MovieChat Forums > In the Name of the Father (1994) Discussion > 'Not to be shown to the defense'

'Not to be shown to the defense'


Was it just me, or was it kind of a weak point in the script that the final break-through came only because the regular legal custodian had fallen ill and the Joe Blow who had been sent to fill in for him failed to realize the very obvious note saying "Not to be shown to the defense"?

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you maybe right, but, in the same breath I though the script was superb.

It's a given that some poetic license was used throughout...such as Guiseppe & Gerry sharing cells etc., the godfather/burning the guard scene...and the "not to be shown to the defense" scene but, let's face it. It wasn't a documentary. It was the story about a father and son...the backdrop could have just as easily been guentanamo bay or the second world war.

As an aside, I remember Jim Sheridan being challenged about the "not to be shown to the defense" scene in an interview and he openly acknowledged that certain elements were inserted or created to move the story forward.

The real-life end to the appeal - where the guildford 4 cases were dismissed - didn't have any dramatic elements they could work with, apparantly it all happened within a few minutes and was a formality, so they inserted the incident in the archive vaults and the lawyer dramatically revealing the handwritten note in court to add spice to the final scenes.

A weak point in the script...perhaps, but, compared to the amazing father/son story that was the at the heart of the film it's a minor weak spot if anything.

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IT WAS ANOTHER LIE IN A LONG LINE OF LIES IN THIS FILM !!!

jees guys read for yourselves will you ?

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rice-1, youre obsession with the inaccuracies of this movie is bordering on the insane... you either 1) need to get out more or 2) need to put your knowledge on thie intricacies of this story to better use elsewhere.

You just come across as a loser.

http://SaskatchewanStu.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/bangojuice

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you would say that though wouldnt you !


no, I am happy to focus on the innacuracies of this film in particular because

A - too many gullible folk have bought into this hollywood fairytale

B - it is presented as fact

C - it is patently anti British

D - it does little to foster the current peace process, with its black and white pantomime baddies.

I really do enjoy posting on this particular film and pointing out the huge failings in it and those who buy itno it.

I could just as easiy say much the same about -

The Patriot
Some Mothers Son etc...... however, I do have an important job to attend to as well.

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you sound like a man with a very important job alright... id say people know who you are and you have a library with many leather bound books...

but anyway,

A) for gods sake, we get it, their are a couple of inaccuracies in the movie - which the Guildford 4 themselves pointed out. They've come to terms with it so maybe you should too...

B) the basic story is fact. Innocent people were imprisoned by the British justice system with the barest of real evidence to back up the conviction. That stinks and deserves to be written about.

C) the majority of the world is patently anti-british. And often times with good cause. Get over it.

D) the movie was made back in the 90's and since then the peace process has gone from strength to strength. Do you really think there are people involved in the peace process, who can make it or break it, that firstly havent already seen this movie and secondly would really let the movie itself, as a movie, interfere with their role in the peace process?

your justification for the amount of posts you clog cyberspace with is ridiculous.

Good luck to you.

http://SaskatchewanStu.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/bangojuice

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I should imagine the US Justice System could learn more valuable lessons from films such as -

Muder on a Sunday Morning - http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/murder_sunday/

Fourteen Days in May - http://ftvdb.bfi.org.uk/sift/title/416995

The Hurricane - The Story of Boxer Rubin 'Hurricane' Carter' who was wrongly imprisoned - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0174856/

The Thin Blue Line (1988) - The true story of Randall Dale Adams, who was wrongly convicted of murdering Dallas, Texas police officer Robert Wood. -http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0174856/

The Innocent Man - John Grisham's True Story of a US Miscarriage of Justice (which is to be made in to a film) - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/09/books/09masl.html?fta=y

Also recent cases such as that of Kenny Richey which also highlighted inadequacies within the US Justice System - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7185719.stm

At least the Guildford Four survived their ordeal, in some countries they would have faced execution.

The American Government has sanctioned blatant torture such as water boarding only recently at Guantanamo Bay. Whilst hundreds have been detatined without even being given a trial, contrary to international law.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/08/AR2008 020802440.html

Perhaps Americans should consider this carefully, before casting any stones at others.

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It is rather hypocritical of Americans to take any moral high ground on issues of human rights, they have one of the worst human rights records in the western world today.

From the Genocide of American Indians, to the appalling treatment of the black population over the decades.

At the time of the Guildford Bombs America was still involved in the Vietnam War, with napalming of villages, massacre of the civilian villagers (the My Lai Massacre) and mass bombings. America dropped more bombs on Vietnam and Cambodia than were dropped in the whole of WW2. There were constant protests at the time outside the American Embassy in London during this period.

The My Lai Massacre occurred ahortly before Guildford in 1968.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai

The Native American Indian Genocide -

http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/native-americans.html

Hitlers Debt to America -

The Nazis' extermination programme was carried out in the name of eugenics - but they were by no means the only advocates of racial purification. In this extract from his extraordinary new book, Edwin Black describes how Adolf Hitler's race hatred was underpinned by the work of American eugenicists

http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/offSiteArchive/HitlerDebtToAmerica.ht ml

Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power. The repercussions of events that culminated in action under the Trading with the Enemy Act are still being felt by today's president

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

Lets also not forget a frequently overlooked aspect of Irish history. In the aftermath of the Second World War, the country provided safe haven to a number of Nazi collaborators and war criminals. Protected by church and state, many made their homes in Ireland, or used it as a staging point for escape.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyrOw5x5Hn0

Any one thoughts to be a terrorist or muslim radical today is hauled off to an American Prison Camp at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, where torture such as waterboaring, sleep deprivation and lots of other psychological methods are used. Contrary to International Law those held have been denied due process and are deemed Enemy Combatants, a term made up by Americans to get around the Geneva Convention.

