybe this answer will help. They meant "receiver" as in Andy was likely the partner who had receptive anal intercourse, which is the easiest mode of transmission. Colloquially referred to as "a bottom" partner. Miguel was likely "a top"--insertive partner--where transmission is much less common.

This is assuming these two partners had anal intercourse. Many people don't know this, but some homosexual men aren't into anal sex. (It's true.) However, intercourse is more likely than not, so let's look at the numbers. "A top" partner with an infected partner has only about a 1 out of 1,500-1,600 chance of infection per act. (1 out of 909 from one study.) These stats are assuming circumsized and also acknowledged it can be higher when another STD that causes an open sore is active. (Although these stats may include such transmissions--it's fuzzy.)

A receptive partner's chance of being infected by a poz partner per act? Anywhere from 1 out of 58 to 1 out of 122, delending on the study.

It's easy to see how one partner--if they are, in fact, exclusively or even routinely the receptive partner--is at the greater risk. Miguel not getting it from Andy is very realistic even when assuming they had regular intercourse without protection before Andy became aware of his status. There are also going to be the rare people who can be exposed countless times (including receptive partners) who will never seroconvert. They likely have a gene that safegaurds them for the virus either for longer than most people or even forever.

There are so many things to consider for how some never get infected.

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what do you mean...if you receive it you cannot pass it to someone else ?

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It's a crap shoot for the most part. I personally know of two women who married down-low men who had contracted full blown AIDS and ultimately died...but neither of them contracted the disease.

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[deleted]

[deleted]

what do you mean.
if kids read your post they will stop wearing condoms so please explain yourself

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Beckett didn't use protection in the theater. He did with Miguel.
Quite simple, really.

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Exactly. Being with some one who has AIDS does not mean that you automatically get it. Using protection can help greatly. There are many many couples where one person is positive and the other is negative, and the negative person never contracts the disease.

While practicing safe sex can't protect against AIDS 100% it is a very effective method for preventing it.

"We're all pretty bizarre. Some of us are just better at hiding it, that's all."

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Not that this is the reason why, but it is impossible to be immune to AIDS just like how someone can be immune to something else. But it is a very small percentage of the population.

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Actually, I think there is a small part of the European population that is somehow not as succeptible to the disease. They have something different about the marker or receptor on their cells that make it very difficult for them to get the disease, which some people think may be from the time of the plague (it made them less resistant to the plague).

But yeah, overall not really possible to be immune. Just a luck of the draw sometimes, I guess.

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I have a natural immunity to smallpox which no one was aware of until I had a re-vaccination in 1970 for an overseas trip. I was told by the doctor that this shows up in only 5-10% of the world population. It is not far out of the realm to think that there would be people immune or partially immune to AIDS or any other disease either.

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There are people who are immune. I believe I read a story a while back about a group of scientists who used their anti-bodies to cure a person.

They seem to be extremely rare, but most people aren't tested for those kinds of things, so we may never know how many people are resistant.

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I saw a documentary on natgeo about this gene called delta32 to prevents the virus from attacking the white blood cells.

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Not that this is the reason why, but it is impossible to be immune to AIDS just like how someone can be immune to something else. But it is a very small percentage of the population.


Yes. I was reading an article the other day how some people are immune to HIV/AIDS. Here's the quote for it:

"In fact, about one percent of Caucasians are immune to HIV. Some say it goes back to the Great Plague; people who survived the plague developed an immunity, and that immunity was passed down to their heirs today."

http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/news-details.php?nid=209739

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I like your quote, I am gonna use it as my facebook status. :)
.
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P.S.-I don't think it is mentioned that Andrew did or didn't use a condom with either the anonymous guy or Miguel. Also I agree with the receiver/transmitter comment.

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how can you agree with the receiver-transmitter comment...
meaning if you receive it you cannot pass it to someone else ?

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[deleted]

[deleted]

the man in the theater was a gay man, not "an unknown gay"

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It could've been luck too. I read of a group of African prostitutes who slept with HIV positive men multiple times and never contracted the virus themselves. I don't think they are immune to it b/c it can be transmitted through multiple cases but how they never contracted the virus still remains a mystery to scientists!

