I saw an ad during SNL last night that stated TTS ratings are the highest in twenty years! Is this just a honeymoon period for Jimmy or is it overhyped?
This article seems to say that Jimmy's debut was no stronger than Conan's.
http://www.deadline.com/2014/02/tonight-show-ratings-jimmy-fallon-debu t/
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In a few weeks Fallon ' s ratings will collapse because he SUCKS!
Jesus NEVER existed! He is Judeo Christian MYTH!
megafauna005 (Sun Mar 2 2014 09:58:28)I agree with the part of him sucking. He sucks in air when he inhales, which is a part of the breathing process. If he didn't do that, he would die. As for Jimmy Fallon's (not Fallon ' s) ratings, I have a feeling he will do just fine and it won't be a repeat of the screwed up Conan disaster. share
In a few weeks Fallon ' s ratings will collapse because he SUCKS!
Fallon and Meyers have already started their inevitable slip. Jay will have the last laughs. For NBC, there will only be tears.
http://tv.yahoo.com/news/kimmel-ratings-rise-fallon-slips-night-seth-meyers-163122338.html
Rheli (Tue Mar 4 2014 17:08:08)Considering that Fallon is still getting into the hang of things and his ratings last night were better than Leno's return in 2010, not to mention that Fallon was initially tanking when he was first hosting Late Night, it's just a matter of time before he's going to be a ratings power-house like Leno was.
Fallon and Meyers have already started their inevitable slip. Jay will have the last laughs. For NBC, there will only be tears.
http://tv.yahoo.com/news/kimmel-ratings-rise-fallon-slips-night-seth-m eyers-163122338.html
Oh and also want to point out that you should read the content. Fallon is still ahead of Kimmel. :P
shareSeth Meyers should have a feature on his show called "Weeknight Update." Do what you do best Seth!
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DrakeStraw (Sun Mar 2 2014 09:21:03)I'd say it's a mix of a few things. When it comes to ratings, percentages, etc, if you know how to manipulate the numbers, you can have them say almost anything you want.
I saw an ad during SNL last night that stated TTS ratings are the highest in twenty years! Is this just a honeymoon period for Jimmy or is it overhyped?
Yes, and Fallon was purposefully launched during the Olympics so he could benefit from the higher than usual audiences that watch the coverage of the games. Conan, on the other hand, made his debut as the new "The Tonight Show" host on June 1st, and it's the summer months that usually attract fewer viewers than what the show normally gets from September to the end of May. So, if Fallon is getting higher ratings than they've seen in years, possibly it's because of the Olympics. Neither Conan nor Jay got to begin their reigns with such a worldwide event to ride in with.
sharea_l_i_e_n (Tue Mar 4 2014 23:00:03)I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you are one of those who think there was a conspiracy against Conan and that Leno was possibly the mastermind behind it. Am I right? share
Yes, and Fallon was purposefully launched during the Olympics so he could benefit from the higher than usual audiences that watch the coverage of the games. Conan, on the other hand, made his debut as the new "The Tonight Show" host on June 1st, and it's the summer months that usually attract fewer viewers than what the show normally gets from September to the end of May.
Fallon ' s TS is garbage with his stupid dancing! That is NOT the TS and his ratings will eventually tank!
Jesus NEVER existed! He is Judeo Christian MYTH!
megafauna005 (Wed Mar 5 2014 04:13:55)If you sincerely believe that, then...
Fallon ' s TS is garbage with his stupid dancing! That is NOT the TS and his ratings will eventually tank!
FangsMcWolf: I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you are one of those who think there was a conspiracy against Conan and that Leno was possibly the mastermind behind it. Am I right?
a_l_i_e_n (Wed Mar 5 2014 09:43:13)Well the way it was reading, it was almost bordering on "Conan wasn't given a fair shake..." type of thing. share
After 4 years of posting about "The Tonight Show" debacle I find it actually refreshing to be accused for the first time of siding against Jay Leno. You should see the abuse I usually take for arguing for him. I do thank you for that, Fangs.
