MovieChat Forums > Hard Target (1993) Discussion > This movie is sick

This movie is sick

posted 13 years ago by groove76
43 replies | jump to latest

I don't know why the HELL it took me so long to see this movie but it was one of the best action movies I've ever seen.

No one makes better action than John Woo. No one.

---
Behold, bastard son
I am the evil one

[–] jeffleroo 13 years ago

Check out Hard Boiled then, if you haven't. Another similar stylized Woo classic.

[–] groove76 13 years ago

I actually have seen that and it's superb as well. I've yet to be let down by any of Woo's action, though I haven't seen any of the Mission Impossibles.

---
Behold, bastard son
I am the evil one

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] lovedawn 12 years ago

Don't watch MI:2. It's a 2-hour trailer designed to make Tom Cruise look as cool as possible. Even the bonus features on the DVD all wax on about how cool and hard and excellent he is!

Our whole Universe was in a hot, dense state...

[–] SeasonalAffective 11 years ago

Greengrass, Tony Scott, Abrams, Donner, Bigelow, De Bont, Cameron, McTiernan, etc -- they all do action better than John Woo. People fellate him and praise his films like he's the Messiah, but I've never really been impressed with his stuff. Hard Boiled was fun (though it was overkill . . . literally), Broken Arrow was a good action film, and this was good too, but so many of his films sucked hard.

Paycheck was ATROCIOUS. Face/Off was a colossal disappointment. Mission Impossible 2 was another colossal disappointment. I gave up on him after Paycheck. He sucks, and he's not this visionary, too-talented-for-people-like-me jagoff. Please don't tell me I don't "get it." I get it. He sucks anyway.

[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

IMDB member SeasonalAffective offers up an example of "EPIC FAIL":

Greengrass, Tony Scott, Abrams, Donner, Bigelow, De Bont, Cameron, McTiernan, etc -- they all do action better than John Woo.

The above is an "EPIC FAIL" as it is one of the stupidest statements ever written.

If it was meant as irony, SeasonalAffective is a genius as it serves as a parody of how clueless bigoted Westerners are when it comes to action and how bad the action film making tradition is in Hollywood. But if he was serious, he demonstrated a serious retardation when it comes to recognize quality action film making.

At least half of the people he mentioned on that list use shaky cam. Shaky cam is a bottom of the barrel technique in Hollywood. People who don't know how to direct use shaky cam to make up for their lack of skill. In terms of action scenes, it is especially frustrating for the viewer because you cannot see anything. Anyone who claims that any shaky cam action sequence is good (e.g. Paul Greengrass' action films) has to be mentally challenged because there is nothing to compliment as there is nothing to see. It's like going to see a band play but none of the instruments work yet someone in the audience claims it was the best concert ever.

John Woo is a master film maker who pays attention to film composition in every moment of his films like a true master filmmaker does. He directs his movies with the grace of a painter and gives every frame a lyrical quality that is highest form of film making. His action sequences are spectacular because he knows how to heighten the moments at the precise time through attentive editing to not only maximize excitement put also to highlight the drama within the action which brings the audience closer into story. Almost no Hollywood director is like this when it comes to action because the action film making tradition is so poor. Most of the action films in the 80s and 90s in Hollywood were jokes with a bunch of funny looking caricatures of macho men doing amateur action sequence that were poorly choreographed and lazily filmed. It's no coincidence that most of them are remembered as comedies for the one liners rather than the action scenes. That's because they were horrible. The 2000s then saw a sorry bred of wannabe action film makers that started to shake cameras because they had no idea how else to do an action scene. The Hollywood action movies from the 80s and 90s were horrible so of course they were not going to learn from them so they just shook cameras to make up for it. Anyone who falls for that is simply put, a sucker.

The best action film making is from Hong Kong and John Woo is one of its best. And John Woo's not just a great action film maker but a great film maker in general.

[–] SeasonalAffective 11 years ago

Thank you for that long, rambling diatribe, JonBonDouche.

There's NOTHING I enjoy more than watching some film school reject/Oscar-winner-wannabe-who-has-never-accomplished-anything-in-film get all butthurt because someone didn't worship one of his idols, and then go on a crusade, writing out a long diatribe about why he's right about everything and anyone who doesn't agree with him is stupid.