The more I see of men, the more I like dogs.

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[deleted]

It's like the son of Paul Michael Glaser, who has been HIV+ his entire life, but is doing so well that I think they took him off treatment. He and his father both apparently have this particular gene, which might have been why Paul was able to ward off the disease and why his son is still alive and his daughter died so quickly. I don't have all the details, but do go google Jake Glaser. He's such an inspiration to all, as is his whole family.

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It's interesting that it is assumed they were having anal sex.. It could be as simple as Andy went to the Theater in the first place because he was looking for something different - even when coupled, not all gay couples have anal sex... Most other forms of gay sex are pretty low risk... It doesn't mention why, of course it could be for all the other reasons stated on this board, but I just found it funny that it's assumed that all gay men who are together are having anal sex...

It takes 46 muscles to frown but only 4 to flip 'em the bird...

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Also, if you have unprotected sex with someone with AIDS, you have a small chance of not getting AIDS....but it was most likely that he used protection with Miguel :)

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For the same reason the spouses and sex partners of Magic Johnson, Rock Hudson, Arthur Ashe and Liberace did not get AIDS. There is a possibility that AIDS is neither sexually transmitted nor caused by a virus. Thousands of doctors and scientists doubt the HIV causes AIDS hypothesis, and it has never been proven.

There are so many holes in the HIV causes AIDS theory, you could drive a truck through it. Prostitutes don't get AIDS, and neither do porn stars. Even proponents of the theory admit that it takes 1,000 sexual contacts to contract HIV, compared with 2 or 3 for other STDs. People with HIV are 50-50 between men and women, but AIDS cases are 90% male. AIDS has not spread into the general population, like all infectious diseases do. Nearly 30 years later, 99% of AIDS cases are gay men, IV drug users and hemophiliacs. HIV fails every one of Koch's postulates. HIV tests only test for antibodies, since HIV has NEVER been isolated in a human being. When HIV was announced as the "probable" (Dr. Gallo's word, not mine) cause of AIDS, it was said it would take 18 months to cause AIDS. Then it was 5 years, 10 years, now 15+ years. Is it not obvious that these jokers are buying time? Even Luc Montagnier, the co-discoverer of HIV, admits that it my just be a harmless retrovirus.

The CDC, who has a Monopoly on defining AIDS, constantly adds more diseases to the AIDS list, to change the rules when they turn out to be wrong. AIDS is not even a disease unto itself, but a loose confederation of existing ones.

AIDS is a multi-billion dollar a year industry, and it's just become a makework program for hack scientists and pharmaceutical companies who make billions in profits off poisonous failed cancer drugs.

An alternative theory is that AIDS is actually caused by drug use and malnutrition (the cause of "AIDS" in Africa), and that theory actually makes a lot of sense. Prolonged use of hard drugs, like heroin and cocaine, cause immune deficiency. So do nitrate inhalants, which are/were very popular among gay men. The first AIDS cases were gay men who not only averaged hundreds of partners per year, but abused hard drugs like they were candy. Then when they got sick, doctors blamed it on a virus. That would be like my grandmother blaming her lung cancer on a "slow virus", rather than smoking 2 packs a day for 40 years. AIDS can also be caused by AZT, chemo-in-a-pill that is prescribed to people with HIV, that kills one's t-cells and bone marrow. Arthur Ashe and Ryan White both died from AZT poisoning, not HIV.

I am not saying that I know everything, and I am not encouraging sexual irresponsibility. But I am saying that there is FAR more to AIDS than what you get on TV and the movies, and that it's important to see all sides of the story.

www.duesberg.com
www.reviewingaids.com
www.rethinkingaids.com

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Seriously?

AIDS is not some media conspiracy or whatever. And I should hope that most people don't know about what it is only from movies and TV.

I'm taking a class on the biochemistry of the HIV/AIDS virus right now. The difference between HIV and AIDS is the stage of the disease; the same virus is involved the whole time. There are certainly complications that would arise from drug use and malnutrition, but those don't create antibodies. Your story is frankly insulting to those living with HIV/AIDS.