I try and be objective when I talk about what happened, and I do think that just about everybody involved in the Tonight Show debacle must accept a portion of the blame for what happened, and that includes Conan. Having said that, I consider NBC to be primarily responsible, and I also think that the amount of blame and hostility that was aimed at Jay Leno was ridiculously over-the-top, and, often, just plain not true. Jay's probably the most unfairly judged personality in television history. But it's pretty tough to persuade some of them out there who refuse to see him as anything other than Darth Vader in a tie.
shareI do think that just about everybody involved in the Tonight Show debacle must accept a portion of the blame for what happened
Drebin31: Which portion(s) is Jay's fault?
-Zucker convincing him to stay and do the 10pm show was a tough sell, and that's because Jay was dubious about the whole idea. He even said just before he departed to start work on it that he wasn't sure how well it was gonna work out. Now, obviously it's not like anyone can know for sure what's going to be a hit and what's going to flop. Every show they put on is a gamble. But, Jay let NBC's stroking and assurances override his own instincts about how good an idea it was. It was NBC's concept, but just imagine all the trouble and cost it would've saved the network, and Conan, not to mention all the personal embarrassment Jay would've spared himself had he just said:
"Nah, I'm going to ABC",
or, "not acceptable. Can you come up with something else?"
or, "since my ratings are defying your dire predictions from 5 years ago, why not pay off Conan and just leave me at 11:35?".
Mind you, Jeff Zucker was so arrogant that he probably would've rejected such a proposal. Still, as we now know, it would've been a MUCH better idea than what they came up with.
-Conan took over and "The Tonight Show" ratings started to drop. Then Jay consented to a magazine interview. The interviewer posed the question "if you were asked, would you take back "TTS"?" and Jay said something like "they got a host already". But the interviewer persisted and kept asking the question. Well, obviously Jay should've avoided saying any more and just kept changing the subject. But, for whatever reason, he finally gave in and said "sure, if they asked me, I'd take it back". That was SO dumb! You can imagine what Conan's reaction was when he read that. Mind you, it was an honest answer, but sometimes it's not necessary to share your true feelings and that was sure the case with Jay in that interview. What's more he should've apologized to Conan, but never did.
So there we are. I may not think Jay Leno deserves anywhere near the amount of public scorn he's received over "The Tonight Show" debacle, but nor do I agree with every decision he made during that tumultuous time. Jay definitely screwed up, too.
Oh, Drebin, I hoped you would follow this thread because of all people you would see the irony in anyone mistaking me for a Leno loather.
It was NBC's concept, but just imagine all the trouble and cost it would've saved the network, and Conan, not to mention all the personal embarrassment Jay would've spared himself had he just said "nah, I'm going to ABC".
Yeah, the stay or go question is a tricky issue. On one hand Jay could've gone to a network where they really wanted him. On the other hand, would it have been possible to take the entire staff who'd become like family to him? Specifically, as long time employees of NBC, would they have been giving up benefit packages and such if they abandoned the network to follow Jay? Many on his staff would presumably have been older than Letterman's when they moved to CBS. Likewise, at one time Conan could've gone to ABC, or FOX where they really, really wanted him to the tune of 20 million. But he chose to stay, too. In Jay's case, though, he wasn't confident about the whole idea of a 10pm show. It might've worked out had they let it ride until May when he would only have been competing against reruns. But, the network was already suffering major losses for all their big ideas, and so maybe they couldn't afford to wait that long. At least Conan was keeping his act in late night which seemed less risky. But remaining where he wanted to be doesn't appear to have been Jay's primary error so much as it was the choice of vehicle through which he would get to stay. I'm certainly not saying "Jay absolutely should've known it would fail"; that's easy to charge when one has the benefit of hindsight. But, even Jay would have to admit he didn't listen to what his instincts were telling him when he bet on that wrong horse. Doing prime time specials (like his comedy idol Bob Hope) would likely have been a much better idea so that if and when Conan's attempt to be the new king of late night failed, Jay would still be in a position to come back when NBC was ready to ask. Plus, there wouldn't have been any of that "IT'S ALL JAY'S FAULT!" and "JAY PLANNED CONAN'S FAILURE!" business.
shareDoing prime time specials (like his comedy idol Bob Hope) would likely have been a much better idea so that if and when Conan's attempt to be the new king of late night failed, Jay would still be in a position to come back when NBC was ready to ask. Plus, there wouldn't have been any of that "IT'S ALL JAY'S FAULT!" and "JAY PLANNED CONAN'S FAILURE!" business.