I was going to respond to each point you made (it's quite easy to refute them, glancing over the stupidity you've produced), but then I saw how your IMDb career is mainly made up of these hilarious "calling out" threads of other posters because you don't like the things they say.

You're not worth my time

[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

I was going to respond to each point you made, but...

you can't because you realize you've been thoroughly debunked in my response.

Your response here is nothing but a childish outcry to pretend you still have any ground. You're transparent. You proved you don't know much about film and are just some guy out there who likes what the majority likes without really knowing why. The fact you actually suggested shaky cam directors are better than someone like John Woo who pays attention to composition and single handily influenced a whole generation of film makers shows just how inane you are when it comes to film. You've grown up with only 80s and 90s Hollywood action movies many of which are among the worst movies ever made. The action is horrendous in them and there is a reason why people only talk about the one liners. Because the action is horrible that the cheesy one liners make more of an impression.

Your empty calories of a reply proves you don't have anything to offer. You may go.

[–] SeasonalAffective 11 years ago

You should teach at film school.

Thanks for the laughs, big guy!

[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

My classes aren't cheap.

You won't be able to afford it on your parents' allowance.

[–] SeasonalAffective 11 years ago

Neither are your mother's prices, but I manage to pull the cash together.

[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

You lowered yourself to the level of school children's insults to make up for the fact you have nothing to argue with. How pathetic. You lost the argument a long time ago.

[–] SeasonalAffective 11 years ago

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I was simply explaining the situation we have here.

[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

Well, it seems that playing stupid is the only thing you are good at it. And that's cause you aren't playing.

[–] SeasonalAffective 11 years ago

"That's cause," isn't a logical statement. Speaking of not playing stupid . . .

[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

It's called "colloquialism". It seems you are more ignorant than I thought.

[–] SeasonalAffective 11 years ago

Semantics. Guy off Woo's dong, and stop being so butthurt. He's just not that good :)

[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

Semantics.

No. You were just trying too hard and fell flat.

Guy off Woo's dong

This is hilarious. You tried to grasp for straws with pointing out grammar yet you write a sentence like that?

"Guy off"?? Yeah, I don't know what country you come from but that doesn't make any sense.

Anyway, the only one butthurt is you. I broke the whole thing down and you just couldn't keep up which is why you resorted to childish insults. Cause you are a child. You don't know what you are talking about.

Woo's a master. Go watch some shaky cam nonsense where no one can tell what's going on and leave discussions like this to the adults.

[–] SeasonalAffective 11 years ago

Someone who gets butthurt and then writes obsessively to the OP about it isn't acting like an "adult," big guy. You're butthurt that not everyone's drinking the Kool-Aid. Woo sucks. If he was so great, he'd have made it in the US.

Go watch some shaky cam nonsense where no one can tell what's going on

Enjoy Paycheck, Windtalkers, and Mission Impossible 2, douche.

[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

Little boy, you can't keep up with me. That's why you're acting like a child with insults and nothing else.

So the one that is "butthurt" is you because when presented with the facts you panic and start acting like a brat.

If he was so great, he'd have made it in the US.

He did. Broken Arrow, Face Off and Mission Impossible 2 were all big box office hits.

And such a xenophobic undercurrent in that comment too. As if the only good movies that are made are in Hollywood. What narrow minded and uncultured brute you are.

Enjoy Paycheck, Windtalkers, and Mission Impossible 2, douche.

I did, bigot.

[–] SeasonalAffective 11 years ago

That was--without question--the funniest and most idiotic response I've ever read on IMDb . . . and that's saying something.

[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

That's some behavior you have. When presented with facts and an air-tight argument, you respond with some delusional comment about how you're a winner somehow even though you've been debunked. You're like a real life Wimp Lo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d696t3yALAY

[–] SeasonalAffective 11 years ago

When presented with facts and an air-tight argument

You think Paycheck is a good film. I need not say more.

You don't really think I waste time on your links, do you, douche?

[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

You think Paycheck is a good film. I need not say more.

Yup.

And you're guy who thinks that shaky cam action scenes, where you can't see what is going on, is quality action film making. I need not say more.

You don't really think I waste time on your links, do you, douche?

You did click on it, little boy. When you saw yourself you cried. So you came back to pretend you didn't see it.

[–] SeasonalAffective 11 years ago

where you can't see what is going on

Maybe you can't see what's going on, but those of us with functioning brains can process what our eyes are seeing. It's not very difficult, though for your, it apparently is.

