Drinking cow blood is, fundamentally, no different from eating beef. In fact, it could be seen as better, since you could technically do it without killing the cow. Furthermore, as long as he kept drinking it, Nick had SUPERPOWERS with which to continue his quest to repay his debt to society, and was immortal so he could continue to repay it indefinately (if he became mortal, there's no way he'd ever save more people than he'd killed (short of stoping a nuclear detonation single-handed).
The only real disadvantage: he couldn't go out in the sun. But, if he was really concerned with repaying society, he should have just sucked it up and accepted the fact that he wasn't going to get to go out in the daytime.
Your point is valid, but who can blame him for wanting to be human? I know I would want to feel the sun on my face and watch it rise in the morning if I hadn't done either in 800 years.
I believe in a forgiving God. I believe that the good Nick did and his sincere attempts to regain his humanity saved his soul. He realized how much he loved her, and he didn't want to live without her. Once she died, he knew he would return to what he was, and he couldn't bear that. This is my interpretation only. It's certainly not the only one.
...um, he could be asked to give up not having to deal with his pain, suck it all in, and keep fighting to make things right. That's a sacrifice. Suicide's an escape.
As for him returning to what he was without her, he had been doing pretty well before he met her.
1. Without her to help him, he would have returned to his more bestial nature, and would have eventually killed innocents again. He did not commit suicide. It was self-sacrifice. It's easy to say suck it all in when you're not the one feeling the pain or the inhuman hunger.
2. He was not "doing pretty well" before he met her. Flashbacks showed the many times his vampiric nature overwhelmed him. If he had been doing pretty well, he would not have needed her and accepted her help in the first place. He wanted more.
3. There is no balance sheet between good and evil. A doctor can save hundreds of lives, but it does not outweigh the evil he does if he commits even one murder. He must still pay for his crime.
4. While I respect your viewpoint, you and I will never agree. It is one of the many impasses in life. In Christian theology, suicide is the one unforgivable sin, and self-sacrifice is the greatest good. I have no idea where the line is drawn. I'm not God.
"1. Without her to help him, he would have returned to his more bestial nature, and would have eventually killed innocents again. He did not commit suicide. It was self-sacrifice. It's easy to say suck it all in when you're not the one feeling the pain or the inhuman hunger."
...um, if you say so...
"2. He was not "doing pretty well" before he met her. Flashbacks showed the many times his vampiric nature overwhelmed him. If he had been doing pretty well, he would not have needed her and accepted her help in the first place. He wanted more."
First off, he confirmed in the episode with the acupuncture guy that he hadn't killed anyone in over a century (at least). Not killing people is sufficient.
"3. There is no balance sheet between good and evil. A doctor can save hundreds of lives, but it does not outweigh the evil he does if he commits even one murder. He must still pay for his crime."
Um, yeah, but if the doctor wasn't there those hundreds of lives would likely have been saved by another doctor, who would otherwise have been placed there. Nick is capable of stopping lots of criminals who would otherwise have gotten away. Furthermore, while there may not actually be a balance sheet, the near death episode more or less confirms that Nick thinks there is, and thinks that he's still well on the evil side.
"4. While I respect your viewpoint, you and I will never agree. It is one of the many impasses in life. In Christian theology, suicide is the one unforgivable sin, and self-sacrifice is the greatest good. I have no idea where the line is drawn. I'm not God."
Yeah, it's less a matter of Nick's actual damnation to me, than whether or not he would really have felt redeemed.
...um, I say so. It's my opinion, as you have yours.
He killed, just not by bloodsucking. Check the WWII flashbacks. As one example, he broke the neck of a girl he suspected of treason without proving her guilt first. His violent, vampiric nature was still there, even if he didn't spread his curse.
If his "balance sheet" was still on the evil side after so long, there was no way he would ever satisfy himself, and he knew his evil nature would eventually overcome him. You see it differently, as is your right.
Regarding the doctor, you can't be certain of that anymore than you can be certain that the criminals Nick would have stopped would not have been stopped otherwise.