Edit: I just looked this up and realized there's actually this marginal "community" in the loosest sense of the word that supports this completely baseless claim. It's akin to Intelligent Design, really. The CDC estimates that the South African government's previous embrace of this idea has led to tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths.

Wikipedia has a good article on AIDS denialism.
Also, these sites address the supposed problems presented by deniers:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v406/n6791/full/406015a0.html
http://www.sciencemag.org/feature/data/cohen/266-5191-1642a.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8902385
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10220906



Is there anything in the world sadder than a train standing in the rain?

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Hey guys, this may sound odd, but when do we hear about Andy having sex in a theater. Cause I just watched it today, and didn't see that part.

"I'm gonna quote the great Colonel Sanders..I'm to drunk to taste this chicken"
-Ricky Bobby.

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I never said that AIDS was any kind of conspiracy, nor do I think it so. I am saying that there is enough counter-evidence to show that HIV=AIDS is a flawed hypothesis.

Science and medicine have been wrong about millions of things before. When did they suddenly become immune to making mistakes? A fine example is scurvy. Scurvy occurred among sailors on ships, and doctors immediately tried to find a viral link to it. People who said it was caused by malnutrition were dismissed as flat-earthers, but it turned out that Scurvy is actually caused by Vitamin C deficiency. When sailors started brining limes on their boats, the scurvy went away. The same thing happened with the SMON disease in Japan. They thought it was caused by a virus, but it wasn't. There are no absolutes in science, it is not dogmatic. Copernicus and Galileo were both considered fringe for challenging old assumptions, but their progress is something we take for granted today.

AIDS "denialism" is a smear term, nothing more. Nobody thinks AIDS does not exist, but people have differing opinions as to what causes it.

AIDS in Africa is not diagnosed with tests, it is diagnosed by symptoms, most of which are those of old diseases that have existed in Africa for centuries. But malaria, tuberculosis, and diarrhea are not deemed worthy of billions of dollars in funding. Thabo Mbeki, the former president of South Africa, took plenty of heat from the US Government and from the media for his refusal to be a "good n-word". He did not want his people to be poisoned to death by failed American cancer drugs. If Africa is being ravaged by AIDS, then why does their population keep growing at a rate higher than anywhere else in the world? What Africa needs is clean drinking water, nutritious food, and access to decent medical care. And what do we give them? Condoms, poisonous drugs, and lectures telling them to stop their evil sexual ways (based on old racist Victorian premonitions).

The AIDS establishment is a complete and embarrassing failure. They have not saved one single life. And their only solution to anything is to dump more money into their bottomless pit. Drugs that have been hastily approved to treat AIDS are not the new miracle drugs they are touted as. AZT was a failed cancer drug that was rejected because it is too deadly for human usage, and it sat on the shelves for 20 years before it was approved to "treat" AIDS. New anti-retrovirals do the same thing, terminate DNA chains, which is deadly in and of itself. Vaccines to viruses are quite common today. That is how we defeated smallpox and polio. Yet nearly 30 years after the first AIDS cases, there is no vaccine in sight. HIV is a retrovirus, one of thousands of retroviruses in the human body, all of which do absolutely nothing. And again, Luc Montagnier, the man who discovered HIV, admits plainly that HIV itself is not sufficient to cause AIDS. When something fails as badly as HIV=AIDS, it is time to look into different hypotheses. I don't think that is a radical thought at all.

And for the record, you should not believe everything you hear from the government, in this case, the CDC and NIH. The government lies quite regularly. And they are not going to admit they were wrong overnight. Just a few months ago, the NIH quietly admitted that there will not be a heterosexual AIDS epidemic in America, despite all the BS hysteria they've thrown at us for years (along with bird flu will kill us all, mercury is good for you, etc.) More revelations of bad science are to come.

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Your post is really old, but I can't not say something as it sits on this board unchallenged.

For starters, I was very receptive to HIV/AIDS dissidence. After all, science still could not explain so much with this disease, and even certain things did not pan out or were controversial. (Heterosexual epidemic that never was, apoptosis hypothesis, NRTI monotherapy disasters, CDC changing the criteria for AIDS even though now people spring back to non-AIDS even without antiretrovirals.)