I honestly think Jay would still have faced some backlash upon accepting The Tonight Show back even if he did prime time specials instead of The Jay Leno Show. It's hard to look like a good guy handing The Tonight Show off and then accepting it back 6 months later, especially at a time when his infamous 2004 comments can be so easily accessed on the Internet.
But now it's all out there that he wasn't given a choice about leaving "The Tonight Show", and that his comments in 2004 essentially amounted to an amiable surrender to both the will of the network, and Conan's ambition.
Has anyone asked Jay if he'd do anything different if he could go back in time?
He said himself just before it was cancelled that "The Jay Leno Show" didn't do anybody any favours. Clearly he wouldn't have done that twice. He also indicated on his final "Tonight Show" broadcast that people would ask him why he didn't go to another network, and he said it was because he didn't know anybody there. NBC had been his home for decades, and the "TTS" staff were like family to him. As for Conan, "The War For Late Night" mentions that he wondered if he didn't make a big mistake not accepting the offer from FOX.
a_l_i_e_n (Wed Mar 5 2014 20:58:11)If Jay had managed to avoid answering the question, they simply would have put something to the effect of his not saying no (or being against it, etc). Somehow they would have made it seem like he hinted at 'yes'.
-Conan took over "The Tonight Show" the ratings started to drop. Then Jay consented to a magazine interview. The interviewer posed the question "if you were asked, would you take back "TTS"?" and Jay said something like "they got a host already". But the interviewer persisted and kept asking the question. Well, obviously Jay should've avoided saying any more and just kept changing the subject. But, for whatever reason, he finally gave in and said "sure, if they asked me, I'd take it back". SO dumb! You can imagine what Conan's reaction was when he read that. Mind you, it was an honest answer, but sometimes it's not necessary to share your true feelings and that was sure the case with Jay in that interview. What's more he should've apologized to Conan, but never did.
Truth be told, even if Leno had been a guest when Conan was hosting and had publicly endorsed Conan (on the show) and said he's doing a great job, etc, had otherwise stayed out of the public eye other than to endorse Conan and so on and so forth, the moment he took the show back over, many of the same people would still be insisting that Leno somehow schemed to get the show back.
Some people believe that Leno isn't that funny (or is a bad host or did a terrible job, etc), despite the fact that he was a ratings goldmine.
He also indicated on his final "Tonight Show" broadcast that people would ask him why he didn't go to another network, and he said it was because he didn't know anybody there. NBC had been his home for decades, and the "TTS" staff were like family to him.
I think even Jay would agree that it's perfectly understandable that some of us don't empathize with the notion of a millionaire having to endure the inconvenience of meeting new people and setting up shop at a new location.
But it wasn't just about having to adjust to a new work environment. He had his staff to think about, too.
When Dave and Conan felt betrayed by NBC, they left.
As I said in an earlier post, though, Dave was younger, and so, likely, was his staff when he made the big move to CBS. It's not as easy a thing when you're perhaps in your 50's or older to leave a company you've worked at for years to start new somewhere else. We don't know what they might've been giving up to follow Jay if he had gone to ABC.
It always boggled my mind that Jay continued to make fun of NBC in his monologues after he willingly chose to stay with them.
Seen Letterman make fun of CBS, too, and they're the ones who gave him a home after he had his fit with NBC. Les Moonves said he actually went to Dave's office unannounced once and said to him,
"do you have a problem with me?!"
Drebin, you don't like "The Walking Dead"?
a_l_i_e_n (Fri Mar 7 2014 04:09:19)When Dave switched, wasn't it really just a matter of working in a different building within the same general area? For Leno to switch, he likely would have had to move (along with his staff, of course), so it's not like just going to a different studio, it's moving to a new city entirely.