If these men were labelled Prisoners of War they would have much more rights, as so called Enemy Combatants (an American term not even recognised by the Geneva Convention) they have few rights.

The current Bush administration has also labelled the Geneva Convention as irrelevant.

So for Americans to come here and preach about human rights is ridiculous, where were the rights of those massacred in Haditha by US Marines in 2005.

The Haditha Massacre 2005.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings

The film 'In the Name of the Father' and the actual events that took place are very different, and to be honest it must be difficult for the families of those killed in the bombings or of soldier Brian Shaw's family to see such a perverse potryal of events as depicted in this film.

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History no obstacle for Hollywood - In the Name of the Father - Fair Comment
Insight on the News
by Richard Grenier

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_n12_v10/ai_15235108

Among the most nominated movies for an Academy Award -- after Holocaust-inspired Schindler's List -- is In the Name of the Father, a film bristling with Irish politics and the Irish Republican Army. Were the nominations for In the Name of the Father perhaps influenced by the fact that its heroes, "the Guildford Four," include Paul Hill, a nephew by marriage of Sen. Ted Kennedy and his sister Jean Kennedy Smith, our ambassador to Dublin? Hill is to I have heard on appeal in Belfast his conviction for abduction and murder of a former British soldier -- an event entirely separate from the Guildford incident. But the point is, In the Name of the Father doesn't appeal to an Irish-American constituency so much as a moral constituency.

In our time the sacred mission of journalists, academics and the arts is to struggle against injustice. The complacent assumption -- most silly when we get to Hollywood -- is that these people are able to determine, first, precisely what's unjust and, more important, precisely what to do about it. But the thirst for justice is so strong that these people will struggle against injustice even when there might be no injustice to start. I offer you the Guildford Four.

This is no minor legal squabble, but one of the longest and most bitterly contested chapters in the annals of British justice. In 1974, the IRA, all puffed up with new Libyan support, committed a series of pub bombings in England which left 40 innocent people dead, hundreds wounded and produced a national uproar. The first of these pub bombings occurred at Guildford. The Guildford Four, including the Kennedy nephew, were convicted in relation to this incident and received long prison sentences.

But the Guildford Four later won their freedom on what many believe to be a technicality -- mainly that the notes of their interrogation were not "contemporaneous" and that their guilty verdict was consequently "unsafe." Then the three detectives who had conducted the interrogation of the Guildford Four were put on trial, and they, too, were found not guilty. So, both sides were not guilty.

One of the Guildford Four, Gerry Conlon, wrote a book; director Jim Sheridan (of My Left Foot fame) used the book as the basis for In the Name of the Father, at which point we say farewell forever to the historical record.

Sheridan says he wanted to make a movie like the Hollywood historical films of the 1930s -- not accurate in detail, you understand, but true to the spirit of the events. On that score, one can only say that the man is as good as his word. Aside from the fact that Gerry Conlon (played by Daniel Day-Lewis) and the other Guildford Four are real people, it's difficult to locate a a single historical fact in the movie. The British press has called the film "a farrago of rubbish."

The wicked Inspector Dixon, who falsifies evidence against the Guildford Four, is fictitious. The wicked IRA operative Joe McAndrew also is fictitious. Conlon's solicitor Gareth Pierce (played by Emma Thompson) is 90 percent fictitious, and the rousing speech she delivers at the Old Bailey is a complete invention. (Solicitors do not plead at the bar in Britain. Such people are called "barristers.")

Conlon's alibi -- that he was robbing a prostitute's flat the night of the bombing -- is less than perfect. In real life, he didn't rob the prostitute's flat until 10 days later In the movie, Conlon and his father share the same prison cell, but in real life not only did they not share the same prison cell, they were rarely in prison.

But the key to the Guildford Four's movie appeal is that the prosecution withheld evidence from the defense. In fact, it did no such thing. The prosecution communicated all evidence to the defense exactly as it should have. Need I go on?

"Never let the facts get in the way of a good story," say Hollywood cynics. But the people who made In the Name of the Father aren't cynics. Indeed, they present themselves as highly moral. But this much lying is unusual on the part of people who excoriate other people for lying.

In the world of Barbra Streisand, a righteous moral tone is all. Hollywood bravely condemns Hitler's death camps 50 years after the fact. And the feeling of righteous condemnation is so intoxicating that Hollywood is proceeding to condemn moral outrages that might never even have happened. Surely, greater love of righteousness hath no man.

Respected Historian Robert Kee complains, however, that Jim Sheridan's film is "in parts a farrago of rubbish." He notes, for example, that in the film the missing alibi which prosecutors suppressed was .that of a homeless man Conlon met on a park bench, while in reality the alibi came from an assistant manager of a fruit and vegetable shop who saw Conlon on the night of the bombing. The dramatic license, according to Kee, was motivated by the filmmaker's desire for an outdoor scene, and presumably because a conversation with a homeless man is more dramatic than the testimony of a vegetable peddler. Even more serious distortions of the legal drama ultimately undermine, Kee argues, the credibility of a film which is about the suppression of truth. Kee was one of the first to expose publicly the injustices inflicted on the Guildford Four, and has lambasted the film for telling 'so many lies that it makes its central proposition about a miscarriage of justice questionable,' and of doing 'the work of those who may wish to prevent any more of the truth emerging'. Criticisms of the inaccuracies have also been raised by several of the Maguire Seven themselves.

The film also seemed to use dramatic license when it came to the somewhat distorted police interrogations, and the actual events which took place which are also the subject of dispute. The Court of Appeal even stated "that they believed many of Mr Hill's allegations of ill-treatment were untrue".