However, years of Deusberg being wrong, the Perth Group being a joke, and HIV-positive dissidents with progressively lowering CD4 counts with increasing viral loads that either have died of classic AIDS or getting better when they "cave" and take antiretrovirals, led me to never supporting any dissident belief.

Not to mention all of the mounds and mounds and mounds of peer reviewed data that shows the entire genome of the virus and how it replicates. Yes, we still don't know why non-infected T-cells die. (Pyroptosis is likely the forefront of some very important answers.) It's important to realize we don't know the etiology of many diseases yet they still exist. I never want to hear fallacies about Gallo being a crook, Montagnier in broken English saying, "the virus can be cleared in healthy systems" (as if that means he doesn't think HIV is real). I don't want to hear about "the virus has not been isolated or purified." It. Is. All. Rubbish.

As of last month, the fifteen-year-old AIDS-denying message board finally shut down, after years of poz members either dying of classic AIDS or going on antiretrovirals after declining health and then getting better, so hopefully dissidents will really finally go away for the most part. (I'd be a fool to think they'll all disappear.) Some of the questioners are quite bright and bring up many important issues, and I support their decision to not be quick to take the drugs if natural treatments are working. Heck, even doctors are realizing the mantra "drugs into bodies now" can do more harm than good.

However, when a poz person has a steady decline of T-cells and increased viral loads, it's time they be proactive in their health care and not die for some ideology. AIDS denialism is what needs to die.

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AIDS in Africa is not diagnosed with tests, it is diagnosed by symptoms, most of which are those of old diseases that have existed in Africa for centuries.


The Bangui criteria is a problem, no question, but it was never as rampant as you claimed in 2009. Fortunately, it has continued to be even less in use as real testing has become increasingly available, thank God. The truth is, AIDS in Africa is real. The malnutrition and poor sanitation continue to compound the problem. As well as, *gasp* a lack of antiretrovirals.

Mbeki's denialism killed upwards of 350,000 people in South Africa that deprived them of antiretrovirals during his presidency. His buddy, Duesberg and he have blood on their hands.

That is all.

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[deleted]

For the same reason the spouses and sex partners of Magic Johnson, Rock Hudson, Arthur Ashe and Liberace did not get AIDS.

It's already known that transmission is not as common as other STIs. Cookie had a 1,250 chance per act before MJ was diagnosed. Makes sense she dodged it. Same for Ashe's wife.
Rock Hudson and Liberace did have infected partners, so you're wrong.

[
Prostitutes don't get AIDS, and neither do porn stars.

They get infected with HIV, and many have progressed it AIDS. Seriously, look it up.

Even proponents of the theory admit that it takes 1,000 sexual contacts to contract HIV, compared with 2 or 3 for other STDs.

Yup, not as common as other STIs. It's true. However, your numbers are wrong. It varies with type of act and multiple other factors.

People with HIV are 50-50 between men and women, but AIDS cases are 90% male.

Don't quote Duesberg. He's wrong.

HIV tests only test for antibodies, since HIV has NEVER been isolated in a human being.

So are you a Duesbergian or a Perthian? The latter says it has not been isolated. It's garbage.

When HIV was announced as the "probable" (Dr. Gallo's word, not mine) cause of AIDS,

Yep, that's how it goes in science. It had been studied just twice at that point, so "probable" was as good as it could get then. How could you seriously cite 1984 studies and quotes?

it was said it would take 18 months to cause AIDS. Then it was 5 years, 10 years, now 15+ years. Is it not obvious that these jokers are buying time?

Dude, the disease was brand new. Fast track gay men dying soon in the first years made researchers mistakenly think that was the course, but as the healthier people lived longer, the time lengthened. There is no doubt early AIDS was different because KS was rampant (causing death sooner), fast track activities did also hurt the immune system more.

Did I mention the disease was still brand *beep* new?

Even Luc Montagnier, the co-discoverer of HIV, admits that it my just be a harmless retrovirus.

Yeah, in the 80s when he had just discovered it. Your old quotes and data are further hurting your credibility.

