Removing 'When Love Is Gone' to me... - The Muppet Christmas Carol (1992) Discussion

[–] boll-weavil 15 years ago

I'm sorry. Its just truly terrible. Compared to the sublety of the rest of the movie,to ram some big-voice singer un-necessarily into the middle is just in-appropriate. I, who hate film cuts, am glad its edited out.

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[–] jammastrjess 15 years ago

agreed, fully. I always used to fast-forward through it anyway, so im glad its gone.

"Hi, my name is Russell..."

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[–] Marz_Barz 15 years ago

i had the video when i was younger and i cant even remember it so it must of been boring cos i love the film, so it makes no difference to me

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[–] Marz_Barz 15 years ago

I remember it now my sister showed me it on youtube!

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[–] Marz_Barz 15 years ago

i just found this on wikipedia

The song "When Love Is Gone" was removed from the DVD release, despite having been featured on the VHS release. Henson felt it made the film too melodramatic. "When Love Is Gone" can be seen only in fullscreen but not in the widescreen version in the 2005 DVD 50th Anniversary Edition release.

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[–] boll-weavil 14 years ago

Well you can see how awful it was for yourself then ! The film flows faster without it - many apologies to all of you that like it.

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[–] boll-weavil 14 years ago

You make a valid point - it certainly does show up Scrooge as realising the error of his ways and not many versions spend enough time on doing this. However, putting it on a par with 'Over the Rainbow' is a little over dramatic. This is a full-length ballad - hardly suitable for a short film adaptation either stylistically of thematically. Perhaps it was intended as a signature tune that could promote the film (like Winslett's 'What If' a few years later)and when it was unsuccessful, it was removed. Whatever the reason, I actually think its the right one but that's a personal view.

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[–] dursman2000 14 years ago

It was absolutely the wrong decision to remove the song. The whole dramatic center of the movie IS that scene. Without it there's a jarring, ridiculous edit where Scrooge is suddenly crying and the sequence no longer makes sense. Not to mention from a musical standpoint the concluding song of the film, WHEN LOVE IS FOUND, no longer has any dramatic thrust -- it's a counterpoint to WHEN LOVE IS GONE, in title and tune. So artistically and dramatically, the movie needs that song badly, and without it the film has a large gap.

The whole reason it was cut is because Disney was afraid it was too slow and dramatic -- for toddlers and little kids. Literally that's it. The director wanted the song in, but the studio thought it was too much for 5 year olds. So if you think the song is "awful," apparently you're a part of the juvenile audience the studio had in mind when they inexplicably removed it because they didn't want little Johnny taking a pee-pee break while it was going on.

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[–] IndysGrl76 14 years ago

I completely agree. When I was little I always fast forwarded through that boring and horrendous song. UGH!! But now as I have grown older it has become my absolute favorite song and I couldn't imagine watching the movie without it. Its funny how your views change as you get older.

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[–] boll-weavil 14 years ago

I don't think it was ever intended as the dramatic centre of the movie.The final graveyared scene is usually that. Even if it was, the overly mawkish way in which it is handled is hardly in keeping with the rest of the movie, most of which is all the better for being understated.I don't believe that every film, regardless of its subject matter, has to have a schmaltzy sentimental ballad in it just to sell the soundtrack.It wasn't really necessary in 'Titanic' but at least it was restricted to the end credits. It's just a marketing tool of present day popular movies. However, as said previously,it's a personal view. I don't like the song but for others that do, great. I'm happy to hang onto my version that doesn't have it. It's not the first film to be edited after DVD release - it's not even the first version of 'Christmas Carol' to suffer that way. I'm sure if there were any problems with children getting through the film without needing the toilet, there parents could press stop on the DVD machine - the cut wasn't made when it was in cincema's.

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[–] Doc80 14 years ago

Yeah, the "dramatic center" of the movie is either the graveyard scene or the scene right before that when Bob Cratchitt comes home after visiting Tiny Tim's grave. I'm a guy and that scene makes me tear up every single time.

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[–] scorseseholic 14 years ago

You took the very words out of my mouth, everything you said I was planning to write myself.

It was one of my favorite songs as a kid and I wanted to watch it and hear it again when I purchased it on DVD.

So sad that they took it out. It certainly didn't go over my head when I was 5. In fact, it made me really, really, sad because you really feel the love lost. As Belle is singing, Scrooge casually walks away, which just further proves and shows how cold hearted he used to be. He turned his back on his only love for money.

People these days are underestimating kids, thinking material will be too advanced for them, when in actuality, they understand it perfectly!