Although this didn't stop the film showing the police as little more than torturers. Perhaps this is hardly surprising given that it was later revealed that the films Co-Writer Terry George had served a jail sentence after being arrested in a car with an Irish National Liberation Army member in 1975.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_n8_v111/ai_14900054

The Mcguire Seven

The evidence against the Mcguire Seven was based on a thin layer chromatography tests, carried out at the Royal Armament Research and Development Establishment, which seemed to show that they had handled nitroglycerine. In fact Scientists at the 1976 trial said that they had been 'kneading' nitroglycerine.

An RARDE scientist told the May Inquiry (an inquiry in to the case) of the excitement. 'Never before had we seen so many positives on a plate at a reasonably high level of intensity. We just did not believe it . . .'

The evidence given to the Court of Appeal by the May Inquiry, led to four separate areas of doubt relating to the forensic explosive evidence.

First the thin layer chromatography test could also produce a positive result for another substance PETN, which was not then used by the IRA as an explosive (it is used in Semtex, which was then used by terrorists from the Middle East). The prosecution said that the test was unique for nitroglycerine, and that it could be distinguished from PETN by its rate of colour development. When the May inquiry examined the scientists' notebooks in 1990, it found that RARDE was very interested in PETN and that it knew 'throughout the trial that PETN was potentially confusable' with nitroglycerine.

The original trial was also told that second tests on samples from the Maguires was neither practicable or necessary. In fact follow-up tests were carried out to detect nitrotoluenes, which are typical explosives. They were all negative. The RARDE scientists failed to mention these tests at the original trial. The May report adds: 'Even then, when they first gave evidence to me, they did not tell me of the second tests.' Although as the test was deemed neither practicable or necessary, they may have also been deemed not Court worthy. Also the test for nitrotoluenes does not make the intial chromatography test any less valid.

Tests carried out for the May inquiry proved that the Maguires could have been innocently contaminated if, for example, they wiped their hands on a previously contaminated towel. This theory depended on the towel originally having been used by someone who had been handling explosives. No towel from the Maguire household was ever tested at the time.

After the inquiry's interim report, the Maguire case was sent to the appeal court. The appeal court overturned the convictions, but only on the third ground, leaving the possibility that someone who visited the household had been handling explosives.

As the May inquiry progressed it emerged that some test kits produced by RARDE for police to take samples from suspects had ether contaminated with explosives. Of course the difficulty in avoiding contamination must be considerable: RARDE not only makes test kits and carries out forensic tests on explosives, it also makes explosives on the same sites. Nevertheless a strict system of controls, using ether from the same batch in a blank comparison test, should have shown up the contamination. Whether these contaminated test kits were used on the Maguires is unknown.


This was not some conspiracy, the problem lay in the fact that traces of explosives were found on the hands (and rubber gloves) of many of the accused (the Mcguires). This is what Forensic Experts concluded at the time. It's questionable if any of the Mcguires or the Guildford Four would have been sent to prison without this forensic evidence showing bomb making activity in the Mcguire household (the Mcguires being relatives of the Conlons). The validity of the tests is now in hindsight questionable, but at the time police and officials did not have reason to question the work of the leading explosive experts from RARDE. This is the real evidence that led to the miscarriages of justice, this evidence was utterly damming at the time. It also should be noted that when the Court of Appeal dismissed the cases, it did so on the premise that somebody visiting the house may have used explosives rather than the Mcguires, which is hardly the ringing endorsement of absoloute innocence the film potrays.

It also should be noted that there was no Inspector Dixon, this charachter was ficticious, as were the conversations between Conlons solicitor and the ficticious Inspector Dixon or Government Officials and Inspector Dixon. There was no records officer off sick, and there was no tramp or park bench (ficticious and made up for the film), and the prostitute robbery recounted in the film occurred ten days after the Guildford Bombs, so was not a useful alibi, as the film seemed to imply.

During the trial of the Balcombe Street gang in February 1977 the four IRA men instructed their lawyers to "draw attention to the fact that four totally innocent people were serving sentences for three bombings in Woolwich and Guildford". They were never charged with these offences. However, no evidence has ever been presented that proves the involvement of the four men, they never actually admitted any personal responsibility, and the IRA never identified the true perpetrators of the attack. It should be noted that it was the IRA who originally implicated the four, and that the IRA would have killed Hill if they had had managed to get to him whilst he was in Southampton (he had stolen weapoms from them and was believed to be an informant). Also the forensic explosive evidence suggested that the convictions were safe, and that the Balcombe Street Gang could be trying to free fellow terrorists, believed to be an active IRA service Unit. However if the Balcombe Street gang had admitted to the bombings and provided some evidence to back up their assertions, then the Guildford Four and Mcguires would have undoubtedly been released (despite the damming forensic evidence) but they didn't at the time and have never done so. Apart from some vague statement the Balcombe Street Gang had given to their lawyers there was little else to base an appeal upon at the time, and certainly no new evidence.

Finally the Court of Appeal (Criminal) is seperate from Government and the legislative. The Court consists of an Independent Group of Judges and legal experts that looked at the evidence according to the Law and from a purely independent judicial viewpoint. These cases mainly collapsed due to the possibility of cross contamination of forensics rather than any dramatic events.

http://www.criminal-information-agency.com/article.php?article=59

Whilst I have every sympathy for Conlon (and his father Gusieppe) and the other innocent people imprisoned. I have just as much, if not even more sympathy for the families of the 40 people killed and the hundreds who were badly injured in the bombings at the time. The city centre pub bombing in Birmingham, Guildford and Woolwich and those left dying on the side (including children) of the road after the M62 Coach bombing.

Furthermore I have every sympathy for the family of Brian Shaw, a soldier who left the army and married a girl from Belfast. Shaw was kidnapped by the IRA, tortured, tried by an IRA Court and then executed. Malcolm Shaw (a Church Minister) and brother of Brian Shaw remains convinced that Paul Hill played a central role in his brothers murder. As Brian Shaws widow Maureen Hall said of Hill's release - "We have to live with this decision, but we do not have to agree with it".