When Dave and Conan felt betrayed by NBC, they left.
As I said in an earlier post, though, Dave was younger, and so, likely, was his staff when he made the big move to CBS. It's not as easy a thing when you're perhaps in your 50's or older to leave a company you've worked at for years to start new somewhere else. We don't know what they might've been giving up to follow Jay if he had gone to ABC.
a_l_i_e_n (Fri Mar 7 2014 04:09:19)Leno had been making fun of NBC for years. It's called comedy and the viewers aren't stupid. Lack of references to something that is known to be going on doesn't make people forget it, it just causes people to be suspicious about why it's being ignored. Any network forbidding pokes/jabs at them are only fooling themselves if they believe others will think everything is fine and dandy. share
It always boggled my mind that Jay continued to make fun of NBC in his monologues after he willingly chose to stay with them.
Seen Letterman make fun of CBS, too, and they're the ones who gave him a home after he had his fit with NBC. Les Moonves said he actually went to Dave's office unannounced once and said to him,
"do you have a problem with me?!"
Fallon ' s dumbass dancing bits are stupid as hell and his monologue sucks compared to Leno! His ratings will fall eventually.
Jesus NEVER existed! He is Judeo Christian MYTH!
megafauna005 (Fri Mar 7 2014 13:53:58)Gee, troll, do you have Jimmy Fallon and his dancing bits? You come on here and post the same crap over and over again. Why not just move on? share
Fallon ' s dumbass dancing bits are stupid as hell and his monologue sucks compared to Leno! His ratings will fall eventually.
When Dave switched, wasn't it really just a matter of working in a different building within the same general area?
Leno had been making fun of NBC for years. It's called comedy and the viewers aren't stupid. Lack of references to something that is known to be going on doesn't make people forget it, it just causes people to be suspicious about why it's being ignored. Any network forbidding pokes/jabs at them are only fooling themselves if they believe others will think everything is fine and dandy.
a_l_i_e_n (Fri Mar 7 2014 22:43:07)I remember one time when he had a guest on who was in a show on another network (FOX, I think) and when the interview was over, he mentioned their name again and was like "You can watch them in (name of show) on some other network" and then was like "this is silly" and then mentioned the name of the network. After all, it's not like withholding the network name would prevent people from being able to find it. "Doh, I wish Leno had said which network, but since he didn't, I guess I'm stuck watching NBC." Yeah, right.
Exactly. And if during Jay's term as host of "The Tonight Show", NBC slips from first place to fourth (I heard at one point it was even down to fifth place), then it's Jay's job to make fun of it. That's what a good talk show host does in his monologue is make fun of stuff like that- even when it's about his own network. I doubt the other hosts would do it any differently.
I think that's what a lot of people like about him. He tells it like it is and he knows he can get away with it.
Drebin, you don't like "The Walking Dead"?
Drebin31 (Fri Mar 14 2014 16:14:14)Maybe I'm not quite saying it right but here are a few examples of what I'm referring to...
FangsMcWolf, that's an interesting opinion considering criticism of Jay's comedy usually revolves around a perceived "safeness" and reluctance to "push the envelope" in any way. His comedy usually isn't particularly experimental or creative or unique, but rather follows a more conventional "set up --> punchline" format. In his recent 60 Minutes interview, he explained that he tries to throw in a bunch of different types of jokes to appeal to as many people as possible. Having forced myself to watch enough of his shows to be able to defend an opinion of him, I never got the sense that he "tells it like it is." I always thought he came across as "fake," that the man you saw on camera wasn't what he was like off camera. Maybe it's because I just don't think he's funny.
When I say telling it like it is, I meant it. He would just say it in a way that made it funny.
they're all making fun of the same celebrities and world events, after all. And I recall Conan wasn't above resorting to Roseanne Barr fat jokes either.
He certainly did try to do some creative stuff that would, as you say, "push the envelope", but there were some attempts that were real real clunkers like the cactus playing "We Didn't Start The Fire" on the flute
That's true, but it won in that key category one more time than "Late Night With Conan O'Brien" ever did.
