So how did Santiago's death save lives?
"Santaigo's death while tragic probably saved lives"
Really? How so?
"Santaigo's death while tragic probably saved lives"
Really? How so?
He wasn't a good marine. He often fell back on runs, complained a lot, whined for a transfer, felt the marine corp was being a big meanie to him. Would you want someone like this charged with defending the country? Not saying he deserved to die, but Jessop's point was that he was a crappy marine, so since he isn't around anymore it is likely that something worse was avoided, like many men dying because he wasn't capable of protecting another man's life, which is the big idea behind their unit.
shareIf Santiago isn't a competent marine and keeping him on duty may costs lives, he just needs to be transferred. Not MURDERED. Also, the colonel's intension wasn't to kill him, but to train him(though I don't see how that will improve Santiago's performance at all). By that logic it is what the colonel did that put lives in danger. Saving lives by Santiago's death is simply the colonel's excuse for his crime, nothing sacred.
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How messed up is it that Alzanden seemed to be okay with them killing him...
shareExactly. Attempt at Justification for something hat went seriously wrong.
shareMen dying doing what? What war were we fighting?
There is no justification and never would be justification to execute somebody for being a bad soldier or marine. The armed forces have policy for how to deal with sub par people. Demotions, discharge. Something.
The entire premise that Jessop provides is retarded and there is no way he would be so stupid as to admit to a felony based on the logic that we need him on that wall. That is idiotic.
He was implying that Santiago was a substandard marine and his incompetence would likely have cost others their lives.
I agree with the others. I'm sure you have heard the saying "a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link." Well, do to his condition, Santiago was that link.
shareWhat the others have said, or as I have seen firsthand (not by individuals actually dying, but from getting kicked out): "addition by subtraction."
"Why must you needlessly complicate EVERYTHING?" --Gordon Shumway
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@crankymofo He is saying conceptually the CODE OF HONOR symbolized by the men obeying to carry out of the Code Red is what saves more lives in the long run...
No. If that's what Jessup was saying, then he would've been admitting to having ordered a Code Red, in which case it would've been Game Over. Jessup didn't admit that until later.
He may not have said it directly but he pretty much gave himself away. Or his rage betrayed him, to be more precise. Basically, Jessup's stating that he's okay with the occasional death of one of his own if it means keeping the chain strong for those who are more fit soldiers.
It's "preemptive strike" mentality carried to a new level where an innocent man's life is expendable in the likelihood that "better" men's lives will be spared.
@crankymofo He is saying conceptually the CODE OF HONOR symbolized by the men obeying to carry out of the Code Red is what saves more lives in the long run...
No. If that's what Jessup was saying, then he would've been admitting to having ordered a Code Red, in which case it would've been Game Over. Jessup didn't admit that until later.
As others have said, Santiago wasn't up to it. Lives could also have been saved my simply moving him to another area of the marines away from the front line where he was less of a danger to himself and fellow marines.
Basically Jessep should have taken Markinson's excellent advice and just moved him off Guantanamo.
When I said I wanted to be a comedian, they all laughed at me. Well, they're not laughing now!
"As others have said, Santiago wasn't up to it. Lives could also have been saved my simply moving him to another area of the marines away from the front line where he was less of a danger to himself and fellow marines."
What front line? Why does everyone seem to forget that Cuba is not a combat zone?
1. Because he would have caused problems in situations of war.
2. it strengthens the bond between the soldiers participating in code reds
3. motivation/deterrence to soldiers
4. example of the extreme in this specific place: death -> soldiers will follow orders and be obedient
All these responses, while not necessarily justifying Col. Jessup's outrageous answer, point out one obvious problem.
If his "death... probably saved lives", then wouldn't it have been more prudent to give Santiago the transfer he wanted, or better still, honorably discharge him from the Marines? Wouldn't that have saved one more life?
The utilitarian ethics of Col. Jessup epitomize the mindset of the military: the end justifies the means.
Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken
Transferring Santiago would in Jessup's mind just have moved the problem elsewhere--he would still be a sub-standard Marine putting other lives in danger--just not at Guantanamo. Jessup did not like that approach---he preferred to "train" Santiago to be a better Marine. Of course
Jessup did not know of Santiago's true medical condition--and of course Jessup was a dick!
I get that, and you're right he is a tool.
I'm just wondering why a Marine who fails every fitness test wouldn't be discharged. That would be more effective at "probably saving lives" than forcing the issue of training him.
Reminds me of Leonard from Full Metal Jacket. Someone that overweight and out of shape should have been rejected.
Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance. H.L. Mencken
"Saving lives" is the biggest exaggeration Jessup makes of his defense for the Code Red because Santiago wasn't in any circumstance where he was defending or endangering anyone. He was being trained on a base, not fighting overseas in the Gulf War, so he wasn't in any circumstance of putting lives in danger with his poor skills at the time. If he had been sent home, that would have spared the men grief of his incompetence, especially since most of them didn't like Santiago anyway and would have been relieved to have a weak link being removed. The Code Red had no payoff at all and Jessup just kept defending it by using the "saving lives" mumbo jumbo to assuage any regrets that a commanding officer should have about risky decisions.
shareI agree, Jessup's "probably saved lives" speech made no sense.
And deep down, I think he knew it.
If a more reasonable person were in Jessup's shoes, they would have eventually looked past their own anger at Santiago's letters and dealt with the matter more calmly. I think the first logical conclusion is that a transfer would have been out of the question. Word would get out. The story would go that Santiago broke the chain of command, ratted on a fellow soldier in exchange for a transfer, AND IT WORKED. Imagine the message that would send to his troops. So, the only appropriate response would be a court-martial and dishonorable discharge for Santiago. That would send the right message, and frankly, Santiago kind of deserved it.
Jessup could have come to this conclusion on his own. So why didn't he? Because he could not get past his own anger at Santiago. He probably viewed those letters as a power-play to undermine his authority, a breech of the Marines' code so blatant and disrespectful it could not be forgiven. In fact, Nicholson's first scene in the movie definitely gave me the impression that Jessup identified so strongly as a Marine that he probably took Santiago's actions as a direct assault on his own manhood. When he said, "We're gonna train the lad," it's clear he didn't give a s**t about training anyone. He is bristling with anger, unable to think logically or sanely. This isn't someone who cares about training anyone. He very clearly wants Santiago to suffer. The Code Red isn't for training. He wanted to HURT Santiago. And when Santiago died, I don't think Jessup shed a tear. In fact, he holds contempt for Kaffee for "weeping" for him. In Jessup's warped mind, Santiago was a piece of s**t who got exactly what was coming to him.
Either Jessup took time to understand this over time, or not. Either way, his "probably saved lives" speech was complete BS a coward's ploy to hide behind words like "honor, code, loyalty" to justify his own sadism.
"The story would go that Santiago broke the chain of command, ratted on a fellow soldier in exchange for a transfer, AND IT WORKED. Imagine the message that would send to his troops. So, the only appropriate response would be a court-martial and dishonorable discharge for Santiago. That would send the right message, and frankly, Santiago kind of deserved it."
Deserved it why? Because he was going to report on another soldier for illegally firing into another country's territory? For all the obsession with security and "saving lives", that little bit always seems to get skated over. This is the kind of culture that produces unthinking machines like the two defendants that exist only to follow orders no matter what the consequences, and leads thugs like Jessup to think they can just cover up their crimes and skate by. If no one is ever able to report crimes, and people are seen to deserve punishment if they do, that's a breakdown of law and order; that's the law of the jungle.