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(in reply to therealdiscotu above)

spoken like someone whose knowledge of 'The Troubles' comes from watching Hollywood films and therefore proving my point of the effect of the relentless bias and untruths; and ironically proving the necessesity for challenge to such propaganda as this film.

by the way to those who doubt that the film world is biased in the coverage of The Troubles....can you name any films which show the IRA in a bad light or conversely show the efforst of the brave men of the police and armed serices who defeated them ?

Where is the film depicting Capt Niarac or the successful operation which stopped the potential Gibraltar slaughter 'on the Rock' if it had been the other way round I am sure old DDL would be topping the cast list.

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In The Name of The Father shows the IRA in a good light? Funny because I saw a scene where an IRA bomber threatened to blow up someone's innocent family, another in which he set fire to a guard and he also admitted to blowing up a pub full of people.

And those brave soldiers were indeed brave, but think how jingoistic a film about how great a job the black and tans did would be. "Well done, men. We just slaughtered a crowd of people." Heroic.

I'd like to see your screenplay of a film about how us English oppressed a country for hundreds of years and came off as heroes. I wonder how hypocritical it would be.

Last Film Seen: Nausicaä Of The Valley Of The Wind

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I didnt say ITNOTF showed the IRA in a good light, please re read the post.

I DID say can you name a film which shows them as the 'enemy' or in a bad light. ITNOTF showed the IRA man who came into the prison later as a 'cool calm professional killer' a masturbatory scene for the 'faithfull'.

Yes he was shown setting a prison officer on fire - but did you notice they made a point of 'justifying ' it by being careful to show that officer as a 'bad chap' beforehand.

Depictions of the IRA are always careful not to show the IRA doing anything bad.

In Patriot Games, the 'IRA' gang which is murdering people in America, is carefully pointed out to be a 'breakaway group'.

Still waiting for that example of a film showing the battle against the IRA and terrorism from the other side.....???

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Hello rice-1
You seem to be very interested in ‘the name of the father’. I know it is a film which is edited and staged and tells only a few selected things about each of the characters.

I also know that the news and newspapers are ALSO very ones sided and is also edited and selected and decides how to tell a ‘story’.

You look at something and should always questions it and NOT believe it – like a sheep!

You can never get the truth from a news or a paper or a film, you simply have to get info from different places and then try and then decide.

Basically there is no media that tells the truth! It always gonna be one sided/ subjective.

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i disagree that they showed the prison officer as a bad chap.infact it was quite the opposite.

at the end of the day four innocent people were imprisoned for crimes that they did not commit.that is a fact.in the name of a father is a film.films are usually produced for entertaiment purposes.

and if any1 thinks the police do not torture suspects then they must be really naive.

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I am not convinced Paul Hill was wholly innocent (Brian Shaws family are also not convinced), as for the McGuires the Court of Appeal ruled that the nitroglycerine might have been caused through cross contamination, someone who had been handling notroglycerine/explosives using a towel which was used by the rest of the family. This is hardly the resounding innocents that the film potrays.

As for the Prison Officer it was all fiction, the attack, Joe McAndrews, even Gerry and his father being together in prison, and to my problem is not with the acting or indeed how certain ficticious charachters were potrayed, but that they were ficticious in the first place. A film which is about supposed lies and suppression of the truth is nothing more that one than a succesion of fiction and lies itself. Sadly the film is seen as true by many people, as it is suppose to be potraying real events. If the film had been based on a ficticious event then there would have been no problem, but it wasn't, it was centred around events which caused a lot of emotion in both the England and Ireland at the time.

The simple truth is that those who campaigned on behalf of the Guildford Four and even some of the Mcguire family themselves were unhappy with the way the film distorted actual events.

Respected Historian Robert Kee complains, however, that Jim Sheridan's film is "in parts a farrago of rubbish." That as well as many of the charachters and events being ficticious there were serious distortions of the legal drama which ultimately undermine, Kee argues, the credibility of a film which is about the suppression of truth.

Kee was one of the first to expose publicly the injustices inflicted on the Guildford Four, and has lambasted the film for telling 'so many lies that it makes its central proposition about a miscarriage of justice questionable,' and of doing 'the work of those who may wish to prevent any more of the truth emerging'. Criticisms of the inaccuracies have also been raised by several of the Maguire Seven themselves.

The film also seemed to use dramatic license when it came to the somewhat distorted police interrogations, and the actual events which took place which are also the subject of dispute. The Court of Appeal even stated "that they believed many of Mr Hill's allegations of ill-treatment were untrue".


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[deleted]

You're right - there are NO films about the Blitz.

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[deleted]

thats perfectly fine rice-1 but this is not a story about people in the IRA - it is a story of 4 young slackers whose lives were ruined by shoddy police work and scapegoating.

If they made a movie about what happened on the Rock i think the story of how the three IRA heads were shot in the back by the SAS would make for a better movie... ;)

my knowledge of "the troubles" by the way comes from living most of my life in Ireland and having relatives involved heavily in "the Troubles".

http://SaskatchewanStu.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/bangojuice

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The reality is somewhat different to the film:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_n12_v10/ai_15235108

Respected Historian Robert Kee complains that Jim Sheridan's film is "in parts a farrago of rubbish." He notes, for example, that in the film the missing alibi which prosecutors suppressed was .that of a homeless man Conlon met on a park bench, while in reality the alibi came from an assistant manager of a fruit and vegetable shop who claimed he saw Conlon on the night of the bombing. The dramatic license, according to Kee, was motivated by the filmmaker's desire for an outdoor scene, and presumably because a conversation with a homeless man is more dramatic than the testimony of a vegetable peddler. Even more serious distortions of the legal drama ultimately undermine, Kee argues, the credibility of a film which is about the suppression of truth. Kee was one of the first to expose publicly the injustices inflicted on the Guildford Four, and has lambasted the film for telling 'so many lies that it makes its central proposition about a miscarriage of justice questionable,' and of doing 'the work of those who may wish to prevent any more of the truth emerging'. Criticisms of the inaccuracies have also been raised by several of the Maguire Seven themselves.