To be honest, it feels like Jon Stewart's Daily Show has gotten the most late-night critical acclaim in the past decade or so. But I barely ever watch him or Colbert because I rarely enjoy political humor.
Yeah, I don't watch Stewart's show much either, and that's in part due to his not adhering to a Carson rule I happen to agree with that goes "your audience should never know for sure whether you're a liberal or a conservative". Does he have to rub our noses in the ridiculous right wing statements of FOX News every night? After a while it just seems too easy.
Drebin31 (Mon Mar 17 2014 00:30:50)Leno would do the same thing. Unlike you though, I don't memorize each episode of a show so I can have examples at the ready. Your making reference to Hot Pockets isn't a good example though because you're picking on something that is already known. Leno would pick on something new, not yet figured out or just to be a smart-ass.
FangsMcWolf: I guess I see what you're saying, but I think I just have a different opinion of what "telling it like it is" means. In those examples you gave, there is some truth to his jokes, but no one would really disagree with him. He's not throwing out opinions that he's going to have to defend in the face of opposition. If I made fun of Hot Pockets for being unhealthy, am I "telling it like it is"? Sure, there's some truth to it, but most people are on board with this accusation already.
Fallon ' s ratings are already falling! In a few months that bozo will be below where Leno was!
Jesus NEVER existed! He is Judeo Christian MYTH!
megafauna005 (Tue Mar 18 2014 07:17:56)You're the bozo here. It's understandable that his ratings are going to go down some. But if he were going to bomb, his ratings would be much MUCH lower than they are now. He's still leading in the ratings (4.5m viewers compared to Letterman (2.8m) and Kimmel (2.7m)). He could be down to 3.5m (let's say that .6m go to Letterman and .4m go to Kimmel) and STILL be in the lead. So stop trying to word things to make it sound like Fallon is bombing when he's not. share
Fallon ' s ratings are already falling! In a few months that bozo will be below where Leno was!
Your making reference to Hot Pockets isn't a good example though because you're picking on something that is already known.
Unlike you though, I don't memorize each episode of a show so I can have examples at the ready.
Drebin31 (Tue Mar 18 2014 15:21:11)You consider it safe, I consider it going for something everyone (generally speaking) can understand and enjoy. I don't mean that in a "dumbing it down" sort of way, but more of trying to cater to as many as possible. To use your "Hot Pockets" example, let's say that they came out with a new specialty "Lean Pocket" (same company) that had the same amount of calories and fat, just made up of healthier ingredients and cost a little more. After describing it, a joke along the lines of, "The reason it's called a Lean Pocket is because our wallets will get thinner than our asses."
Your making reference to Hot Pockets isn't a good example though because you're picking on something that is already known.
Well, that was kind of my point. Even when Jay addressed a brand new headline or topic, I usually felt like he went for the most obvious joke, something we can chuckle at because it's true, but nothing that's particularly innovative or that anyone's going to really argue with or be offended by. That probably had a lot to do with why he had the widest appeal of any of the hosts and maintained his #1 ranking for many years. I just didn't like him (and I still think he "borrowed" his Headlines bit from Letterman's Small Town News bit, to put it politely). But I respect that you do. I understand how subjective art is, especially comedy.
Drebin31 (Tue Mar 18 2014 15:21:11)I was poking some fun at what you remembered. Notice in my examples, the only one that had a name was in one of his last shows. That was because it was recent enough for me to remember and I actually viewed it again to make sure I got it right (more or less). I don't know who the cereal discussion was with (I might know but I'm doubtful I'm right about it). :P share
Unlike you though, I don't memorize each episode of a show so I can have examples at the ready.
Seemed to me like you do. Your last two posts were basically a bullet point list of example after example. I actually appreciated how specific you were, which is why I responded with an example of my own. But if you'd rather talk in broader, vaguer terms, I believe megafauna has rejoined the conversation.
...that's an interesting opinion considering criticism of Jay's comedy usually revolves around a perceived "safeness" and reluctance to "push the envelope" in any way. His comedy usually isn't particularly experimental or creative or unique, but rather follows a more conventional "set up --> punchline" format.
