tut tut, jkinsella. you pointed out some ludicrous example of irish hypocricy earlier in this thread in a lame attempt to link Ireland with the US and claim that we worship them. Then you dismiss someones argument because it contained a statement that you considered an attack on your character. You then proceed to call the last poster a "complete and utter imbecile". Hypocricy anyone?
That minor point aside, i think its time for a reality check here on the point in hand. Are the irish "the blacks of europe"? Well i have always thought our situation is somewhat comparable to the plight suffered by black people. Certainly we have been treated with similar disdain in our history both in our own land (the ISLAND of IRELAND) and abroad. Where we have experienced hostility and lack of human rights would have been primarily England (up until relatively recently) and the USA (mostly as a result of the English forcing/causing a mass exodus of Irish people from Ireland to the USA around famine times). Gwydno makes a good point though about what right the irish have to claim this dubious honour? And it got me thinking. He claimed that all countries have had periods of prosperity and subjugation. While we are prospering now, the only thing i can say to gwydno is that Ireland has a history of constant invasion and subjugation. From the Celts to the Vikings to the Normans and then, by far the worst, the English. Why the worst? They brought nothing to Ireland but violence, murder, rape and famine. Thats why. Our previous conquerors, to use a popular phrase became "more Irish than the Irish themselves". You guys refused to even breed with us! (which kinda sounds simlilar to feelings about mixed race which the black people are still subjected to)
The English (or British, but i dont wanna include the proud Scots or Welsh), these same people, those whom you live with and claim to be (though your heritage makes you something of a mongrel) came to our country and, ill put this quickly, took our lands, our language and our crops. Those that you didnt put in the front line of your army (thats right, the one your father served in) to fight and die on your conquests around the world, you left to die on the side of the roads during the famine. Thats right, while the English and Scottish lords transported cartloads of fresh food to various destinations, the Irish lay dying because the only crop, the potato, that we could grow on the *beep* land that you rented back to us at exorbitant prices, failed. The lucky ones escaped to the USA a country founded by English, who turned out initially to be just as hostile.
I have no beef with the English, personally. I have English friends and lived and worked in London myself. The majority of English people are great fun and very welcoming. What i do object to is English people failing to acknowledge their role in history and apologise for their failings in it. They brought some great things to the world they conquered however these achivements are far outweighed by the means they used to keep their victims in line.
You complain that we are a nation who should get over these atrocities. And to an extent you are right and to a far greater extent we have. We are prospering, having entered probably our first golden era since the early days of christianity produced such masterpieces as the Book of Kells. Only now it is an economic and not artistic era. But getting over these things does take time and we are still a relatively young country as far as independence goes so we reserve the right to get over it until we feel like it.
Nothing beats watching England getting knocked out of yet ANOTHER World Cup (how many years of hurt is it now? lol). And this is the way most of us feel. We dont hate the english, we just like seeing you lot have your mouths shut up every once in a while.
reply
share
jkinsella
18 years ago
Sorry, by the time I got to the start of the second paragraph I got bored. No doubt a usually high level of incoherence, historical revisionism and selectivity, and a hearty portrayal of a unique state of victimhood and triumph over everyone against you ensued. It's never anything else.
I suggest you study European then global history. And then say sorry on behalf of your ilke for the IRA (you don't have to responsible for something to apologise: I don't know any Englishman alive today who was involved in the potato famine, Easter Rising et al but they are still held accountable and expected to apologise by people who refuse to apologise for Enniskillen, Warrington etc).
What happened to Irishmen one, two and three hundred years ago has happened to other white (and black) people in the last 20 YEARS: people who are still alive and living with it today. I don't hear constant pathetic whingeing from them, only ways to move on. That is what is wrong with the Irish.
As I type this I do see "I have no beef with the English personally..." then follows the "but". Reminds me of the talk of the classic racist - you know the sort of thing "It's not that I dislike the blacks generally, but..." or "I've got nothing against Jews per se, but...". Nasty. Never trust anyone who hasn't got the guts to say it "real", instead (like Mouthchick) tries to come across as all respectful and friendly while attacking in order to try and disguise the bigotry. Either come out and say it truthfully and honestly without the attempt at caveating, or go back in your hole.
reply
share
therealdiscostu
18 years ago
by the time i read your second post i was bored, so im glad that i could have returned the favour somewhat.
But you really dont seem to get it do you? The English invade Ireland 700 years ago. They left in 1922. During that time we experienced countless acts of murder, rape, robbery and so on. That is not revisionism. That is documented fact. That it happened years ago does not mean that it didnt happen. Nor does it make it any less "worthy". As for a "hearty portrayal of victimhood", if you had read my post without "selectivity" you would have noticed the fact that i actually celebrated the current state of affairs there. Doesnt sound like constant pathetic whinging to me...
With regards to the IRA, you are the one that persists in bringing this up. But seeing as though you want to discuss them - yes, of course, the IRA have committed horrendous acts against innocent civilians. They are an illegal terrorist organisation. The majority of people from the Republic are of the same opinion. I am no IRA sympathiser so i do not feel obliged to apologise for them. I suggest that you approach them or their members for that. I do however sympathise with the victims of the IRA bombing campaign as i do sympathise with the countless generations of Irishmen who suffered at the hands of the english.
From the IRA point of view, however, and this is not defending them, the English are an occupational force. In their opinion the English are occupying their land. They used to feel that the only way to change that was to resort to violence and bloodshed. This campaign lasted all of 30 odd years. Compared to the 700 years of violence and bloodshed that the Irish were subject to, in reality, the English have got away pretty lightly. But that campaign is now over, the IRA are disarming and peace, thankfully, is seen as the way forward.