You did click on it, little boy. When you saw yourself you cried. So you came back to pretend you didn't see it.

Nope. Sorry. But your Internet Tough Guy act does make me chuckle! I'll be you're the toughest guy in the Dungeons and Dragons chatroom!

[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

Maybe you can't see what's going on, but those of us with functioning brains can process what our eyes are seeing.

You don't have a functional brain. That's why you think blurred and shaky images are something. I wouldn't be surprised if you sit and watch video static for hours at a time.

Nope. Sorry. But your Internet Tough Guy act does make me chuckle!

Look who's talking. You're the one with all the childish insults. You sound like some 6th grade schoolyard bully. I scare you. You thought you can get by with internet fanboy speak but when you were presented with knowledge you retreated with childish insults. It's like they say, you brought a knife to a gunfight.

I'll be you're the toughest guy in the Dungeons and Dragons chatroom!

"I'll be you're the"??

The guy who was quick to point out grammar goes on to make a second mistake when writing? Oh, the irony!

[–] SeasonalAffective 11 years ago

Yeah, so I didn't bother reading any of your hysterical shrieking. I do think it's funny that you have nothing else to do with yourself, though. Thanks for writing that all out for nothing.

[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

Yeah, so I didn't bother reading any of your hysterical shrieking.

Translation:

My mind can only go so far as calling people "douche" and insulting the English language by writing, "Guy off " and "I'll be you're the". Otherwise, I'm Wimp Lo.

I do think it's funny that you have nothing else to do with yourself, though.

Pot calling the kettle black.

[–] SeasonalAffective 11 years ago

Enjoy lying to yourself that Paycheck was a good movie, buddy.

[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

Enjoy lying to yourself that shaky cam is good film making.

[–] SeasonalAffective 11 years ago

Ditto with Paycheck, Wintalkers, and Mission Impossible 2.

The difference between us is that millions of people agree with me.

[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

Ditto with Paycheck, Wintalkers, and Mission Impossible 2.

Absolutely.

The difference between us is that millions of people agree with me.

And millions more agree with me.

[–] SeasonalAffective 11 years ago

Three emoticons, yet not one kernel of truth!

And millions more agree with me.

Really? Let's put that to the test. I'll take one of my "shaky cam movies" (Captain Phillips) and you take Windtalkers. You claim "millions" of people agree that your film is better.

My film, by all accounts, will be going to the Oscars (in several categories), and made $210 million against a $55 million budget. Your film, largely forgotten about, made $77 million against $115 million, meaning it lost almost 40 million dollars!!

Seems to me if "millions more" agree with you, that wouldn't be the case! With or without emoticons!

You lose. I win. QED.

. . . and I get the last word because, after I expose you for being the fool that you are, you go on ignore now. Eat me

[–] JohnBonDon 11 years ago

Three emoticons, yet not one kernel of truth!

2 actually since the other one came from the quote of yours I put up.

So it seems you can't count either.

Really? Let's put that to the test. I'll take one of my "shaky cam movies" (Captain Phillips) and you take Windtalkers.

How underhanded you are. You go out of your way to pick a movie that didn't do well at the box office and you think you proved something with that? Why don't you compare it with a movie like John Woo's Broken Arrow? The movie made $150 million at the worldwide box office in 1996 which when adjusted to 2012 inflation numbers would be $216 million (which would be even more if it were done against 2013 inflation numbers). That beats Captain Phillips.

If we are going to start talking about box office numbers, why don't we talk about Paul Greengrass' box bomb Green Zone?

And what kind of an idiot uses box office numbers to argue a film's quality? Under this stupid logic Michael Bay is a master film maker.

Let's talk about how people have literally gotten sick thanks to director's like Paul Greengrass and his shaky cam garbage. Roger Ebert got so many letters sent in about Paul Greengrass' shaky cam that he decided to just dedicate a whole post to putting in some samples of on a post at his website:

We here at the website have received so many letters about the editing style of the Bourne movies that we felt obligated to share a sampling.

David J Swift, Jackson WY: Is there a cinematographer's joke in “The Bourne Ultimatum” (2007)? The entire movie shake-a-shakes with an incessant Queasy-Cam affectation -- except for one shot. This shot is a POV of Jason peering through a hand-held zillion-power scope to read 12-point type on a document a few hundred feet distant. If there was one shot in the movie should realistically vibrate, it's this one. Care to ask the powers-that-be if this is an inside joke?