"Dolores, I have five days to complete this picture. Don't get goofy on me."

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[–] cherry295 13 years ago

it's the "cheer up charlie" of christmas movies... everyone fast forwards it

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[–] ohmypotter 13 years ago

HAHA I love this. Totally true. I hate "cheer up charlie"

"Whether you return by page, or the big screen, Hogwarts will always be there to welcome you home."

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[–] NobodymournstheWicked 14 years ago

I don't know why people don't seem to get this, but it sounds like you watched the widescreen version, and you were watching the Anniversary edition, that is Celberating 50 years of being green. From what I remember from seeing on the dvd, the widescreen version is the orgrinal theaterical version of the movie, with the song cut. It is on the dvd, but you have to watch the dvd, but you have to watch the full screen version in order to see the song. If you flip the dvd to the back, you will see that it includes Widescreen & Extended full screen version with deleted scene, that is what the deleted scene is. Now I don't read all the replies, so I don't know if anybody has pointed it out. So I am doing it even to be on the safe side.

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] laxgirl16_01 14 years ago

I can go either way with the song. I didn't remember it NOT being in the theatrical release since they put it on the VHS, and I watched the VHS for years and years. Since I like widescreen I mostly watch that version on the DVD, but I have the song on my iPod and I don't mind listening to it at all.

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[–] martin_66 14 years ago

I love this song, and without it what follows wouldn't have the same dramatic effect, or even make sense (why are Scrooge and Rizzo crying, for example?).

I would like to buy the DVD with the song on (my video is getting a bit old and worn out!), but don't understand the difference between Widescreen and Full screen. Are you able to explain how they would appear differently on my Widescreen, HD television?

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[–] livewithasmile 14 years ago

Oh nooo! Its on my DVD version thank goodness, it's one of my favorite parts! I love it! I dont know how anyone could dislike it so much, it's beautiful and human and real and special and not too long, just right. I would be so sad if it was cut- I just downloaded this movie for my ipad and now I am worried it wont be on there, going to fast forward to make sure!

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[–] martin_66 14 years ago

Which DVD version is it that you have / where did you get it from???!!!

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[–] livewithasmile 14 years ago

ISBN 0-7888-3635-8

Full screen version

I don't remember where I got it, but probably somewhere like Walmart, I have had it a couple years.

Hope you can find one, I personally love the entire scene, and hate that it was cut out of some versions!

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[–] 14 years ago

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[–] livewithasmile 14 years ago

http://www.amazon.com/Muppet-Christmas-Carol-Michael-Caine/dp/B000065V41/ref=cm_cmu_pg__header

Found it on Amazon- this is the version I have!

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[–] martin_66 14 years ago

Thanks for that!! I'll try to hunt down a copy. It would be great to see a nice clear dvd copy of the entire film this Christmas instead of my old grainy vhs video!

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[–] mrssutherland2013 14 years ago

When I was a child I thought the song was the most boring thing on the planet, and especially as I didn't really understand what they hell they were singing about. But as a grown up, I love the song,understand and can appreciate it, and I really miss it on my DVD (Fortunately I still have my VHS copy lol, but for how long will we have VHS players??) I also agree that it was needed as part of the story, it showed Scrooge starting to see the error of his ways and we also get to see that he once had a soft side and has experienced love instead of always just being a cruel cold man. I believe the song is character building.

**cArNiVaLs oF fAyGo**

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[–] branenj001 13 years ago

I do realize that the tiny tim/graveyard scene was always the big impact point, but with this version, to me, that song is when Scrooge really started to let down his walls a bit. To this day for me it's one of the most heart breaking scenes in a movie to watch. The scene always stays with me the rest of the movie.

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[–] DampSlinky88 13 years ago

I just got my account and this was one of the first things I wanted to discuss, and I'm really glad somone started this board. I completely agree with you branenj001, it is a very important moment in Scrooge's development. I was very disappointed when that song was cut out.

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] nerdbomber 13 years ago

Not sure if ur being sarcastic about Caine's crying, but I thought it was kind of weak acting.
Anyway, my siblings and I always fast-forwarded through "the love is gone". i think if she wasnt so unattractive when she sings it might be more bearable. Her nostrils start flaring, we start laughing.
Im still surprised they cut it out tho.