You are of course entitled to your opinion and to determine what is most important to you. So am I. To me, even Nick was not the final arbiter of whether he was redeemed or not. No matter how much good he did, he would always be a murderer. If he was saved, it was by what good he did and his true repentance, not just by a balance of lives saved vs. those taken.
You're an excellent debater, and many of your points are valid. But neither of us is ever going to change the other's mind.
no one knows gods will and in the end it is his decision. because only god can look into your soul and truely know if you are worthy. if he was truely sorry and repented the beast that lived in him..then he would be forgiven..as for his ending..did he sacrifice himself..i think he did. and that is how he would be judged.
2. When it is done to save the life of another and not to kill oneself (soldier who throws himself on grenade, parent shielding child, Fr. Karas sacrifice scene in "The Exorcist," and in that case it is actually self-sacrfice, the ultimate act of good.
I was speaking of suicide in the context of a sane person seeking to flee life, and not to save others. I concede I should have clarified that.
While I respect your viewpoint, you and I will never agree. It is one of the many impasses in life. In Christian theology, suicide is the one unforgivable sin, and self-sacrifice is the greatest good. I have no idea where the line is drawn. I'm not God.
I'd say the line would be quite firmly drawn through motive.
If Nick gave up on life because he could no longer bear the pain of living, then his death is suicide. A self-motivated act, to escape the guilt and the torment, to seek release and relief rather than redemption (say that three times fast).
If Nick gave up his life as a deliberate means of protecting others from what he had become, and to keep his very existence from hurting those he cared for (an idea that had been explicitly referred to earlier in the episode), then his actions are motivated by a sincere desire to avoid doing more harm.
The question comes down to this - was his self-chosen death in that time and place, under those circumstances, an act of cowardice, or extreme courage? If he was a coward, seeking the easy way out to escape guilt, pain, and loss, then he's a suicide. If his sacrifice - much like Joan of Arc's (hey, remember that flashback?), was motivated by courage, and a willingness to accept death to make the world a better place, then it was sacrifice.
In that sense, while a human may be damned for committing suicide (because they are throwing away their God-given life and defying His will), perhaps the only way any vampire can EVER be redeemed is to commit willful suicide (choosing to end their own unnatural and evil life, rather than cling to it until it is taken away by someone else).
Personally, based solely on his reactions and the things he says at the very end, I have trouble seeing his death as anything other than a suicide. It seems clear he's not making a noble sacrifice as much as he's finally breaking under the weight of centuries of guilt, and his despair over the death of the woman he loved (at his own hands).
Whether that means he's damned, redeemed, reincarnated (like Francesca), or reduced to nothingness (who says there's actually an afterlife? As LaCroix suggests, the only sure answer to that question can only come after it's too late to turn back. Maybe there's nothing there but ghosts and echoes), is a question left up to the individual viewer.
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I don't think his motive is so obvious. If he is not of sound mind, and who would be under those circumstances, then he is still not responsible for his suicide. Also, it is my opinion that there is an afterlife, but only my opinion. I can't prove it anymore than a non-believer can disprove it.
It seems to me he sacrificed he life because he didn't want to go on anymore. Technically it was an assisted-suicide. As an atheist this doesn't bother me but presuming there was some Catholicism here (I just finished the last ep, but it was the only ep I watched all the way through, I was getting "A feel" for this show). Not only did it end in an extremely depressing way, but also in a "well, I have faith that I'll go to heaven to be with her"
At least the final words were "Damn you" from the older vamp (his maker? See, that's how little about the show I know, but given the context of his death I don't see it as self-sacrifice at all!)
I respect your opinion and interpretation but I disagree. As I see it, he knew that he would be forever cursed to walk the earth as a vampire without the love and help of the one person who could help and support him. Rather than go on with an accursed existence, killing more innocent people, he decided to end it. To me, that is self-sacrifice.