The CDC, who has a Monopoly on defining AIDS, constantly adds more diseases to the AIDS list, to change the rules when they turn out to be wrong. AIDS is not even a disease unto itself, but a loose confederation of existing ones.

Existing ones that are contracted because the immune system is toast thanks to a virus ruining it. If you can show HIV- patients who die of AIDS-related diseases, I'll show you patients who are immunocompromised from something else. HIV is just one of them.

AIDS is a multi-billion dollar a year industry, and it's just become a makework program for hack scientists and pharmaceutical companies who make billions in profits off poisonous failed cancer drugs.

Yawn. The old "AZT is bad, is a chemo drug, is a DNA chain terminator." Seriously, why are you dissidents always on about NRTIs when the newer drugs are relied upon? Yes, NRTIs are still used for some, but in combination with protease-inhibators, the treatments are effective. Not without their problems, but it's better than the alternative.

An alternative theory is that AIDS is actually caused by drug use and malnutrition (the cause of "AIDS" in Africa), and that theory actually makes a lot of sense. Prolonged use of hard drugs, like heroin and cocaine, cause immune deficiency. So do nitrate inhalants, which are/were very popular among gay men. The first AIDS cases were gay men who not only averaged hundreds of partners per year, but abused hard drugs like they were candy. Then when they got sick, doctors blamed it on a virus.

Yep, poppers are terrible for the lungs. Cocaine and heroin are very damaging. However, HIV- drug users are absolutely not prone to AIDS-related diseases as HIV+ people are. HIV+ non-drug users die of OTs. Seriously, you'd have more credibility spouting oxidative stress and semen intolerance ala Perth.

AZT, chemo-in-a-pill that is prescribed to people with HIV, that kills one's t-cells and bone marrow.

Oh God, here we go. Pre-AZT AIDS patients died of illicit drug use, AND AZT users just happen to die of the same immunosuppression-causing OTs! What are the odds?!
Explain non-drug using (of any kind) poz dissidents who have died in the last 15 years from OTs and it not being HIV=AIDS. Oh wait, you can't.
I am not saying that I know everything,

I don't know everything either, but I know you have cherry-picked info and are very misguided in your info.

www.duesberg.com
www.reviewingaids.com
www.rethinkingaids.com

You seriously put RA? Even by 2009 standards, what a joke! They and Duesberg have blood on their hands.

Seven years later, don't believe this BS, folks. It's dangerous and has killed thousands.

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Well i'm proud to say all of you are wrong Wrong Wrong .Andy got diagnosed with aids because he had .. brace yourselves....PNEUMONIA!!!! Watch the trailers that are on imdb. Andrew says it himself.

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Pneumonia is one of 30 AIDS-defining diseases. The list has been ever-expanding since 1984.

According to the CDC

Pneumonia + HIV antibodies = AIDS
Pneumonia - HIV antibodies = Pneumonia

Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?

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so ... what .. you saying i'm wrong? Cuz' he said it his self in the trailer. So LOOK AT IT!!!

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I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just stating the obvious.

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[deleted]

Well it was pretty obvious that he said he had an 8 month battle with pneumonia.No offense dude,but i KNOW what I'm talking about. Also . Don't take Offense or nothin' I'm just .... you know ...sayin'. and i obviosly need a life.

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One may also consider that if Andy told Miguel shortly after his cheating, Andy may have chosen to get a test done, or Miguel may have asked him to. Now, one could argue that, as stated in the movie, they weren't really sure what AIDs was back then, but he could've been screened for other STDs as well as AIDs (plus, the medical staff would presumably know to check for it). Obviously, we don't know how Miguel didn't contract it and anyone's guess is as good as another, so I'm just throwing this out there for consideration.

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Interestingly, Hanks also was in Forrest Gump, in which his wife Jenny had AIDS (or so it is implied) and he apparently did not get AIDS himself.

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[deleted]

Nope, the film made it very clear she died of AIDS. Towards the end of FG, when it happened, the story was situated in the 80s.



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Respectfully, you are spewing dangerous claptrap that has no basis in fact. Of course, it's quite true that HIV does not "equal" AIDS, but it is incontrevertible that HIV *CAUSES* AIDS. As for the "AIDS-defining diseases", I propose that you familiarize yourself with the aetilogy of AIDS before going off about stuff you clearly know nothing about.