The film also seemed to use dramatic license when it came to the somewhat distorted police interrogations, and the actual events which took place which are also the subject of dispute. The Court of Appeal even stated "that they believed many of Mr Hill's allegations of ill-treatment were untrue".

Although this didn't stop the film showing the police as little more than torturers. Perhaps this is hardly surprising given that it was later revealed that the films Co-Writer Terry George had served a jail sentence after being arrested in a car with an Irish National Liberation Army member in 1975.

The wicked Inspector Dixon, who falsifies evidence against the Guildford Four, is fictitious. The wicked IRA operative Joe McAndrew also is fictitious. Conlon's solicitor Gareth Pierce (played by Emma Thompson) is 90 percent fictitious, and the rousing speech she delivers at the Old Bailey is a complete invention. (Solicitors do not plead at the bar in Britain. Such people are called "barristers.")

Conlon's alibi -- that he was robbing a prostitute's flat the night of the bombing -- is less than perfect. In real life, he didn't rob the prostitute's flat until 10 days later. In the movie, Conlon and his father share the same prison cell, but in real life not only did they not share the same prison cell, they did not share the same trial.

"Never let the facts get in the way of a good story," say Hollywood cynics. But the people who made In the Name of the Father aren't cynics. Indeed, they present themselves as highly moral. But this much lying is unusual on the part of people who excoriate other people for lying.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_n8_v111/ai_14900054

A tip off from Belfast named Hill as one of the Guildford Four, it was during subsequent questioning that Hill told of his friendship with Armstrong and Conlon. This led to there arrests and the search of the Mcguire household and subsequent discovery of significant traces of nitoglycerine (and the Mcguire Seven Case).

Hill according to Bishop and Malle in their book 'The Provincial IRA' (regarded as an extremely accurate and well researched work) was a member of the Belfast Brigade of the IRA, but had fallen out with the IRA after stealing weapons and the IRA had reason to believe he was also an informant (for which the penalty was death).

During one incident Hill took an Armalite rifle from an IRA arms cache, but ran into an army patrol and, after exchanging a few shots, dropped the gun. The IRA seems to have been suspicious of this story; they thought that Hill may have given the gun to the army, and that he could even be an informer. What ever the exact circumstances, Hill seems to have been in some trouble: wanted by the security services for his role in the Shaw affair (murder of Ex-British Soldier Brian Shaw), and, according to one former intelligence officer, 'in bad odour with the Provisionals'. He fled to England, where he kept his head down. During the week he worked on building sites; the weekends he spent with Gina Clarke (his Girlfriend at the time) in Southampton. Hill later claimed that he only confessed so that Gina Clarke, who was pregnant with their child at the time, would be released.

It is believed the IRA were the ones who tipped off police about Hill after the Guildford bombings. As well as the damming confessions and forensics, police also produced witnesses from the pub who vaguely remembered a strange man and two woman at the pub on the night of the bombings, who the police believed were Armstrong and Richardson, and another untraced woman. It was believed the second pub bomb was planted by Gerry Conlon while Paul Hill kept a lookout.

A further witness for the prosecution was Brian McLoughlin, who had lived in the squat with Armstrong and Richardson. McLoughlin testified that Armstrong was always talking about bombings, and had once invited him to "do a pub". He said that altogether he had taken in about twenty parcels for Armstrong. He had once opened one himself, and found it to contain two guns and once, he had seen Armstrong opening one containing cartridges.

It should be noted there was no CCTV at the time, no DNA at the time and few witness accounts, the police were under tremendous strain to produce results and violence had errupted in Birmingham aimed at the 100,000 strong Irish Community there. Fighting broke out between Irish and English workers on the car production line at British Leyland in Birmingham, a Catholic School was burnt down and there were other such episodes.

The planting of bombs in Birmingham (Englands Second largest City) was the equivalent of going in to a crowded bar full of young people and students in the city centre (downtown) of Boston or Philadelphia and exploding bombs. The carnage was unbelievable, and emotions were obviously high. Coupled with other bombings at the time, including the M62 Coach bomb and Guildford there was now 40 innocent people dead, including two young children in the M62 bomb, and many hundreds terrible injured and maimed for life.

It was under this atmosphere that the police launched their investigations.

As well as the Confessions and the witness testimonies, there was also significant forensic evidence found in relation to the Mcguires:


The Mcguire Seven:

The evidence against the Mcguire Seven was based on a thin layer chromatography tests, carried out at the Royal Armament Research and Development Establishment, which seemed to show that they had handled nitroglycerine. In fact Scientists at the 1976 trial said that they had been 'kneading' nitroglycerine.

An RARDE scientist told the May Inquiry (an inquiry in to the case) of the excitement. 'Never before had we seen so many positives on a plate at a reasonably high level of intensity. We just did not believe it . . .'

The evidence given to the Court of Appeal by the May Inquiry, led to four separate areas of doubt relating to the forensic explosive evidence.

First the thin layer chromatography test could also produce a positive result for another substance PETN, which was not then used by the IRA as an explosive (it is used in Semtex, which was then used by terrorists from the Middle East). The prosecution said that the test was unique for nitroglycerine, and that it could be distinguished from PETN by its rate of colour development. When the May inquiry examined the scientists' notebooks in 1990, it found that RARDE was very interested in PETN and that it knew 'throughout the trial that PETN was potentially confusable' with nitroglycerine.