I am a Roman Catholic and perhaps that's why I see it differently from you. I believe the writers wanted to leave it open to the interpretation of the individual viewers. I am satisfied with my viewpoint and you are satisfied with yours. It's a fictional story so either or neither of us could be right, and I'm content to leave it at that. Thank you for your honest and thoughtful opinion.
Well based on the final episode, he's either dead and damned, or LaCroix did kill him after Nick killed Natalie, then Nick would still have some repenting to do, but he asked LaCroix to finished what he started by bringing Natalie across but he drank too much of her blood, and there was nothing LaCroix could do, he told Nick it was time to move on, but Nick wanted to die, it was left open to interpretation as to whether laCroix actually put the the stake into Nick, LaCroix always said he would never let Nick go. Natalie was dead and Nick is the one that killed her.
Your points are valid, but it was either that or infect her and make her a vampire, which would have damned her soul, a greater sin than murder in Christianity. I believe Nick would be forgiven, but it was a fantasy TV show and a situation that would never exist in reality. It's a philosphical exercise, but that does not discredit your very valid description of the facts.
In the episode when Nick was told he still needed to atone for the lives he took, he was shown a grave yard of souls the entity he met never said it was death it only appeared to Nick as something he made up in his mind, the first time he died it was a woman and the second time it was an apparition of LaCroix.
God would rule an angel of death, It was clearly explained to Nick by the apparition, it was just a guide to the afterlife if Nick had atoned for all the souls he had taken he would have been absolved of his sins, told this in the show, it is fantasy but I'm talking in the context of the show. If he had gone with the guide the first time he died he would have been saved. He was told as much the second he would not.
He was a human the first time he died and told he would be saved, the second time he died, he was a vampire and he was told he would not unless he atoned for all those souls, and there hundreds and Nick wasn't happy to hear what he was told.
It was left as an ambiguous ending, he didn't have to infect Natalie or bring her across Nick was getting ready to "Move On" as the vampire state, they start over,
Natalie wanted to go with Nick and begged him again to bring across, he drank too much and she died. He didn't mean to kill her, but he did.
I'm an atheist, and I take all these stories, the bible, etc. as just that fantasies, fables, and allegories as to how people should live. They're entertaining, to be quite honest I always thought Nick had buyer's remorse, he should have known to never bet the devil your head, because the devil always wins.
Anyone who has a sickness wants a cure. I am in a wheelchair. With that and some things about my birth defect, I can do some things a lot easier than a non-disabled person such as getting around some places easier and faster. I don't want to just "suck it up" and stay the way I am. I'd trade all I can do as a disabled person for being able to be well. It is the same with Nick. Vampirism, in this t.v. series is portrayed as possibly an illness and Nick wants a cure. As a vampire, he could not repay his debt to society. That is something he never learned. Natalie constantly warned him that using his vampiric powers, although that did save people, it brought him no closer to becoming cured and those same vampire powers, in the past, caused the death of the innocent people he was trying to repay his debt too.
Drinking cow blood is, fundamentally, no different from eating beef. In fact, it could be seen as better, since you could technically do it without killing the cow. Furthermore, as long as he kept drinking it, Nick had SUPERPOWERS with which to continue his quest to repay his debt to society, and was immortal so he could continue to repay it indefinitely (if he became mortal, there's no way he'd ever save more people than he'd killed (short of stoping a nuclear detonation single-handed).
The only real disadvantage: he couldn't go out in the sun. But, if he was really concerned with repaying society, he should have just sucked it up and accepted the fact that he wasn't going to get to go out in the daytime.
You admit in a later post you haven't seen all the episodes. Without that knowledge, you don't know the whole story. Very bad things happened to Nick in the final season, which I won't spoil in the clear but they made a difference to him in his final choices. The series was redeemed from the point they realized they were cancelled and the uneven writing gave way to outstanding storytelling again. The final storytelling curve from Fever on was magnificent.
The final season spoilers are below.