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[–] velvoofell 13 years ago

Dursman2000 is spot on. This is the most human - and by that it is meant to be flawed - song in any Disney movie. It is the absolute heart and soul od the film and it is the tipping point at which Scrooge realises what his pursuit of money and career cost him.
The Muppets have always had silliness right next to poignancy and it worked so well in that regard. It was intended to be the sell through song and was overshadowed by the far more cynically marketted and sugar-sweet 'A Whole New World' from that year's 'Aladdin'.
I say Disney should restore it - Sony/Columbia restored it when they had the rights to the film. I always hate it when Disney own the Muppets - a Faustian pact indeed.

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] RTDEG5 13 years ago

I agree. This is one of the only films that I insist on watching in full screen because I feel like that song should stay in the movie. One of my favorite things about The Muppet Christmas Carol is that, despite all the silly muppets around him, Caine plays Scrooge with complete sincerity and professionalism, as if he were in a perfectly straight version of A Christmas Carol. I've always thought Caine was one of the best Scrooges on film and the When Love Is Gone scenes is one of the highlights of his performance. The look on his face when he watches his younger self walk away and then he tries to sing along with Belle before breaking down and crying...it's just heart-breaking.

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[–] martin_66 13 years ago

Couldn't agree more.

I've never been a huge fan of Michael Caine as an actor, but I have always thought he was superb in this. The way he plays is straight in amongst a group of fuzzy felt muppets is truly impressive, one of my favourite film performances ever.

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[–] IceboxMovies 13 years ago

Okay.

To begin with, I think the clear divide between all the users in this thread is that the people here who love the song grew up with the VHS. The people here who hate the song originally saw the movie in its initial theatrical run, when the song wasn't included.

Therefore, *that's* why some of you feel the song isn't necessary.

Me? I grew up with the VHS. So, I think the song is absolutely necessary, but I'm not going to repeat what everybody here has already said (that it's the dramatic thrust of the story).

I'm just going to ask: for those of you who think it was right for the studio to cut the song out, are you seriously not bothered by the jarring edits and the random reappearance of the song at the end of the movie/end credits? If the song is absent, how do those little parts of the film stand out to the rest of you?

I mean, gee whiz. I'd rather take a movie with a schmaltzy, sentimental song at its core than a movie that winds up with a god-awful, messy structure... precisely because that song got taken out.

Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest.

"What I don't understand is how we're going to stay alive this winter."

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[–] RTDEG5 13 years ago

For the record, I saw the film in theaters and still think the song should have stayed.

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[–] prodigy556 13 years ago

I saw it in theaters, and still think it is necessary. I don't know how others feel, but I think you get a very different interpretation of the scene when the song is removed.

Without the song it looks as if Belle just walks away from Scrooge. As if he really does love her, but simply wants to wait. They do not have much dialogue.

When the song is there, the viewer gets so much more from the scene. We see Belle telling him that she does not feel as if he loves her. She walks away from him, but through song is telling him why. He is the one that chooses to leave. He makes a last attempt to reach out to her(by touch), and she rejects it. He does not fight for her love, but simply walks away. She turns, realizes he has gone and leaves.

I think the song replaces much of the important dialogue and scenes that the book has. She walks away from him in the book, but she tells him so much more. His turning point in the book comes from this scene, and seeing her later with her family and children.

I enjoy the song in there. It is a pivotal moment for the movie where he finally seems to realize all that he has lost.

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[–] velvoofell 13 years ago

The song was in the UK cinema theatrical cut in 1992 and should have remained. It just adds so much and, as has been already said here, motivates and defines Caine's Scrooge. This is what Zemeckis CGIfest absolutely missed - if you make Scrooge a hag-faced grotesque, you can't really go anywhere with that. Plus Caine's Scrooge kicks the arse of Carrey's Scrooge by a country mile.

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[–] martin_66 13 years ago

That's what I was thinking. I saw the film when it came out in cinemas in the Uk, and then when I bought the VHS I don't remember thinking that it suddenly had a new song added.

The song helps the whole scene make sense. The film is seriously lacking something special without it.

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[–] CharteredStreets 13 years ago

I saw a print of the movie in Edinburgh tonight and it had the wear-and-tear one would expect from a near-20-year-old print. And I was surprised to discover the song was NOT in it. Starting to think it was only ever on the full screen VHS (and possibly TV versions?).

If I have to tell you again, we're gonna take it outside and I'm gonna show you what it's like!

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[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Geeky Randy 13 years ago

I like the song, and I just prefer to watch the uncut version (I have the DVD that includes both versions) because I've grown accustomed to it by watching the VHS version as a kid. I think it's a rather confusing emotional change in Scrooge, Gonzo and Rizzo without it.

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