The original trial was also told that second tests on samples from the Maguires was neither practicable or necessary. In fact follow-up tests were carried out to detect nitrotoluenes, which are typical explosives. They were all negative. The RARDE scientists failed to mention these tests at the original trial. The May report adds: 'Even then, when they first gave evidence to me, they did not tell me of the second tests.' Although as the test was deemed neither practicable or necessary, they may have also been deemed not Court worthy. Also the test for nitrotoluenes does not make the intial chromatography test any less valid.

Tests carried out for the May inquiry proved that the Maguires could have been innocently contaminated if, for example, they wiped their hands on a previously contaminated towel. This theory depended on the towel originally having been used by someone who had been handling explosives. No towel from the Maguire household was ever tested at the time.

After the inquiry's interim report, the Maguire case was sent to the appeal court. The appeal court overturned the convictions, but only on the third ground, leaving the possibility that someone who visited the household had been handling explosives.

As the May inquiry progressed it emerged that some test kits produced by RARDE for police to take samples from suspects had ether contaminated with explosives. Of course the difficulty in avoiding contamination must be considerable: RARDE not only makes test kits and carries out forensic tests on explosives, it also makes explosives on the same sites. Nevertheless a strict system of controls, using either from the same batch in a blank comparison test, should have shown up the contamination. Whether these contaminated test kits were used on the Maguires is unknown.


This was not some conspiracy, the problem lay in the fact that traces of explosives were found on the hands (and rubber gloves) of many of the accused (the Mcguires). This is what Forensic Experts concluded at the time. It's questionable if any of the Mcguires or the Guildford Four would have been sent to prison without this forensic evidence showing bomb making activity in the Mcguire household (the Mcguires being relatives of the Conlons). The validity of the tests is now in hindsight questionable, but at the time police and officials did not have reason to question the work of the leading explosive experts from RARDE. This is the real evidence that led to the miscarriages of justice, this evidence was utterly damming at the time. It also should be noted that when the Court of Appeal dismissed the cases, it did so on the premise that their were explosive traces but this may be due to a visit to the Mcguire household rather than the Mcguires themselves, which is hardly the ringing endorsement of absoloute innocence the film potrays.

As noted earlier there was no Inspector Dixon, this charachter was ficticious, as were the conversations between Conlons solicitor and the ficticious Inspector Dixon or Government Officials and Inspector Dixon. There was no records officer off sick, and there was no tramp or park bench (ficticious and made up for the film), and the prostitute robbery recounted in the film occurred ten days after the Guildford Bombs, so was not a useful alibi, as the film seemed to imply.

The key to the Guildford Four's movie appeal is that the prosecution withheld evidence from the defense. In fact, it did no such thing. The prosecution communicated all evidence to the defence exactly as it should have.

The Mcguire Seven and Guildfour Four cases were two seperate court cases, not one as shown in the film, and Paul Hill was serving a life sentence already for the murder of Brian Shaw when the 'Guildford Court Case' proceedings started at the Old Bailey in London. Gusieppe Conlon and Gerry Conlon were never together in prison or on remand as shown in the film, and like the rest of the film much of the prison scenes are pure fiction.

During the trial of the Balcombe Street gang in February 1977 the four IRA men instructed their lawyers to "draw attention to the fact that four totally innocent people were serving sentences for three bombings in Woolwich and Guildford". They were never charged with these offences. However, no evidence has ever been presented that proves the involvement of the four men, they never actually admitted any personal responsibility, and the IRA never identified the true perpetrators of the attack. It should be noted that it was the IRA who originally implicated the four, and that the IRA would have killed Hill if they had had managed to get to him whilst he was in Southampton (he had stolen weapons from them and was believed to be an informant). Also the forensic explosive evidence suggested that the convictions were safe, and that the Balcombe Street Gang could be trying to free fellow terrorists, believed to be an active IRA service Unit. However if the Balcombe Street gang had admitted to the bombings and provided some evidence to back up their assertions, then the Guildford Four and Mcguires would have undoubtedly been released (despite the damming forensic evidence) but they didn't at the time and have never done so. Apart from some vague statement the Balcombe Street Gang had given to their lawyers there was little else to base an appeal upon at the time, and certainly no new evidence.

Finally the Court of Appeal (Criminal) is seperate from Government and the legislative. The Court consists of an Independent Group of Judges and legal experts that looked at the evidence according to the Law and from a purely independent judicial viewpoint. These cases mainly collapsed due to the possibility of cross contamination of forensics rather than any dramatic events.

http://www.criminal-information-agency.com/article.php?article=59

Whilst I have every sympathy for Gerry Conlon (and his father Gusieppe) and the other innocent people imprisoned. I have just as much, if not even more sympathy for the families of the 40 people killed and the hundreds who were badly injured in the bombings at the time. The city centre pub bombing in Birmingham, Guildford and Woolwich and those left dying on the side (including children) of the road after the M62 Coach bombing.

Furthermore I have every sympathy for the family of Brian Shaw, a soldier who left the army and married a girl from Belfast. Shaw was kidnapped by the IRA, tortured, tried by an IRA Court and then executed. Malcolm Shaw (a Church Minister) and brother of Brian Shaw remains convinced that Paul Hill played a central role in his brothers murder. As Brian Shaws widow Maureen Hall said of Hill's release - "We have to live with this decision, but we do not have to agree with it".

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As for the Guildford Pubs.

The Horse and Groom on North Street is now a Furniture Shop called LomBok.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/148/369965385_8b7933c75f_b.jpg

It was 'The Horse and Groom' Pub now LomBok Furniture Shop where all the deaths and injuries took place in the 1974 bombings. The Seven Stars was evacuated after the first blast at the 'The Horse and Groom', so nobody was seriously hurt in the explosion there at 9.00 p.m.

