MovieChat Forums > Billy Bathgate (1991) Discussion > Compared to other Dutch Shultz movies

Compared to other Dutch Shultz movies


Hi, How does this movie compare as far as accuracy with "Hoodlum"? What about other Dutch Schultz movies?

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This is probably (unless there are more movies with him featured) the best dutch schultz movie your going to see, Hoodlum was a fictional story though some of the characters are real, there was a movie called "The Outfit" with Lance (every sci-fi movie ever) Heriksen playing Dutch Schults but that was horrible other than that I don't know of any other movies on the "Beer Baron"

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Schultz is also portrayed in Coppola's 'The Cotton Club', yet the performance is a bit too cartoonish and the character is drawn in a very one-dimensional manner.

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Which movie shows the death of Dutch Shultz accurately? The answer is a composite of this movie and Hoodlum. Both movies got some details right while contradicting each other by getting an oppisite detail wrong.

Hoodlum is accurate that indeed, Dutch Shultz was shot in the back inside the men's room and he walked away, sat down and passed out.(Newspapers printed the actual pictures of him sitting at the table.) He did not come blazing out of the bathroom and end up being shot on the floor like in Billy Bathgate.

However Billy Bathgate is accurate because Dutch Shultz did not die alone. Otto Berman and Lulu Rosenkrantz were real people who were whacked during the same hit.(I'm not sure if Irving was a real person or not.) (I haven't seen Hoodlum in a few years, but I think Dutch is the only person whacked inside the Palace Chop house in that movie.)
Also the hit did go down after midnight, and Dutch Shultz died in the hospital within 18 hours of being shot. If I recall Hoodlum shows the shooting as being in broad daylight.

A question I would be more interested in knowing the answer to, is who's portrayl of Dutch Shultz's behaviour was more accurate. Dustin Hoffman or Tim Roth. Or would you go with another performance in a different movie as being the most accurate portrayl?

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As far as accuracy goes, Tim Roth got the age right ( he was in his early thirties playing Schultz) he was 33 when he died. Schultz was said to be very articulate and smart and a book worm despite acting like a thug when a situation called for it. Irving was a real person ( Abe "Misfit" Landau was his real name). Though it would be interesting if they did a film solely on Schultz, but giving the details available that might be hard to pull off.

Interesting note: One of his old beer warehouses here in nyc has been turned into a dance club, bet he never saw that one coming! :)

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Billy Bathgate and Hoodlum each get aspects of Schultz right but a combination of the two would serve as much more accurate. Billy Bathgate, to a degree, taps into the kind of paternal nature that Schultz seemed to exhibit sometimes; an A&E documentary a few years back had an interview with a man who briefly befriended Schultz when he was a teenager, and Schultz used to visit his father's ranch to ride horses (this was during the period Schultz was buttering up Syracuse, as seen in Billy Batgate, where the town name is changed to Onondaga). The man recalled that one day, he and Schultz were out riding horses when a photographer jumped out of some bushes and took photos of them. Schultz got down off of his horse, grabbed the photographer's camera, and destroyed the film, saying that while he was well aware of his own reputation, he wasn't going to have the boy's reputation sullied through association. Also, much more famously, the last straw that broke the camel's back in Schultz's street war with Vincent Coll was when Coll shot to death a five year old boy who got in the way. For this, Schultz had Coll literally chopped in half with machine gun fire.

A large part of this nature, which is never addressed in either the book or movie of Billy Bathgate, is that Schultz himself, until the age of fifteen, was a doting daddy's boy and all around pretty good apple. It was only when the elder Flegenheimer left the family, essentially telling them that he didn't particularly love any of them, that Schultz seemed to "snap" and go down the road to gangsterdom.

On the other hand, Schultz was also notoriously crude around his associates, not always very charismatic, and had some serious sadistic tendencies. One of his rivals suffered the gruesome fate of being strung up by his thumbs with puss from Schultz's gonhorrea infection smeared in his eyes (that poor sap went blind), and Julie Martin, the giant thug who Schultz shoots in the hotel in Billy Bathgate, was found with his heart carved out, an act which Schultz later admitted committing to his lawyer.