Jeanette left, deeding The Raven to LaCroix. Nick was possessed by a demon, he was shot in the head and lost his memory, believing he was human. According to the series notes he had relations with Natalie while he believed himself human. It didn't stick, though. He went outside and got burned and had to drink blood to heal himself. Nick turned to LaCroix to fill in the blanks. This combined with the possession brought a new darkness to Nick. Jeanette returned and she had become human through falling in love with a mortal man. Jeanette was killed and Nick brought her across again, against her wishes. Jeanette was unhappy with this outcome.
All Nick's vampire friends died when LaCroix's child, Divia, and vampire maker arrived to destroy him and everyone he knew. Nick's partner, Tracy Vetter, died in a police department shooting Nick blamed on himself. Nick and Natalie decided to attempt the cure. Nick accidentally killed Natalie by taking too much blood, LaCroix staked Nick and he walked into the rising sun. (This is the writer's version.) Depressing enough for you?
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James Parriott created the series. That's what he says occurred in the final episode: everyone died. We the fans have speculated that it didn't have to happen that way. Everything else is our own denial and fantasy of survival. I've given you the straight information from the mind of the man who wrote 'Last Knight.' Take it up with him if you like. Parriott was sick and tired of having his show hang about waiting in limbo so he decided to make certain there was no way for it to be resurrected. He did so with a deadly script that destroyed every main character. The supporting characters were killed off in 'Fever' and 'Ashes to Ashes.'
FYI, I neither write FK fanfic nor do I smoke. However, I do have what passes for the FK series Bible. Indeed, Nick and Natalie had sex in the episode 'Night In Question.' Look it up if you're fortunate enough to have one on hand. (I went to incredible lengths to obtain my copy.) Most people don't believe it exists. Au contraire, it does and in the fourth season the consequences of that night together were to be addressed. It's in the dialogue as well. It's easily interpreted:
'But last night, we were together.' Nick, trying to solve the puzzle of what Natalie is to him, 'together' being a euphemism for lovers.
'Yes, I thought we'd finally won,'* Natalie disappointed and distraught.
The rules about sex on television were very different in 1996 from now. A generation has come and gone since then, something evidently beyond your ken and your Barbie, too. It's a classic case of the Historian's Fallacy, viewing the past from today's mores and morals.
OK, so what about this? If Nick didn't bring Jeanette across, how did the daVinci portrait of her return to his possession? Jeanette had possession of it, remember? When they separated in the flashback, Jeanette took it with her. You must pay little attention to dialogue or perhaps you've forgotten what happened in the episodes. Jeanette was fatally shot and Nick told her he would bring her across again. She told him no. Nick ignored her wishes and she was furious with him.
You missed the conversation between LaCroix and Nick in which they discuss how Jeanette brought the portrait to his loft and dropped it off when Nick wasn't home. That part was in LaCroix's line, 'So I've lost a daughter and regained a son' because Jeanette was no longer his child but Nick's vampire daughter. When Nick brought her across so he was acting like a vampire again so LaCroix was pleased.
If you don't know the history of FK, that's not my problem. This is what happened whether you care to believe me or not. I know these facts because I've been around since then. Did you know that FK is the origin of shipping characters together? Yeah, whatever.
*This dialogue is from my memory and may not be perfectly accurate. My FK DVDs are unavailable due to home renovations. Unfortunately, FK is also unavailable at Netflix for streaming. This is close, especially the 'together' part. Perhaps someone else with access to their recordings would be kind enough to post the exact conversation, word-for-word?
Gwenn Musicante wrote the book. Forever Knight A Reference Guide.
I paid list price for all my DVDs, $25.95 plus shipping for each season including the 3rd. Fewer were printed by Sony, that's why the price is so high now.
Vampires dream, that's FK canon.
I've no idea what you're referring to in your condescending mention of 'clubs.' I'm a member of FORKNI-L but I came to it late. The death of Susan Garrett took the heart out of it.
Had you been polite I might have gone to the trouble of searching out the information from Gwenn Musicante's book here but I shan't bother.