Bill Holm, Westford MA: My son (home for Hollywood, he's a film editor, and a huge film buff) and I saw “The Bourne Ultimatum” last night. While we liked the story line, and the acting was great, the constant cuts every few seconds, herky-jerky hand held camera work, and pointless pans and zooms were all a terrible distraction. Somewhere in that movie were some great action scenes, but one could barely make out what was going on. You should warn your viewers about movies like this. They should be rated MS, for motion sickness.

Chris Howard, Fort Collins CO: The latest Bourne movie, “Bourne Ultimatum,” was OK but not as good as the first one. The biggest problem was the shaky-camera gimmick. In the first movie everything was clear and I could tell that they were really driving that poor little car down some stairs, or the fighting guys were really swinging their arms. It felt like, if I could just slow it down I would see some amazing stuff, like Jackie Chan's quick hands stuff. This last movie, they could have been doing jumping jacks while the camera jerked all around, and I would never have known. It seems to me they were just lazy and didn't want to learn all of the fancy moves so they just stood around and made the camera do all the moving. I had to sit about 4 rows back from the front of the theatre. Maybe if I had been further back the shaky camera wouldn't have been so annoying. I may give the movie another try when it comes out on DVD. Maybe.

More here: http://www.rogerebert.com/rogers-journal/shake-rattle-and-bourne

Shaky cam is so bad that it literally makes people sick and has had medics write articles on how to help those that might get sick from watching a movie with shaky cam:

http://www.insidershealth.com/article/how_to_beat_movie_motion_sicknes s/1136

In fact, an entire website was created in order to keep track of shaky cam movies to warn those that might get physically sick when watching them:

http://movie-hurl.com/

From the website:

Movie-induced motion-sickness (I will refer to it as movie-sickness) is a recent phenomenon in my experience. I recall enjoying movies across a wide variety of genres for most of my life without ever once having a nauseous reaction. However, in recent years, a number of directors have adopted a new cinematographic technique colloquially known as shaky camera or hand-held camera. These directors think they can be really cool by eschewing classic mounted and steadicam cameras in favor of deliberately shaky, seemingly cheap, hand-held cameras, much like an amateur shoulder-mounted or hand-held camcorder.

They have a top 10 worst shaky cam movies and two of them belong to your lord Paul Greengrass.

You claim shaky cam is so great yet it makes people sick from watching it.... literally!

. . . and I get the last word because

You don't get the last word. I do.

I debunked you in each and every turn and I did just now again. You got frustrated and threw that horrible attempt at running away. You think putting me on "ignore" gives you the last word? How if I am still writing? Here's the thing, little boy. Everyone else will be able to read what I wrote and will see you for the loser that you are who got debunked and got exposed for the coward and clown that you are. You're such an idiot.

Run away, Wimp Lo. It's time for little children like you to go to bed.

[–] akademic78 11 years ago

You're an absolutely clueless idiot, but that's ok. Must be fun to embarrass yourself here.

[–] SeasonalAffective 11 years ago

Uch, another film school dropout who thinks he knows what good film really is. Eat me.

[–] akademic78 11 years ago

Yes, I know exactly what a good film is, and by what merits to judge each film. You, on the other hand, are a clueless idiot. But as I've said, that's ok.

[–] SeasonalAffective 11 years ago

Yes, it's fun to talk like a tough guy on the computer, isn't it, skippy. I'm sure you do the same thing in real life.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

SeasonalAffective Shut the fuck already and go choke on a cock. Even if you hate John Woo, he's a lot more rich and famous than you'll ever be. When Woo dies he'll still be remembered long after while everyone else won't even know you even existed in the first place after you die.....who's the one that really sucks here? You're just some loser nobody geek on the internet....do you seriously think Woo or the general public even remotely gives a shit what you think? Nope. You're just a fart in the wind.

[–] Thenewnexus 11 years ago

This movie was awesome i love the last 30 mins.

I use to own this town Now my life's been turned upside down Just a phase I'm going through

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] darthsitkur 9 years ago

This is my first John woo film and I like him already lol, his action scenes are plenty ridiculous but REALLY exciting and hardcore

[–] darthsitkur 9 years ago

You guys should check out the raid 1 and 2, they aren't from John woo but the action scenes are BEYOND incredible and they REALLY get your adrenaline going