Guildford's Queen Elizabeth Barracks (the only Barracks in Guildford) were at Soughton, and were home to the Womens Royal Army Corp, consequently many of those injured, maimed and killed were teenage women Soldiers. The barracks have since closed.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20020311/ai_n12605896

Guildford:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/92/247419441_f106b62e80_b.jpg



Two Women linked to Pub blast

Click on this link for Photofits of the two women seen by witnesses in the pubs.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3270/1850/320/ira.jpg

October 1974

One wonders if it's even possible to go to one's local for a quiet pint lately. These are the faces of two girls police want to interview following the Guildford terror bomb attacks on Saturday night (5-10-74). The Photo-Fit pictures have been built up from witnesses descriptions of two girls sitting in the alcove at the Horse and Groom pub where a bomb exploded killing five people, and also at the Seven Stars, scene of another bombing. The two girls are said to be the odd ones out among Women’s Royal Army Corps girls who were at the pubs and all knew each other. One girl was 5ft 6ins tall, with long blonde hair – possibly dyed. She was very heavily made-up and wearing a light-coloured jacket. The other girl was 5ft 8ins, with long dark hair. She was wearing a sweater with coloured stripes.


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it was,nt shown to the defense because it would,ve exonorated the four it was a british govt. that hated the irish with a passion. that wanted the guilford four imprisoned.

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[deleted]

This is all very interesting, but I feel compelled to interject the following:

These people WERE all falsely imprisoned, correct?

The credits of the film clearly say "BASED on" Proven Innocent by Gerry Conlon.

As an intelligent person, I saw the movie, liked it and then because the story was interesting to me, read some more about it.

Since when are Hollywood films required to be documentaries?

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rice-1 wrote:

"spoken like someone whose knowledge of 'The Troubles' comes from watching Hollywood films and therefore proving my point of the effect of the relentless bias and untruths; and ironically proving the necessesity for challenge to such propaganda as this film.

by the way to those who doubt that the film world is biased in the coverage of The Troubles....can you name any films which show the IRA in a bad light or conversely show the efforst of the brave men of the police and armed serices who defeated them ?"

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Films about Northern Ireland tend to touch The Troubles some way or another, but I really would say it's only specific sort of films *based* on actual events that take the viewpoint of IRA men being "victimised" by the British authorities. And they take that viewpoint from the thinking that the original thought behind IRA activity was in fact to chase out an occupying force. So why would they villanise the IRA if the viewpoint is already on their side? In artistic endeavour it makes as much sense as shooting your foot off and wearing it as a hat. But this is only a percentage of films about The Troubles.

A lot of the films are from the viewpoint of people who happen to have to live among the mess. One real good one comes to mind, a film called 'Cal', based on a novel by Bernard MacLaverty. It's about a young catholic man who lives in a "protestant area" with his father.

*SPOILERS* *SPOILERS* *SPOILERS*

In the beginning we see them receiving threats from the UVF saying they'll be burned out. Then we learn that the young man, Cal, has leaned on some IRA members for support in the situation, and has gotten involved in the shooting of a policeman, against his will. The plot thickens as a year after the shooting he falls in love with the policeman's widow.

In the film the IRA members are depicted in a poor light. One is a relic of the ancient times, his son is a fanatic patriot and the youngest one is mostly interested in being a criminal, robbing banks and shooting people is a mere kick. They're unsympathetic characters while the policeman who was killed was a victim.

Cal himself gets messed up by all parties. UVF beats him up and burn his house down, IRA makes him a wanted man and he ends up in prison and loses the love of his life, and the police give him a nice ruffling up as they take him away.

It's not a film about glorifying any side, it's about grim circumstances that leave people the victims of their surroundings. Cal's father is delivered into an insane asylum, a woman loses her husband and becomes involved with a guy who had a hand in his death, a young man has his life handed to him in pieces.
A lot of movies about The Troubles are like this. But I suppose if you already suffer of an identity crisis and have prejudice ideas of such severity that make you think In The Name Of The Father is a propaganda plot by IRA terrorists, you're able to make any movie suit them.

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By the way I am not supporting the IRA, nor any other terrorist groups. I just simply have to disagree with your statement about the movies made on the subject. The ones that touch the issue of the IRA are incredibly contradictive.

Your attacking films is senseless because movies are a form of artistic expression. You have to have a point of view from which to write and direct a story. Films are like songs or paintings. An honest view from someone's angle. And there are a lot of artists involved in making a movie, like this. John Lynch who played Paul Hill in this film also played Bobby Sands in 'Some Mother's Son'. He got punched in the face for it. At a bar. By some thug. For just telling a story from an artist's point of view. He has written two books and in both of them the IRA come out as a destructive force.
Movies aren't evil. Subjects may be. What you need to understand is that there isn't some evil conspiracy propaganda machine for IRA. These films are there to just tell a story from a certain point of view. That's all there is to it. Now, if you want to effect your own situation, have these arguments with your local politicians. See what the real world has to say. But it's sensless attacking a piece of fictional film. Let the artists do their work and if you're not into what they do, vote on your feet like most people do. Northern Ireland I may not know, but films I do.

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hahahahaha
and an apartment that smells of rich mahogany

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I actually find that the majority of the world...way too many people, are constantly kissing british asses.

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Are you aware of what a logical fallacy is? Because to suggest that this film is anti-British because it highlights, however clumsily, an outrageous miscarriage of Justice against four people whose crime was being Irish, or associating with Irish people, in London in the 1970s.

I have little time for this film because it chooses to use the horrific story of the Guildford Four as the basis for a film, rather than sticking the far more powerful real-life narrative.

Anti-British. You haven't the first idea of what you write.

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[deleted]


if we the British of Northern Ireland were soooo bad to the Catholics who choose to live here - then why do film makers have to make up lies to push their anti British propoganda ?

This is not like the treatment of native american indians, slaughtered and treated liked third class citizens in their own country.

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[deleted]

[deleted]


th eevidence is in these threads - the film was a fantasy, more fiction than fact and changed the critical points to fit the republican fantasy that the IRA would never do something so 'horrible' as bomd a pub full of innocents........yeah right.