You wrote "I do see "I have no beef with the English personally..." then follows the "but". Reminds me of the talk of the classic racist - you know the sort of thing "It's not that I dislike the blacks generally, but..." or "I've got nothing against Jews per se, but...". Nasty."
that is a libellous remark and i ask that you withdraw it straight away, without reserve. That, in my opinion, is the selectivity and revisionism you refer to in your first paragraph. There was no "but" afterwards. In fact i went on to state that i find the english to be fun and welcoming. I lived and worked with them. English people are decent people like the majority of Irish people. That said, i feel that the English Government has failed to adequately account for or apologise for what they did to Ireland. Any reasonable reading of my post would have extricated that meaning. Im not asking you to apologise for the actions of past English governments (in the way that you have asked me to apologise for the actions of the IRA). I feel that any decent government would have done this by now so i dont expect it to happen anytime soon.
In the meantime, ill take small comfort in the fact that it will be another 40 years before the english win a World Cup. :D
reply
share
18 years ago
[deleted]
therealdiscostu
18 years ago
ello again HotRodder!
of course youre correct in certain respects. Im sure the medieval times were a pretty brutal place to live. And yes, even more so, im sure a "brit-free" (sorry bout the termilology!) Ireland would have been just as brutal. There is only one small distinction, however i feel its a relevant one. I suppose to use an analogy, you might think its okay to slap your own child but you wouldnt be too happy if your neighbour decided to slap your child for no other reason than it could!!
Prior to the arrival of the English on our shores we had what was known as brehon law which ive studied to some degree (though im a tad rusty at this stage). The Norman invaders tried to get rid of the law as they considered the focus on monetary compensation for ills suffered as not harsh enough! (Brehon law granted numerous rights to women by the way and divorce was legal!) Yes the idea of kinship prevailed. You swore allegiance to your Lord and provided troops for battle and so on. It survived, remarkably, up until the 1600s and the introduction of the English Magna Carta. Im not saying it was perfect but we were managing to live in a seemingly fair and just environment with very little crimes meriting death as the punishment...
you wrote: "Anyway, your 700 years figure would presumably include the 1800s. I'm sorry but I don't really think that a Englishman or anyone for that matter could commit murder or rape in Ireland and not be up in front of the beak for it."
I think its foolish to suggest that these crimes did not occur. Rape is one of the main methods of subjugation during times of occupation. Such crimes are fairly well documented during the occupation. Of course not eveyone was doing it but you know it only takes a few to do it and one blind eye to let them away with it... the Tans, yes army i know, but they were bad.
Yeah, the English get the worst of it. There were *beep* scots and *beep* welsh too but the English were the real baddies! lol...
take care
Stu
reply
share
stopbeinweird
17 years ago
I don't know anybody today who was involved in the IRA so if you want me to apologise for something i dont, never did and never will condone then i would ask you to do it first since your country started it.
Your saying that people who suffer such injustice should forget about it and move on? Now i agree violence is in now way the answer but if people dont tell (and when i say tell i mean using their voice and nothing else) the rest of the world what has been done to them, how will the world ever change?
In the end you seem to just want the world to forget what happened so you dont have to deal with it. I know what the minority of people in my country have done because they thought it was just and i in no way defend it or say people should forget it because then nobody will ever learn.
Nobody is asking every English person to apologise, it would just be nice for your country to admit that what was done to Ireland was wrong and pain like that tends to live on even in those who dont take it to the extremes. In the same way that those affected in the retaliation were hurt and that will live on and that should be apologised for too, but at least our goverment never sanctioned it.
But to be honest i doubt you'll care because it seems your happy to ignore the past in favour of ignorance, repetition and just plain being happy not having to think about it
"You tried your best and failed miserably, the lesson is never try"
reply
share
peteandurnot
18 years ago
>What i do object to is English people failing to acknowledge their role in history and apologise for their failings in it. They brought some great things to the world they conquered however these achivements are far outweighed by the means they used to keep their victims in line<
Why should the English people of Today apologise for things that happened Hundreds of Years ago, things they had nothing to do with simply for the fact that the weren't even BORN then. I would agree that the British should acknowledge the faults of the History of their Country, thats fine, but you're going on as though it happened only a short while ago, and as though the English People of Today were totally involved. The English People of Today had no role whatsoever to do with the History between our Countries for the exact reasons I mentioned above. That they should acknowledge what happened, and that their Ancestors had many faults and did do some very nasty things is right, but for *beep* sake, stop trying to make the people of today apologise for it.
For more recent events like Bloody Sunday, its more understandable, but for events from Centuries ago?.... I can't believe some people still seem intent on holding on to anger over this. Its an important part of History, no question about that, but it should be used by both Countries together as a lesson, both to show how far we have come as Human Beings in the new 21st Century, to learn not to repeat mistakes of the past, and NOT to hold onto anger. Lets MOVE on people, join the rest of the developed World.
reply
share
perorewen
17 years ago
I am using the word "colored" only as a quip against the word "white". I am doing this for two basic reasons: 1. the Irish call themselves "the blacks of Europe", and 2. they are the only "white" people treated like the rest of the world (colonized).
That being said, do you agree with the statement? I can't imagine anyone who would disagree. The Irish are the only "white" ethnic group that were colonized, that were butchered, and treated like sh*t. The British created policies so that way situations like the Famine could occur. The British often practiced colonial practices on Ireland before "outsourcing" it to the rest of the World.
I don't agree with this statement. Just look at the sami-population in Scandinavia. Was treated more than roughly.
**********
Hugs...
reply
share