Well, I do think Jay has a point that throwing in different kinds of jokes to appeal to everybody is a good way to maximize your appeal, and I don't think the other hosts do things much differently. For all of Conan's attempts to be unique, you'd still find jokes that sounded like one's Jay had told that same night; they're all making fun of the same celebrities and world events, after all. And I recall Conan wasn't above resorting to Roseanne Barr fat jokes either. He certainly did try to do some creative stuff that would, as you say, "push the envelope", but there were some attempts that were real real clunkers like the cactus playing "We Didn't Start The Fire" on the flute, and Preparation-H Raymond. I can appreciate meta humour and stuff that's off the beaten trail, but some of those just seemed more weird than they were funny. But that's just my reaction.
("The Tonight Show With Jay Leno") won "Outstanding Variety, Music or Comedy Series" once 19 years ago in 1995.
That's true, but it won in that key category one more time than "Late Night With Conan O'Brien" ever did.
Drebin31 (Thu Mar 6 2014 22:59:47)Sort of. When you have shows of the same nature compared to one another, the ratings are a good indicator of what people tend to like more. It's hard to define quality because one show with a small budget may be considered to be better overall quality because of the content vs another show that looks rich and fancy but offers little to nothing substantial. My actual point though is that it seems like a lot of people will trash on Jay (I don't like/watch him, He's not funny, etc) but yet, if he's so bad then how is he able to bring in the ratings? If someone sincerely doesn't like him, then so be it. But if they are going to say that he's a bad host when he's bringing in the higher ratings, then they need to prove it or stfu. Be one thing if his ratings were consistently in the crapper, then that would be different since if he were a good host, he'd more likely have better ratings.
Are you saying ratings are proportional to quality? I would definitely disagree. Ratings are based in fact, while quality is completely subjective. It is a fact that Jay Leno was #1 in the ratings for many years, i.e. more people watched his show than Letterman's. But my opinion is that he is not funny or entertaining. You could disagree, but neither of us is wrong.
a_l_i_e_n (Wed Mar 5 2014 14:41:41)By that, I take it you are primarily meaning the powers-that-be at NBC. There are times when I think they actually KNEW that Conan would bomb, just probably didn't know it would happen as quickly as it did. Then there are times when I think it's just NBC having NBC (No Brain Cells). Either way, it's funny how people put the blame on Leno when Conan failed to produce good numbers.
I try and be objective when I talk about what happened, and I do think that just about everybody involved in the Tonight Show debacle must accept a portion of the blame for what happened, and that includes Conan.
a_l_i_e_n (Wed Mar 5 2014 14:41:41)That's ridiculous, there's no way his chin would fit in the mask. If anything, they would be thinking he's Palpatine. They act like he's the mastermind manipulating everyone using a very strategic plan. share
But it's pretty tough to persuade some of them out there who refuse to see him as anything other than Darth Vader in a tie.
I take it you are primarily meaning the powers-that-be at NBC.
Yes, and, in particular, one Jeff Zucker, president of NBC entertainment. That's as close to a "Star Wars" villain as you're ever gonna find in this sad saga.
There are times when I think they actually KNEW that Conan would bomb, just probably didn't know it would happen as quickly as it did. Then there are times when I think it's just NBC having NBC (No Brain Cells).
Yes, well when they were backing him, Conan in 2004 seemed like a good idea because he was the hotness of the day with "Late Night" a hit among the college crowd. Flash forward to 2009, however, and Conan's losing ground to Craig Ferguson at 12:35 while Jay is still riding high at 11:35. Add to this the fact that the recession was hitting hard and suddenly it didn't seem like a great plan to replace Conan with Jay. But, Zucker maintained it would work and, well, we all saw what happened. So tragic.
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a_l_i_e_n (Wed Mar 5 2014 14:41:41)
But it's pretty tough to persuade some of them out there who refuse to see him as anything other than Darth Vader in a tie.
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That's ridiculous, there's no way his chin would fit in the mask.
(lol) Nice one.