Dont worry most people can see through it.

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have you even seen the movie you fckin weirdo? There is a scene which shows the bombing which came at the height of the IRA bombing campaign in London - at no stage doe the movie or the movie maker suggest that the IRA werent the perpetrators. In fact the IRA are said to have admitted to the bombing while Conlon et al were imprisoned - WRONGLY AND ON SHODDY EVIDENCE AND WITHHOLDING OF KEY WITNESS STATEMENTS BY THE BRITISH CROWN.

just so you know Rice, the sentence i have capitalised is what the movie is about. You soggy arse biscuit.

http://SaskatchewanStu.bebo.com
www.myspace.com/bangojuice

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typical republican denial and misplaced arrogance.

The film lacks any real fact and creates fictional scenes and pushes lies and distortion to produce yet another pathetic romanticised view of terrorism.......I doubt we will see many more of these films post 9-11 reality check.

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[deleted]

OK...this movie had its fictisous points and only used the situation with the Guilford 4 as a backbone to the movie. Some say they were guilty terrorists and others say they were innocent people in the wrong place at the wrong time. We may never know the truth because the evidence and truth has been twisted and made unreliable. But to say that this movie shows the IRA not as a terrorist group but as an oppressed people trying to gain freedom, or that they didnt do anything wrong and are justified with their actions is rediculous. Every government has its bad history, America is still young but has had its fair share with the Indian Removal Act, and the Japanese Internment camps and with the treating of Blacks. But Britain is no better, they had there issues through out history as well.


A line was said in the moive and even though it came from an IRA agent it had some truth behind it "The Brits never left anywhere without a fight, they had to be beaten out of every country they ever occupied." As an American, I can say that is definately true.

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rice-1 reading this thread i have come to the conclussion (which i am sure many have) that you are a small-minded KNOB!!

it is because of the bitterness clearly instilled in people like you that prevent our peace process from moving upwards and onwards.

the troubles were a horrific 30 odd years, but people want to get past this, and it is because of idiodic morons like you that we can't! the past is exactly that-it cannot be changed, we can only learn from it.

yes you are entitled to your opinion but no offence i dont think you actually have one-i think you like to ramble on about bugger all except your bitterness. this film is BASED on an event. no where can you find a description of this film using the word "docu" unless it is saying that the film ISN'T one!!

and to say terrorism is "romanticised"-if thats what you think romanticised is never EVER take someone out on a date...PLEASE!! for their sake!!

at the end of the day, four people were tortured into making a "confession" which has been proven to have been manipulated by police, and along with the Maguire 7 were falsely imprisioned. On 9 February 2005,Tony Blair issued an apology to the families of the eleven people imprisoned for the bombings in Guildford and Woolwich, and those related to them who were still alive, by saying, in part: "I am very sorry that they were subject to such an ordeal and injustice (…) they deserve to be completely and publicly exonerated." so how about listening to aul Tony n letting them be!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guildford_Four_and_Maguire_Seven

it is a film with POETIC LICENCE, BASED on true events !! GET OVER IT AND GET A LIFE!!

i wonder have you actually seen this film or just read reviews of it?? because your knowledge of actual events in the film is very limited!!

mucho love!! :) xxx

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[deleted]


I've been living in the North all my life and one thing is quite clear, Rice_1 is clearly a sectarian anti-Catholic bigot. He uses his language very carefully here because he knows that if he says what he wants to say he'd get banned from this site in an instance. It's actually people like you Rice_1 that's holding the Peace Process back, this film is about the failures of the British Judicial system and you're turning this into a thread about the IRA/SAS and Robert Nairac? Go peddle your Loyalist crap elsewhere.

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[deleted]

Rice1 wrote:

The film lacks any real fact and creates fictional scenes and pushes lies and distortion



So, Gerry Conlon, the other 3, his father and the rest of the Macguire 7 were NOT put to jail for the Guildford bombing, they did NOT serve their respective sentences (one of them serving a life sentence although no life sentence was ever given for the crime), they were not acquitted in 1989 and Tony Blair did not apologize for the miscarriage of justice in this case - this is what you are saying, right??

Of course, you could be saying that they did the deed, in which case it falls on YOU to prove it, or you will be the one being accused of spreading lies and "propaganda".

P.S. Before you start crying "murder" and other valid arguments, I am NOT Irish.
P.P.S. Ever wondered why in almost 90% of former British colonies a civil war (or a war between countries of basically the same ethnicity - that's India and Pakistan) followed shortly after their independence?


Cute and cuddly boyz!!

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I never followed the case in real life, so excuse me if I can't draw any better comparisons between any flaws in the film and its misrepresentations of what actually happened. However, as for the pivotal "not to be shown to the defense" scene, I think that that note was paper-clipped to a document which was enclosed in a file. Therefore, the bailiff/custodian/whoever the replacement for the day was who gave her the files wouldn't have seen that note. I think Emma had to open up the cover of the folder and/or pull out the papers of the folder first (if it was a boxed type of accordian folder) and then see the note revealed. Either way, it was a lucky break and quick thinking on the attorney's part to request the other folder. I might have risked it and said "both". If the security guard had asked me why both, I would have said that I'm defending both guys (how would he know?) (Wasn't it the father's folder that she was given as opposed to her client's, the son's?) I think she might have gotten away with getting both folders...how would this little security guard know?

Anyway, I loved this movie.

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the only note that read 'not to be shown to the defense' that we can see is the one stuck inside one of the files, not-at-all visible to Mr. Joe Blow.

but I am surprised that it is possible to get past the fact that this was a case that the Brits were so meticulous about keeping the evidence from the entitled parties that it wouldn't be widely known that the counsel for the defendant was not to get her hands on it under any circumstances.

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