Physically, neither is terribly close. A person I know met Dustin Hoffman once and reported him to be especially short for a man--roughly five foot one--whereas Schultz, although a slight man, was about 5'6-5'7. He was also stocky, though, whereas Roth played him fairly skinny; though not gargantuan, Schultz was a fairly bulky individual, weighing around 190, according to his wanted poster. If you want to see Schultz "in action," that A&E documentary I mentioned has what might be the only videoclip of him, which, although only about eight seconds long, speaks volumes about the man; he looks almost like a gorilla in his build, and when he turns his head in the direction of the camera, his eyes remain fixed in another direction for a split second before they appear to "roll" sideways in his skull to align with the direction the rest of his body is facing. Unfortunately, no mention has ever been given in true crime literature to his voice, aside from the fact that he had a pronounced accent that caused him to pronounce "germs" as "goims" and "had to" as "hadda."

Hoodlum and BB, as the above poster said, each get certain aspects of his death right. BB portrays Schultz running out, guns blazing, and getting shot to death. In reality, evidence points to him getting shot while taking a whiz in the urinal. Hoodlum portays Schultz's henchman, Lulu Rosenkrantz, turning on him and killing him, a myth propagated by an old "Untouchables" episode. In fact, Rosenkrantz died alongside Schultz, and even took more damage: Whereas Schultz was only shot once, Rosenkrantz took repeated shotgun blasts at close range, an entire cylinder of .38 bullets, and still managed to drag himself to the pay phone to call 911 before passing out (a marvel of 1930s medicine, he lived for some 25 hours). Hoodlum does accurately portray, to a degree, Schultz's response to being shot: He went down, then pulled himself up, buttoned his fly, and staggered out into the bar, where he sat down and then promptly fell face-first onto his table (a photo of a mortally wounded Schultz, head turned sideways, arm outstretched, has become infamous in gangland photography)

Abe Landau, called Irving in both the book and movie of Billy Bathgate (anyone know why? I was told that apparently Landau has surviving relatives and that this was done for legal reasons) also died alongside Schultz; he was the first to expire, and it's still not decided upon whether he died at the scene or en route. A popular version of the story has him bleeding to death in front of the bar, which is plausible; one of the rounds that hit him, a .38 special, entered his shoulder and exited his neck, severing the carotid artery, and another round struck him in the wrist, opening up the veins there. Arriving officers found Landau sitting on top of a trash can outside the bar, where he fell after chasing the gunmen out of the building.

Otto Berman, portrayed radically different than in real life (in the real world, he was roughly five-foot-four, weighed nearly 300lbs, and was a notorious boozer and womanizer) also died alongside Schultz, taking a shotgun blast and some bullet wounds. In the end of the book of Billy Bathgate, E.L. Doctorow (perhaps intentionally) switches the positions in which Berman and Schultz were found; Berman is the one slumped on the table, whereas in real life he was shot before he could stand up from his table, and was found by the authorities sprawled out on the floor. Overall, despite the historical inaccuracy, I must say that Doctorow's treatment of Berman is one of my favorite literary characters.

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Awesome post. Learned more about Schultz than I ever knew.

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yes it is a very detailed post. Some things to point out though:

The associate who had the unfortunate circumstance of being hung by his thumbs went blind from a patch with an infection from an unkown source, not from Schultz directly ( might have been a typo there) and Irving did bleed to death, he was sitting on a trash can outside the Tavern and went medics arrived he gave a false name and died on the way to the hospital. People who knew Schultz have commented on his voice and deepness of it, but unfortunately nothing exists on record. The A&E documentary is really good and you can find some valuable info on him in certain crime books. He isn't as well documented as other figures are unfortunately.

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From what I hear Duth Schltz was a odd mannered nut case, that dressed horrbily and Roth did a solid job portaying him. Dustin Hoffman was very well dressed and clean cut for the role, therefore it was less accurate of Dutch.

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ntpicking on accuracy ,otherwise i gots no beef with thee,

your comment (this was during the period Schultz was buttering up Syracuse, as seen in Billy Batgate, where the town name is changed to Onondaga)


syracuse was not the town he was schmoozing, it was malone ny, north of massena, local folk were still talking about the trial 20 odd years later in massena, when i was up there on the st lawrence seaway project.

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He probably just got confused. Schultz went on trial in Syracuse, as well. You are correct, however, that Malone was where Schultz got himself acquitted by buttering up the townsfolk.

You really must tell us some of your memories about what the townsfolk were saying.

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Honestly, any movie with gangster Dutch Schultz has never been any good.

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I'd rate it ahead of Hoodlum, and I really liked Dustin Hoffman in the title role. Loren Bean (Billy Bathgate) was also pretty good as the Dutch-admiring wanna-be, and how many guys would complain about seeing Nicole Kidman in the buff?

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