The Human Immunodeficiency Virus attaches to CD4+ T helper cells, inserts itself into them, and proceeds to transcribe its genome into the cells' own genome (Google "HIV reverse transcriptase"). AZT - a reverse transcriptase inhibitor - blocks this crucial enzymatic step in viral replication. Combined with similar drugs, anti-retroviral therapy will reduce the HIV viral load to undetectable or nearly undetectable levels, allowing HIV+ individuals to live a more or less normal lifespan.

Untreated, though, HIV progressively decimates the body's population of CD4+ T helper cells. Without these crucial white blood cells, the body's cell-mediated immune system becomes progressively and severely compromised. Such impaired immune defences allow opportunistic infections to flourish (various types of pneumonia, such as PCP, along with oral thrush, cutaneous fungal infections, and TB) along with certain cancers (lymphoma, Kaposi's sarcoma, etc.). Of course, HIV is not the only cause of such immunodeficiency. To suggest that Duesberg's selective interpretations - which ultimately rely on some sort of conspiracy theory with a certain social bias - have any relevance to the current state of research or understanding is patently false, eminently refutable, and disingenuous in the extreme.

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If AZT allows one to live a more stable life, why is the mortality rate of those who take it five times higher than those who don't among those who are HIV positive? The leading cause of death among HIV positives is liver failure, which is not even an "AIDS defining disease" but a direct effect of anti-retroviral drugs.

This is an actual AZT label, the kind that lab technicians read before they feed the stuff to rats to test its toxicity. It's poison, plain and simple. http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/Azt%20label.jpg

Check a Physicians Desk Reference, and note that the side effects of AZT are INDISTINGUISHABLE from AIDS. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

T-cells infected with HIV in test tubes do not die, they grow and multiply and produce the antibodies, which is what HIV tests test for (not the virus itself, the test kit itself notes that there is no actual way to check for the virus). Chimpanzees infected with HIV have NOT developed AIDS.

When Bob Gallo claimed to prove that HIV caused AIDS, the virus could only be found in 26 of 72 patients he had studied. HIV is a retrovirus, and no retrovirus has ever been known to kill cells. That is why HIV is said to have almost magical powers. The scientific establishment will never let go of HIV, there's too much money involved.

And for the record, Duesberg's work is not based on conspiracy theories. The man is not a quack, he is a brilliant micro-biologist who was one of the most respected minds in the field before he was exiled from mainstream science because he dared to question the AID$ industry. Bob Gallo even called him the world's leading authority on retroviruses. Duesberg has made great advances in cancer research as well. What does he have to gain by questioning AIDS? He could just march with the crowd, and get the funding, but he's stuck by his guns. And nobody from the AIDS establishment will debate him. To denounce him as a conspiracy theorist is scientific laziness.

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jnonnenkamp...

Your arguments might begin to make a compelling case... until your ultimate rationale exposes itself. Ultimately, you are claiming that AIDS is a total myth and is being kept alive by greedy pharm companies.

The worldwide scientific community says that the HIV-to-AIDS connection is conclusive. Those who publicly dispute it are not experts in HIV or AIDS, some have had their medical licenses revoked, and most do not have the support of their colleagues or logical scientific evidence. Denialists cherry-pick evidence to build their case and use outdated medical data to support their claims. And, fittingly, many denialists infected with HIV have ultimately died because they didn't treat their AIDS.

And PS... Montagnier does NOT believe that HIV is a harmless retrovirus. Get your facts straight.

The truth is right there. But fools like yourself, for whatever reason, just don't want to believe it. That's your problem. Don't make it ours.

You, my friend, are just another conspiracy whack job.

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[deleted]

Not all pneumonia is an AIDS-defining illness. A particular kind of pneumonia, PCP, caused by Pneumocystis, is. Pneumocystis is a fungus that does not typically cause pneumonia in people that are not immune compromised.

Does this clarify the matter for you?

jnonnenkamp, you try to come across as really informed but there are many areas where you are either ignorant, ill informed, or just untruthful.

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